how to handle business and friendship

Transcript

In the consult, we discuss cases involving violence, sexual violence, abduction, and murder. Sometimes the cases we discuss involve children. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to The Consult. I'm Julia Cowley, retired FBI agent and profiler, and I'm joined today by detective Ben Pender of the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office. And, Ben, thank you for being here with me today. Good to be here. Thank you for having me. So a little bit of background. Ben works cold case homicide and missing persons cases, and I invited him to come on the show to share the story of Sherry Black and Sherry was murdered on November 30, 2010 in the bookstore she owned and operated with her husband, Earl Black in South Salt Lake City, Utah. And this was a case I had the opportunity to profile alongside another FBI agent during my time in the behavioral analysis unit. And while that agent isn't here with us today, I am very glad to have Ben who played a key role in solving Sherry's case alongside other investigators. And he's here to walk us through the investigation. So thank you again. This was, a very tragic case. Yeah. Absolutely. It was. And thanks for having me. So what I'd like to start is just a little bit about you, Ben. And can you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into law enforcement? Yeah. You know, I really didn't have a aspiration, I guess, to go into law enforcement when I was younger. Probably right around when I was 18, 19 years old when, I have a sister that was a police dispatcher and that asked if I could go on a couple of ride alongs with an officer just kind of at that point in my life trying to kind of figure out what direction I wanted to go, but wanted to try to investigate a little bit prior to getting into anything. So I went on a couple of ride alongs. I found interest in that. I was working full time and actually put myself through the police academy at that point. So I would work all day. And then in the evenings, I would go to cla*s. And on the weekends, go to class for the police academy and eventually graduated from there and obtain my, certificate. So at that point, I wanted to ultimately get on with the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office. That was my goal. And I actually was offered a position in the Salt Lake County Jail after I had graduated, and I accepted that. But again, I ultimately wanted to be out on the road. So the sheriff's office at that time, it's different much different than it is today. But at that time, they generally had 1, maybe 2 openings. And when I went to test for the road, there was about 12 to 1300 applicants that showed up to take the test for 1 or 2 positions. And I I was told that if you weren't in the top 1 or 2, you most likely would not get picked up. So on that roster, I ended up as number 11 and accepted another job actually in South Salt Lake, police department because I wanted to get on to the road and didn't think I'd be able to get on with the sheriff's office at this point. And worked at South Salt Lake Police Department for about 9 months and was called by the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office, told that they were down to number 11 if I was interested, which I was, and, ended up over here at the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office. So that's kind of how I got into law enforcement itself. And when I first got into law enforcement, I had to do the things that most officers or deputies have to do when they're newly hired and that's to work patrol. And that's really where you kind of get a good foundation of the laws and you kind of respond on a little bit of everything. So you kind of get exposed to a lot of different areas, which again, I think is a really good foundation. And from there I had interest in traffic. So I went to the traffic division and ultimately ended up riding motors. And so I do a lot of traffic accident investigation and would do traffic enforcement along with a lot of the other special events that would go along with that. I did that for about 10 years and following that, I was kinda looking for a little bit of a change and put in for DEA. We have a task force that we participate in with DEA, and I went up to DEA for about 2 years. And 2 years into a 5 year assignment of DEA, I was contacted by the homicide sergeant who asked if I would be willing to come over to homicide for a short period of time because at that point, they wanted to have another detective start investigating cold cases. And I'd never had any interest in that area my entire career. It never crossed my mind. So I actually turned him down, and I said, I appreciate the offer, but I'm not interested. I really like in what I'm doing up here in DEA at the task force and narcotics, and I really wanted to stay put there. And he said at the time, the current sheriff indicated that they the only way they could start having a detective work quote case is exclusively was to have somebody else fill that spot within the division. I happen to fall into that division. So after kind of back and forth and agreeing to a total of 6 months and guaranteed that I would go right back to the EA and actually get an extension on my time because I was doing a favor for this, homicide sergeant. I reluctantly said I will do it for 6 months. And I came and started working in the homicide division the first 6 months. And from there, I begged to stay. I actually loved it. And I spent about 10 years there before moving over to cold case homicide where the other detective had been promoted. So I filled that position, worked at the cold cases, and I've been doing that for the last 2 years. So I'm curious. Why did you think you didn't wanna work homicide? And then what about working homicides changed your mind? Yeah. I had just never really thought of that as a career path for me. I just never really thought I'd had any interest in any of that kind of work. I just I I really don't have a great answer other than it was it really something I wanted to pursue in my career, and I I recognize there are people that that's all they wanna do. But one thing I did learn from that is and and I tell other officers and other people I talked to who have interest in law enforcement, I I tell them to keep an open mind because you may really have your heart set on going to one area, but you will get somewhere else where it's a better fit for you, and it's something that maybe you'll really enjoy more than the place you thought you were gonna be. Yeah. I I think that is great advice because when I started in the FBI, I came in with what I would consider more of a violent crime background, and I was hoping to work violent crime, although I knew I would probably end up working some sort of white collar crime because that's where most new agents were being assigned. And I ended up working for several years, public corruption and civil rights, never thinking or considering that that would be what I would want to do. And I ended up loving it. And those were the types of investigations that I felt taught me how to become a good investigator. So I, I love your advice. Like, keep an open mind. You may think you don't wanna do something, and you get that opportunity and you realize I do really love it. So I I think that's great advice that you give people. Had it not been for that particular sergeant that put a little pressure on me to come in for the 6 months, I don't think I'd be here today. So I really credit him with being able to maybe see something in me that might have needs. That's great. And I mean I mean, clearly, you know, you're you're sitting here today and this case has been solved. So what a great thing that I mean, I'm so glad that you were forced to come over. It's what a good thing. I mean, things happen for a reason. Sometimes they, you know, I believe that I believe I know, I think, okay. This is happening for a reason, good or bad, but it kinda tells me you were probably meant to be involved in this case in some way, shape, or form. Maybe I that's a little too mystical for some people, but that's what I believe, you know, that make the most of things and good things will come of it. So and how did you become involved in Sherry Black's case? Yeah. So when it happened in 2010, I was actually still in the homicide division at that time. So this actually occurred in South Salt Lake. And like I previously mentioned, it's an agency that I had worked for at the very beginning of my career. So I was very familiar with that agency. I actually was born and raised in a particular city in South Salt Lake. So my parents, resided there until they passed. I lived there up until just a few years ago. So I've spent a majority of my life in that city. So I'm very familiar with it. But when this case happened, I really didn't have a whole lot to do with it because, again, I was in the homicide division. I do recall South Salt Lake calling a meeting with a number of different homicide investigators from surrounding agencies to come meet with them. And they did discuss this case. That's the only time I believe initially that I was involved was that first meeting. And then from there, the detective that was assigned to cold cases actually started helping South Salt Lake with that. Now as time went on, that detective got promoted. I kind of got put into the cold case unit and started then kind of taking his role in just assisting South Salt Lake at that time. So probably right around the 2015 time period, I actually had attended a symposium in Washington DC. And during those symposiums, they have a number of different vendors that are there, you know, settling or trying to convince people to purchase, you know, their their goods and stuff. And some are good and some are questionable, I guess. But one particular company kind of caught my attention, and it was called Parabon. And what Parabon said they could do at that time is they said they could take somebody's DNA, and they could provide what they call is an image. And when I say an image, I'm not talking about a photograph. I'm talking about an image. And so with the image, they would give you a prediction, like a percentage of the color of the hair the person would have or the facial features or the skin tone or freckles or the shape of maybe a features or the skin tone or freckles or the shape of maybe a nose or maybe lips or something like that. I mean, they kinda give you but they give you percentages on that. So I think it helps, and I was intrigued by that. And at that time, again, I was only helping South Salt Lake. It wasn't my case. I wasn't the lead, I guess, I should say. But I went back and provided them with that information. They had interest in it as well. I came to my administration and said, hey, can we flip the bill to get this? Because, you know, cost is an issue for, I think, a lot of agencies. So my agency was able to pay to get this done and Paragon provided us with an image. When we got that image at that point, South Salt Lake did not wanna release it for whatever reasons, but at that point, they just kinda wanted to keep it for, you know, the investigators point of view and these things that we wanted to follow-up on. And that's kind of what occurred with that. Fast forward to 2017 which was the 7th anniversary of Sherry Black's homicide, South Salt Lake and Unified Police which is it's kind of confusing. But, I was part of Unified Police because that's where the sheriff's office had to migrate to for a time, but now it's back to the sheriff's office. So we held a joint press conference with the family. And prior to that, we contacted Terabon and had a couple of more of those images produced with a little bit of some age range. So it wasn't just indicating that it was a younger person because we didn't know the age. So they provided 3 different renderings of this image. 1 in the twenties, another one probably in their late thirties, and one in the early fifties years of age. These were shown at this press release. The Miller family was able to come up with a extremely lucrative reward for somebody providing information that leads to the arrest. I believe it was $250,000 And we ended up getting a number of tips. Probably, I think it was around 65 or 70 tips we got in that particular case. Unfortunately, none of them materialized, but we still followed up on all of them. Unfortunately, a number of people would see the image and would look at it as a photograph. And so we were getting calls indicating that this was somebody's neighbor or somebody in their congregation, a church, or whatever it may be, a coworker. So we followed up on all those leads. Unfortunately, none of that came forward as far as being able to help us in this case. Before we go on to how you eventually did solve it, I would like you to take us back to November 30, 2010, describe the events of that day and what happened with Sherry. And you had mentioned the Miller family and we'll talk about Sherry's victimology after we talk about the crime scene. And one of the things that was looked at in terms of Sherry's victimology is that she was the mother-in-law of the owner of the Utah Jazz professional basketball team. So this made this a higher profile case and perhaps some other cases, and it also contributed to looking at her victimology. Could this be related because she's high profile person? But I just wanna clarify when you mentioned the Miller family, that's her family, her in laws. So they've played a big role, and we'll talk a little bit more about that at the end as well because a lot has come about as a result of Sherry's murder in terms of the Miller family and the black family giving back to the community. But, anyway, take us back to the crime scene, what happened that day, you know, how Sherry was found. It's 2025 and a new year means brand new opportunities. And for a lot of you out there, I know you've been thinking about one thing over the holidays, and that is starting your own business. But you have so many questions like, how do I get started? How do I come up with a brand? How do I even sell stuff to people? And what am I even going to sell? Now, take a deep breath. Shopify has got you. Shopify makes it simple to create your brand open for business and get your first sale. And you can get your store up and running easily with thousands of customizable templates. You don't have to be a coding nerd or a design geek to get this done. All you need to do is drag and drop. Shopify also helps with the details like shipping, taxes, and payments from one single dashboard so you can focus on the important stuff like growing your business. Established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com/ truecrime, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com/truecrime to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com/truecrime. Yeah. So this occurred, it was on a Tuesday, November 30, 2010. And the time that the initial call came in to meet the 911 dispatcher was at 1:33 PM is when Earl had found Sherry. And Earl being her husband. Earl is, Sherry's husband. They've they've had this bookstore for a number of years. It actually started out as a bowling shop, so they'd have bowling balls. And that's who they purchased it from was the previous owner of that. And it kind of changed over into the doing the billiards. But then Sherry got involved in the books and really had a knack for it and really knew what she was looking for. And ultimately, the billiards really kind of even though Earl Black, her husband was still doing some of that stuff, the books really took over the bookstore and then some. I mean, another building even on their property as well. So again, she really knew what she was doing and had an eye for that. So Earl indicated that that morning when people left the residence or was getting ready to leave, he indicated that Sherry was actually still in her pajamas. The phone had had rang and picked it up and answered it. And it happened to be a customer that he was familiar with who wanted to speak with Sherry. So he gave the phone over to Sherry, and his customer had asked if he could come and pick up a book from Sherry that morning. And she said that would be fine. So Earl leaves around, I believe it's 9:30, 9:40 in the morning, and he's leaving because he has a billiards job. He's going to, I believe, put together a pool table for somebody on the southwest end of the valley. So it's probably 10 to 15 miles away from his residence. So he has an employee that he has utilized and worked with with for many, many years, like 15, 20 years. And went to pick up this employee. We picked him up. They ended up driving out to where this job was to be done. And following that job, they did end up getting some gas at a service station and a drink. And then they stopped over at another location a little bit closer back to where Earl resides for some other billiards job that he had to do as well for a short time. But he arrives home then at 1:30, 1:33 is when he arrives home. And when him and the employee who is still with him pull into the driveway, they notice that on the outside of the exterior window, the neon sign indicating that it's open has been turned off. And so we're doing a lot of work. And so we're doing a lot of work. And so we're doing a lot of work. And so we're doing a lot of work. And so we're doing a lot of work. And so we're doing a lot of work. And so we're doing a lot of work. And she was still there. So Earl's kind of routine was when he got home from jobs, he would go over to the bookstore and open the front door and let Sherry know that he was back. And he did that, but there was no response. So he thought, well, maybe she's at the house because the way the bookstore is set up, they have their home. And then to the south of their home on their property, they have this little bookstore. And then to the south of that, there's another building that used to be a little bit of a home, but it was converted into kind of a storage unit, a big storage unit for additional books. So he went over to the house, called in for Sherry, no response, went back to the bookstore, went inside this time through the front door and started looking for Sherry. As he was looking for Sherry, he noticed what he had believed to be some type of red stain or blood on the exterior of a backroom door, and they have 2 back rooms. So they have 1 if you walk in the front door of the bookstore and go straight, you're walking to the west, and that's the west backroom, and that's where Sherry was located. We opened the door, went into the back room and he sees Sherry laying on her back with a pair of Sherry scissors stuck in her chest. And at that point, he was able to determine he knew she was deceased. So Earl actually removed the scissors. He was wearing a leather jacket that he took off and put over sharing. And he called 911 to report this to the police. South Salt Lake, then police department in response to the scene. They make sure they get Earl out of the, residents in the bookstore and go in and verify what's going on. They come back out, they lock the scene down and they lock the scene down in these cases, meaning the entire scene. So the house, the bookstore, and even that other storage unit, they lock it down because they want to get a search warrant before they go back in and process the scene. There's sometimes there's questions as far as who owns it and generally law enforcement, we don't wanna have those issues come up. So it's easier for us in the long run to get a search warrant upfront signed by a judge prior to making it true. And that's what happened in this case since they, again, knocked the scene down. A detective was contacted, responded out and wrote a search warrant. In this particular case, Cell Salt Link, they actually contacted the Utah Bureau of Forensic Services, which is our state crime lab. They recognized this was a very large scene and had contacted them for assistance to respond out and have them assist in processing the scene. So in that back room, there was a large amount of blood, a large amount of blood spatter. It was all over a number of books. There was a broken bottle near Sherry. Clearly, not only did Sherry sustain the stabbing in the chest, she's sustained about 15 stabbles on her body, under her neck area. Her jugular had been cut. And ultimately, I mean, there was a number of blunt force trauma as well. So it was a very disturbing scene that Earl walked into to see his life. I have a comment and a question. 1st, really well done job by South Salt Lake in securing this scene and processing this scene. And the broken bottle, was it the impression of detectives that had been used to inflict cutting wounds, or was that used as an object of blunt force trauma? Because she did suffer, as you said, a lot of blunt force trauma as well. What was their impression? They really knew at the time exactly what the purpose was of that just because of the amount of blood it was broken. So I don't know if they really knew that it was used for this particular thing or that initially, but I think as time went on it was a little bit more clear what that happened to be used for. It was a bottle that was out in the main area of the bookstore, and it was on the shelf. And ultimately, yes, it was used to break over Sherry's staff and could have been used to, even do some cutting as well. Okay. And in terms of her state of dress, how was she found? Yeah. So she was found on her back. She was partially clothed. It wasn't a sexual assault, but we do believe that there was some type of sexual interaction or component to that. Sexual Sexual component to it. Definitely. I mean, I think in the the fact that she was partially undressed, to me, that would be very indicative. And I think sometimes there's a misunderstanding behaviorally just because an actual sexual assault didn't occur doesn't mean there's not a sexual component and it doesn't mean it's not sexually motivated. And the fact how she was found would be very indicative of sexually motivated. And I mean, so you have to treat it as if she was likely sexually assaulted. Correct. Yeah. And what else did you find at the crime scene? So there was a belt, and that really became a big issue. Initially, there was a brown knock off our money exchange belt, and it was actually just outside of that backroom area, kind of in a corner this and and the the store was just I mean, it had tons of books. Sherry didn't really have them, like, in a file folder or or a file of any sort that she could, you know, go back to. But one thing about Sherry is she knew where everything was in her head. So if you went and asked for a book and she had it, she knew exactly where it was. But if you or I walked in and tried to figure out where those books would be, we'd have no idea. So she had her own way of keeping track of things that way. So, again, that this belt became a big issue. A number of research was done on the belt from everywhere. It ended up being our money exchange knock off. So it wasn't our money exchange, went to a lot of different thrift stores. And there was a number on the back of that, meaning, like a 3 digit number, like a product number or something and try to identify where that number would have come from. And that belt never was actually figured out where it came from itself. However, it was tested, and DNA ultimately was on that belt from Sherry and from the suspect in this place. But it was not something that was part of the store originally. That was something that was left by the offender. Correct. It's it's interesting because there's I mean, we'll talk a little bit about the autopsy and what that showed, but there were no signs of strangulation if I recall correctly. That's correct. It's just interesting what you know, why was he wearing his belt? Why did he take it off? Was he interrupted? I mean, it's just interesting. I mean, there's there's a lot going on. And I and I remember when I went out there and we went to the bookstore, it had not been disturbed at all. I mean, it had been processed by crime scene, but it was exactly how it was left. And to kinda paint a picture, there was so much stuff in it. It was a kind of a maze of things and books piled up and different things like you like old antique bottles and different items. And so you kinda had you weave your way through, and then you go into the back where she was found. So this was not an easy scene to process, and it probably was a difficult scene to determine, okay, what was already here and what could the offender possibly have left? Because there was a lot of stuff in there. That's right. And I think for the longest time, nobody really knew if a suspect had left anything else behind. We didn't believe so because of the family had that we detectives at the time had talked to the family about what they had found and and, tried to identify that. But, yeah, as far as get the suspect taken anything, like I said, Sherry would have known, but she's probably the only one that would have known if something was missing. Yeah. Especially with her filing system that she kept in her head. She would have known right away, but everybody else probably had to figure this out is that but an Armani knockoff belt really wouldn't be the type of item that she would likely have been selling in her store. So it probably stood out as, like, we probably should take that item of evidence. What did the autopsy determine ultimately? So the autopsy occurred on December 1st. Sherry had been transported to the medical examiner's office, and then doctor Todd Gray is the one that performed the autopsy. Sherry sustained 7 stab wounds, incised wounds of the head and face. Doctor. Greg indicated that there was no penetration on the cranial or intracranial injuries. However, he also stated there was 8 stab wounds, incised wounds on the right and left neck. A transsection of her left jugular vein and carotid artery, perforation of epiglottis and tracheal cartilage, stab wound to the upper right abdomen, perforated liver, stomach, duodenum, and minimum hemorrhage associated with the injury, an incised wound that was 2 on the right hand and one on the left hand. And most likely, those are probably defensive units ones that would have been fighting with him. Again, blunt force injuries, multiple lacerations of the scalp and face. Like I said, no intracranial injuries. There was a nasal fracture, contusion of the left upper arm and elbow, contusion of the upper central abdomen, contusion of the left upper extremity, scattered abrasions of right and left lower legs. Really, really, really suffer, unfortunately, with what those. Yeah. And I mean, what's interesting, what we looked at and considered is that you have multiple weapons being used. Potentially you have the scissors, the broken bottle, you had multiple means of killing or stabbing and blunt force trauma. There's a lot going on and it was overkill. Absolutely. Would is that how you would describe? That's how I saw it. I thought that was overkill in this case. And the other thing, because she had the defensive wounds, she, you know, she fought, she saw it coming. And it's interesting that the offender didn't bring the weapons. They were weapons of opportunity, which kind of indicated to us. It wasn't something that was a plan in place or at least a long term plan, but, you know, just grabbing, maybe the offender had a plan to go in there and do something, but didn't know what, and then took the opportunity, grabbed weapons of opportunity, but it wasn't something he was carrying around and had planned to do. So those were our initial impressions. Right. The one thing I wanna bring up about a case like this when you see something that's so violent and so brutal with these, you know, multiple weapons used, multiple means of inflicting damage on a victim, a lot of times people think, oh, that must be a very experienced type of killer. But oftentimes, we look at that. Maybe they're younger and and they're experimenting with their their killing and maybe beyond the younger end. So that's how we were viewing it. We didn't think that because it was so brutal and so gratuitous, that didn't necessarily mean to us that this was an experienced killer. That was our, you know, our initial impressions. And not to mention you have this complete lack of control over the victim, which also may speak to the offender's inexperience with this type of crime. Right. And ultimately, the cause of death was homicide and the immediate cause of death was blunt and sharp force injury to head, neck, and torso. And, you know, like you brought up, we look at these types of cases like this where it's just so much overkill, right? It appears to us that it's, you know, there's gotta be some type of personal. It's gotta be maybe a personal something and which leads us then to believe that, you know, there could be a likelihood this person knows everything. If they've gone to all this effort and like I said with everything they did to Sherry, it just seems like so much more unless maybe there was some type of a personal connection there and look at what these cases is, you know, depending upon the scene. And in this case, like I said, I mean, there was so much there that it was difficult to believe that this was just a random person. Right. And it was very rage filled. But, you know, just because someone has that rage and they have that violence doesn't mean there's not, again, a sexual component to this. I kept going back to her state of dress and why, you know, and and this will go to when we look at her victimology and, you you know, you talk about this, it seems so personal, particularly injuries to her head, very personal. And is this somebody close to her? And this is why we look at victimology. But then, to me, the undressing of her that seemed to suggest this is likely not domestic in nature in terms of, like, a fight that was between Sherry and Earl, perhaps. And, of course, you know, we'll talk about her victimology and if the history of abuse or anything like that. But, of course, you have to look at people that are close to her starting with a spouse and then working your way out under these circumstances. But and I don't wanna say I always think this, but when I see that sexual component in a case, I start to think this may be somebody that knows her, but I don't picture that necessarily as a domestic case that escalate domestic violence case that escalated. Not always. I'm just gonna say that this generally, that's my interpretation and I'm it's not always right. I but it's just kind of a general guideline, but I'm sure you had to take into account the family. So let's talk a little bit about her victimology. Sherry was a 64 year old white female. As we've already mentioned, she was married. Can you tell us a little bit more about Sherry's life? Because, obviously, that becomes important in a case like this when you have such a brutal murder. And on its surface, it's like, who on earth could do something like this? And you see you have to dig into her family history and to who she was. Tell us a little bit about her. We made it to 2025, which means it's time to find a relationship with someone who actually gets you on eharmony. I just got back from spending the holidays with my family and spending the rest of my time watching romcoms. While most people might think of romcoms as secret single behavior in the words of Carrie Bradshaw, I actually think it's a great way to consider relationship goals as we get into 2025. I've watched the holiday about a 1000000 times. Jude Law and Cameron Diaz used to be my couple goals, but now I'm relating more and more to Jack Black and Kate Winslet's relationship. That feeling of finding someone who gets you is what Eharmony is all about because that's what true connection feels like, being seen, heard, and understood, Someone you can laugh or cry or cry from laughing with. And eharmony wants you to make genuine, meaningful connections, so they designed their app that way. Their unique compatibility quiz helps you bring out your personality on your profile, which makes it a lot easier to find someone who gets you. Get who gets you on eharmony. Sign up today. Yeah. So Sherry was a wife, a mother, a grandmother, coming up on a great grandmother. She was somebody in the community. And as far as being maybe a high risk victim, I didn't really see that with her. And the reason why is because she wasn't somebody, even though her son-in-law was the owner of the Utah Jazz, she didn't flaunt that around. So you wouldn't know unless you knew Sherry and you knew a little bit of her family, you wouldn't know that about her. So her and her both were pretty I think they had a number of friends and they would do different things with their friends. They were outdoorsy, got to go outdoors and do things, you know, in the, in the summer and winter and hurting unassuming as far as like just not somebody drawing attention to themselves. However, where they resided is they resided at this address. It's 3,466 South 700 East. And I bring that up because that roadway there is 8 lanes. It's about 40, 45 miles per hour. It's a very, very busy road. And where Sherry's Palm and bookstore are located there on the west side of this 700 East, If you didn't know it was there, most likely, you wouldn't go there. So if you're imagining a bookstore like a Barnes and Noble or a, you know, just a commercial bookstore, this wasn't that. This was a very unique, almost like a little boutique, but she had a lot of lot of books. And once in a while, they put a little a frame sign out in the front or something, about the bookstore. But again, the speeds were pretty high along there unless you were really paying attention to what's there, you really wouldn't know. So I've never been in that bookstore until this incident. And, again, I grew up in that area. I was aware that it was there, but I always knew that it was, like, a little of a niche of older books or religious books and stuff like that. So, again, it was kind of that area that it wouldn't probably draw a lot of people in. I think mainly the people that would come to her bookstore were people that knew who she was and or she was somebody they were able to identify that maybe had a book that they had interest in. But other than that, like I said, it really wasn't, something that advertised out there. It it was open to the public, but it wasn't really advertised like you would see something else advertised. So she was kind of in a different type of an area in comparison to other other commercial places like that. The area there is a more places like that. The area there is a more transient area. And what I mean by that is there's a lot of apartments, there's a lot of duplexes, townhomes in that area. And so when I say transient, I don't mean homeless. I mean, the turnover is pretty rapid. So there's people that will be there for 6 months or a year until they decide or wherever they're gonna go or whatever they're gonna do. So there's not a lot of long term residents right there. So behind where they are, I guess, to the west, there is a neighborhood and that's a little bit more of a probably more stability. But along 7th East and on the east side of 7th East as well, it is more of your transient area where people are coming and going. And, and people would walk down 70th east. I mean, it was a fairly traveled where, you know, people would walk down the street. There was a service station and a, and a convenience store down the street. And so people would walk back and forth and front of their place. I'm sure, you know, they get a number of folks throughout the day that would pass by their residence. But other than that, like I said, I, Sherry and Earl, they have a son and they have a daughter who is Heidi. The son had asked away. Heidi was still around. And like I said, they had grandchildren. They had Heidi, and they frequented there. And and they had friends that would frequent there. And Sherry was involved in the community doing community things and those types of things. So, again, I think she was not really a kind of a high a high threat. I I get I really don't. I just kinda think she was just an extremely unfortunate incident that occurred. And like I said, I I wouldn't imagine most people in her position this could ever happen to because of how she lived their life. Right. I would agree. She and in her marriage, there was no history of domestic violence. There were no issues whatsoever. Sherry didn't abuse alcohol or drugs. She didn't have a criminal history. Earl didn't have a criminal history. There was no one close to her that had a criminal history. What I thought posed a risk to her was the store. Now, and that's not a high risk, but that was where her risk was. I mean, she operated this public business, but like you said, and I use this case as an example, all the time when I talk about how important it is in some cases to go see the crime scene, because you, you described this road and there is this store was not like in a strip mall. It was on the same property as their home. And there were other residences around as well, but it was a very busy road and you would have to know it was there. You would, you know, I'm sure people were passing by all the time, but even if you pulled into like the little parking area that was there, if I recall, you wouldn't even know where necessarily where the entrance to the store was. There was a sign there as you mentioned, but it really, it was overgrown and we weren't there all that long after the homicide. It was probably within a little over a year later that we visited the crime scene. But I remember going into the door and it had some branches over it and it was and that was how it was at the time that she was murdered. And so you wouldn't even necessarily know that that was an entrance to a business unless you had been there before or passed by. It's just not something you would just easily find unless you are wandering and sneaking around. And this happened midday, like in the middle of the day or the, you know, morning. So it that would draw attention if someone was poking around and peeping in in the middle of the day. So those were my impressions. Like, you have to know this is here in some way, shape, or form. And and I thought possibly the offender could have been in the store before. But I remember standing in the doorway with my colleague before we entered. We hadn't even gone into the scene, but we're standing like right there at the doorway. We look at each other and I'm like, I don't see how you would know this was an entrance unless you had been here before or you were already familiar with the area. I agree. Yep. It's definitely that. And the other thing that goes along with that, like you said, the store kinda put her at a higher risk. However, the thing that I I'd go back to the store even on is she didn't operate Monday through Friday from 8 to 5 or 8 to 6. She opened and closed kind of as people would call her and say, hey. I need to come to get a book, or you're gonna be around today. So she wouldn't even have normal business hours. So had that customer not called, she probably wouldn't have ever gone out to that bookstore. At least at that time in the morning, she wouldn't have unless she'd had another customer or other things going on that she needed to be out there for. Yeah. And you might not know. Unless the sign was on, you wouldn't even know she was in there. So it be it kind of like starts you start to think again, not doesn't have these regular business hours. She's not on a regular schedule. You had you'd so you'd have to kinda either know she does this or is this is very opportunistic. I'm just gonna go see if this is all I see the sign is on or I saw her go in there. You know, there there's a whole number of things that because again, how would you even know anything was in there if you didn't have some familiarity? Again, I'm, you know, I'm looking at this case before we actually know who the offender is and that these were all of our observations at the time. And by the time we got involved, obviously there's DNA. There was DNA found at the scene, which came back to an unknown male. That's what we knew at the time. And there had been extensive investigation already done. In our opinion, this was a sexually motivated homicide. And a couple other things to point out about this, there was nothing stolen. She was wearing jewelry that wasn't taken. As far as I knew, nothing taken from the store. Is that correct? Right. As far as we know, I guess. Yeah. So sexually motivated homicide didn't seem to be because of her victimology. It didn't seem to be personally motivated, you know, revenge or any kind of longstanding malice toward her. She just didn't have enemies like that. And so, you know, our, as our profile, so to speak, starts to develop, we really thought, okay, you're dealing with a younger offender. Now age range can be difficult because we're really talking about emotional maturity, but we didn't think necessarily the person had killed before because we just found this crime scene to be, as I said, so all over the place, not really well planned out. This was not a, you know, highly organized planned out killer. Again, thinking sort of on the the younger age range. And so we like I said, we weren't sure. We said might have assaulted before and it wouldn't be surprised if he had violence in his personal history or his criminal history, but not necessarily had killed before. This could have been the first time he killed anybody. And the other thing that we thought was that this person had some connection to that neighborhood, which makes it challenging because as you said, it was more transient, and that's what they were telling us. But it's like, is there somebody in a house somewhere around here that has eyes on and can see when she's going to and from work, but we felt like this person has through either work or living in the area or somehow visiting this area frequently is familiar with this business. And also, I think one of the things we had suggested, and I know that detectives were working on is just going through her customer list. You know, somebody who'd potentially been in the store before all of these things, but we also learned that her customer base tended to be older. So I was like, oh, I and I've just really got the sense. I think this is somebody younger from the neighborhood. That was really, you know, obviously that's not exactly what gets written into a report, but that was just my impression. We're dealing with a younger offender with ties to the neighborhood, not necessarily a customer because it didn't really fit her customer base and possibly somebody who had been in the store before. So those were our our thoughts at the time. If you would kind of go through and and tell us, you know, pick up where you left off on the DNA and how you ultimately identified the offender. Yeah. So just before I get to that, I just wanna back up just a bit and talk about with Earl. I think this is really important in this case, and that is so Earl did pick up his employee between 9:30 and 9:45. So the customer called earlier that morning before Earl had left to go pick up his employee. But after Earl left the residence, the employee ended up getting stuck in traffic up on interstate 15 as he was traveling to the bookstore. So he was a little bit worried because he had already told Sherry he was gonna be there at a certain time and realized that he wasn't gonna make it in time. So he actually called Sherry again, and that was at 953 to tell her, hey, there's a crash or traffic's back up on the freeway here. Is it still okay for me to come? I'm coming, but it's just a lot slower than I thought it was going to be. And she said, yeah. That's fine. So we have him at 9:53 with a call to Sherry, and he indicates that he actually shows up at the bookstore at 10:30. And that's why I think this is important because all the things we just discussed about the person or the potential suspect in a case like this, there's a 37 minute window from the time Sherry speaks with him to the time the customer arrives at the scene, and all this stuff has already occurred, and the suspect, as far as we know, is gone. So it's an extremely tight timeline as far as it's not like it's happened within this 2 or 3 hour span. It happened within 37 minutes for the person to get in, do what he did to Sherry, and get out. Now remind me, was there ever a thought maybe when the customer showed up, the offender was still in there and just waited for the customer to leave? Yeah. There was some thought of that, and I don't believe the customer actually went into the back room. So he actually hung around there for about 45 minutes. So he was again, Sherry had said to come. He called and said he was running behind. She said that was fine. He showed up. He entered into the front door. He called out her name. She didn't respond. He actually walked over to the house. He opened up their side door, called in to say he was there. She didn't respond, went back out. And during the time he was there, even another customer showed up, and he said, I've been here for a bit, and I don't know where she's at. She's expecting me, but I don't know where she's at. So the other customer left, and then this initial customer that came again stayed for about 45 minutes, and then Sherry never came up. And so he ended up leaving as well. So like I said, I think the other thing that's important is going back to what you talked about with somebody being familiar or in the area or knowing maybe patterns and those types of things would almost kind of lead to make you start thinking or at least believing there could be a possibility that this person does have a little bit closer of some type of connection here because 37 minutes, that's not a long time to do what this person did. So and to get in and out. So could he have been in the back still? Possibly. I think it's unlikely, but at the time, I think there's that possibility that the person could have still been backward. Yes. Yeah. And I think 37 minutes while it's not a long time, and then it's that that window that is it somebody that knows her schedule exactly or was he lucky? Right. And but 37 minutes is enough time, plenty of time to do what was done to her and that whatever happened probably happened a lot less time than that. That's my opinion. So I think it's very well. He could have been already gone. Nobody saw him and he just got extremely lucky. I think I always thought that's a possibility also as a possibility that this person knew her schedule. Exactly. And, but what led me to believe the first scenario was that she just didn't have anyone within her circle of people, even customers. And and I know, again, when when we went out there, they were still trying to look through all the customer lists and and things like that because she didn't have, like, she had receipts and, you know, she just didn't keep a lot of, like, very detailed records. So customers were still trying to be identified, but you just didn't see anyone within her close circle. And even as they continue to expand the investigation, that that would be capable, that really fit this profile. So that's why I was leaning more toward, I think this is somebody that knows of her. Maybe knows the building is here, knows the store is here. This was opportunistic and they're familiar with the area and they took the opportunity to go. And that's how I was leaning. And that was my thoughts at the time. I I know there, you know, was a neighborhood canvas done, of course, and all of that. But I really thought I think this is tied to that neighborhood, which made us like, again, going back, it was really a challenging neighborhood because it was a transient neighborhood. This wasn't a quiet neighborhood where everybody knew all their neighbors for a long period of time. Now, you know, the the blacks were there quite a while, but surrounding neighborhood was not, you know, not the same. Yeah. For sure. I guess the other part that I believe that the suspect was probably gone as well is the first customer hangs around for 45 minutes. During that time, another customer comes in. And then when they leave, there's actually a 3rd customer that pulls into the driveway there at the bookstore, and that's right around noon. And he notices the open sign is turned off and he leaves. But he was also a regular customer of Sherry's that would come in periodically for books or even just to visit about old books. So so we do have, you know, some documentation of where a number of people are either there or pulling in and out of there, and nobody still sees anything about that. Yeah. And the other thing that I recall, I mean, just the fact that it was in the morning on a weekday, most people who have traditional 9 to 5 jobs should be at work. So this would be somebody if they did have a job, they missed work that day, they were late that day, or they were unemployed and not accountable to anyone during that time, or they worked a second shift of some sort. But the fact being available at that time meant to me, again, going back to potentially being a younger offender because they maybe don't have a full time 9 to 5 job. Now not every person has a 9 to 5 job, but it just sorta was another thing to consider when looking at everything else. This is in the morning on a weekday. Most people should be at work, and most people in that neighborhood are are probably at work in some capacity. Yeah. Absolutely. On that thought, I want to wrap up this first part of our coverage of Sherry Black's murder with detective Ben Pender of the Salt Lake County Sheriff's department. Next time, we'll dive deeper into Ben's investigation, including the breakthroughs that ultimately led to identifying the person responsible for Sherry's murder. And we're gonna discuss the pivotal moments and the role of advancements in forensic science and the resilience of those who worked tirelessly on this case. That's it for this episode of The Consult. Thank you for listening. Music for The Consult is composed by John Hansky. If you'd like to learn more about our show, you can visit our website, www.truecrimeconsult.com. That's www.truecrimeconsult.com. You can also follow us on Twitter. Our handle is at the consult pod. Thank you. We made it to 2025, which means it's time to find a relationship with someone who actually gets you on eharmony. I just got back from spending the holidays with my family and spending the rest of my time watching romcoms. While most people might think of romcoms as secret single behavior in the words of Carrie Bradshaw, I actually think it's a great way to consider relationship goals as we get into 2025. I've watched the holiday about a 1000000 times. Jude Law and Cameron Diaz used to be my couple goals, but now I'm relating more and more to Jack Black and Kate Winslet's relationship. That feeling of finding someone who gets you is what eharmony is all about because that's what true connection feels like, being seen, heard, and understood, Someone you can laugh or cry or cry from laughing with. And eharmony wants you to make genuine meaningful connections, so they designed their app that way. Their unique compatibility quiz helps you bring out your personality on your profile, which makes it a lot easier to find someone who gets you. Get who gets you on eharmony. Sign up today. We made it to 2025, which means it's time to find a relationship with someone who actually gets you on eharmony. I just got back from spending the holidays with my family and spending the rest of my time watching rom coms. Well, most people might think of rom coms as secret single behavior in the words of Carrie Bradshaw. I actually think it's a great way to consider relationship goals as we get into 2025. I've watched the holiday about a 1000000 times. Jude Law and Cameron Diaz used to be my couple goals, but now I'm relating more and more to Jack Black and Kate Winslet's relationship. That feeling of finding someone who gets you is what eharmony is all about because that's what true connection feels like, being seen, heard, and understood, someone you can laugh or cry or cry from laughing with. And eharmony wants you to make genuine, meaningful connections, so they designed their app that way. Their unique compatibility quiz helps you bring out your personality on your profile, which makes it a lot easier to find someone who gets you. Get who gets you on eharmony. Sign up today.