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The Jordan Harbinger Show
01:07:44 6/9/2024

Transcript

This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb. Jen and I have always enjoyed exploring new places, and staying at Airbnb is pretty much a part of our travel ritual. So when Jen and I decided to build our own home, we had this light bulb moment. Why not create a slice of that welcoming Airbnb vibe right here? That's why we included a spare bedroom in our blueprint complete with its very own exterior door, allowing our guests the freedom to slip in and slip out without any fuss, no tiptoeing through the foyer. Taking a page from our own Airbnb experiences, we've been all about those extra touches, even tossing in some neat samples from our show sponsors. We haven't quite reached the baking banana bread for our guests level of hosting yet. Who Who knows what the future holds. Right? Y'all gave me so much grief about my love for banana bread. Anyhow, instead of letting our home sit empty while we're away, turning it into an Airbnb has helped fuel our own adventures. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. Instagram has family tools that help your family have a safer, healthier experience on the app. When teenagers set up their Instagram profile, default private accounts ensure that what they post stays private to them and their followers. Selecting a daily time limit helps your teenager keep healthy habits on the app. And by setting up supervision together, you gain more insight into who they're following. Learn more about these and other family tools at instagram.com/familytools. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional war correspondent, neuroscientists, real life pirates, special operator or astronaut. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. Hey, I appreciate it when you tell people about the show. That's how this thing grows, peeps. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion and negotiation, psychology, geopolitics, disinformation and cyber warfare, crime and cults, and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/ start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. By the way, I'll I'm not sick. I'm just doing this really early in the morning before a flight. This is my pre flight voice. My guest today is Wolf Pemphiel from the Haiti Policy House in Washington, DC. I have been wanting to talk to y'all about Haiti and update you on what is going on there. And Haiti just seems like such an amazing place. There's a rich history. Of course, we never really hear anything good about Haiti. Not in the news, anyway. Don't get me wrong. This is not going to be a feel good episode either, but we will dive into a brief history of Haiti. We'll discuss the roots of its current and past instability. Also, we'll touch on Haiti's neighbor, the Dominican Republic. You might know that place as the country where, like, half of New York is from. Wolf and I started with some history of Haiti, including a brief history of Haiti as a colony, independence from France then, getting screwed over by one country after another, the recent Kenyan police force traveling to Haiti to take on the crazy gangs supposedly will also unpack the downfall of the most recent government where the president was assassinated in his own bedroom and explore the breakdown of rule of law in Haiti, take over by these terrifying gangs, and more. Alright. Let's get back in the loop on Haiti with Wolf Pemphiel. I think before we dive into Haiti, tell us a little bit about yourself because I think one of the dangers I ran into was I was looking for a Haiti expert, and I found a lot of people that probably never lived in Haiti, probably haven't been there in a long time, might not have even ever been to Haiti. I kinda wanted to avoid that. And then when you came recommended, I was like, alright. This guy speaks with some authorities. So tell us tell us why. No. Thank you. Listen. I appreciate it because it is a thing. Whenever you see some Haiti experts on TV or radio, any podcast, it's some of the time it's like somebody who's not even Haitian or having been to Haiti in the past 30, 40 years. Mhmm. For me, I was born and raised in Haiti in a city called Capetian, which is the north side of the island, And I left Haiti when I was 14, and my family and I moved to Brooklyn. I mean, it was right after the coup d'etat with president Jean Baptiste. Yeah. We would say Aristide. If people people following along at home that don't speak French, Aristide or Aristide as you might hear on YouTube, which is not correct. You can say Aristide, Aristide, Aristide. Yeah. A lot of different ways, but Haitian, we just say Aristide. Right. Because of the French. Yep. I got you. You moved to Brooklyn as one does, as many Haitians have done. Many Haitians. Flatbush, Brooklyn. Everybody's watching from Flatbush, Brooklyn. Lived there for 18 years, and then I moved to DC last year to launch Haiti PolicyHouse. What was it like growing up in Haiti back then? Because I when I started researching Haiti, I was like, oh, this place hasn't been stable since and I was like, check's notes, 1750 or whatever. I mean, it's just been like one thing after another Yeah. Since before America was a country, basically. Okay. Let's put it this way. There are different realities in Haiti. Right? Different situations. If we're talking about Port au Prince, then there's always something happening. But the city that I grew up in, unless there's something catastrophic or something really egregious happening, you won't really know that there are, situations going on. Port au Prince is always some kind of, like, protests or crimes. There's always some kind of high crime rate, almost like any other big city. Mhmm. And growing up in Haiti, went to school by myself since I was 10. When you say by yourself, you mean, like, walking to school alone? Walking to school by myself. Actually, I the day I actually started going to school by myself, I escaped. I was waiting for the guy to come pick me up, and I just took off. So ever since then, my mom was like, oh, you know what? You survived, so let's keep you going. You escaped what, the school bus basically? No. So they hired somebody to come take me and then take me to school. Oh, I see. And then as we're waiting, I told him, I can go. And she's like, no, just wait for him. You know, my father was like a freemason, so one of his brothers would come pick me up. So he's like, no. Just wait for him. Brother sees us coming. And then I just looked left and right, looked at the gate, and I just took off. I was running. Okay. Then when I got to school, I was happy. Next thing you know, my mother came in crying. The brothers came in crying. You know, I was like, where is he? I thought I got kidnapped. Right. But you know, I'm 10. So in my head I'm thinking I'm in school. I'm fine. Everything is okay. Oh my, your poor mom. Well, that to say things were safe. We didn't have to worry about kidnappings until like early 2000, like 2,007,008. That's when kidnappings started coming around more popular. But we didn't have to worry about that growing up. It was just a, you know, peaceful time, relatively peaceful time. But we had a election prior to that. That's what I can remember. Right. The same month I was born was the month that they were overthrowing Aristides, so there was a lot of chaos going on. And then fast forward, he came back couple times. But Well, we'll get there. We'll get there. Yeah. Because you you hear about kids going to school in Haiti, and I think I'd read something like, and this is again Port au Prince, the capital, kids would have to go through people's homes. Because everything's so packed in, it's so densely populated, they would walk through people's homes because if you went in the streets, it was dangerous with gangs or whatever. And so kids are talking about, like, people would just let school kids walk through their house, go into the neighbor's window, and then out the kitchen window, and then into the next name. And that just, like that to me sounds like a war zone. I mean, I will say that there is some level of exaggeration there. Okay. There are these neighborhoods that are densely populated. Yeah. And they have this, layout called culois. Culois means a hallway. So the houses, they're so close to each other. So the street you're walking in or the path you're walking in is pretty much like a hallway, right? So when there's still like somebody there, you can take the main road or you can go through the culua, which means like you walking through, you mean you could walk through somebody's house if they really wanted you to, but it's just very close. It's you can touch both sides if you really wanted to. I see. Just like a hallway. That makes more sense than somebody crawling through your kitchen to get to school. I think they were just trying to avoid main roads from the sound. And they say now it's even more unsafe kids just stop going to school in Port au Prince, which makes sense. Yeah. Let's back up a little bit because the brief history of Haiti would be well placed here. Mhmm. Haiti starts as essentially a colony of of France. Correct? Well, at first, it was the Spanish. And then France took it over from the Spanish because, you know, Christopher Columbus came in at first from Spain, and then France took it over. What they decided, the French would have the side that is currently Haiti, and then the Spanish would have the side that is currently Dominican Republic, which is why one half speaks French, the other half speaks Spanish. And then right around 17/90, this rumbling of revolution, Toussaint Louverture came into the picture, Dessalines, all these guys came up. And the next 14 years, they fought the French for independence. Like, this was a horrific conflict. I read something like 200,000 people died Yeah. Both French and Haitians, locals, I guess you would say, natives, if you can use that word. And the French ultimately retreat, but 200,000 people. I mean, that is that's horrific. Yeah. The French took a devastating blow, to be honest. Yeah. They took a devastating blow, the Haitians really because essentially, Haitians have lived on this island for, you know, centuries. They know it back and forth, and the French never really got used to the territory, so Haiti Haiti is at the advantage. And when it came down to it, it was just a matter of who was willing to fight longer than the other. Mhmm. And when you put the possibility of freedom as a goal or as a reward, then people are gonna fight to the end to get to that. Mhmm. And I don't think France was ready to fight as long as it needed to to keep that fight, and they just the Haitians wanted it more than that. So Yeah. The French had been, what, taking slaves then from Africa and dropping them off in Haiti and essentially using it as a agricultural colony. What were they producing there? Sugarcane and stuff? Or or So Haiti, as they call it back in the day, was, lapel des entrees, which means the pearl of the Caribbean or the untilis. And because it was one of the largest producers of coffee, sugar, and it was one of the largest producer for France and around the world, essentially. Right? Mhmm. That lasted all through the 1800, even in the early 18, like 18 twenties or so when Greece became independent, when they were fighting for independence, they reached out to Haiti for support, and Haiti didn't have any money so they sent them like 25 tons of coffee. Like, hey, we don't have any money, but we have a lot of coffee. So sell this, buy guns, get your independence. And that's how Greece was able to fight for their independence as well. So Haiti produced a lot of coffee, a lot of sugarcane, a lot of sugar in general, and that's what it was known for back in the past. That's amazing. The whole revolution there was quite really kinda gross. It there's a really good video on YouTube about Haiti from real life lore. We'll link to that in the show notes if people are interested, but it's a lot of deep history on Haiti and the Dominican Republic, actually. So this leads to the French Indemnity. Can you tell us about that? Because that is sort of one of these turning points where you go, oh, they got free. Okay. Dot, dot, dot. Everything should be more or less on the up and up after that. It's like, we're gonna shackle you for the next 200 years. And this is the a bit of a, I guess, part of history that it was hard for people to understand Mhmm. Because, essentially, France saw Haitians or the slaves as properties. You know, if you lose your property, you want to be compensated for it. So what they wanted was, when Haiti became free, they said that they wanted to be compensated for every single person that was free. So slave owners in there, they send in their kids, their spouses. We had to pay them for the property that they lost. Wow. And it was called the the Haiti debt. And if you look up the Haiti debt, it's it even comes up in in, stories like a Compu Monte Cristo when they're talking about the Haiti debt that they were benefiting from and they were looking forward to getting back. And that really shackled Haiti. It took Haiti about a 122 years to pay that back. So from 18/04, 122 years later, it's like what? Early 1900s? Yeah. Like World War 1 was you know, getting ready to start when Haiti finished paying that debt off. Yeah. And so think about a 122 years of not making any progress and having to pay friends back. And as as soon as you're about to start again, something else comes up. And one of the ways I found this quite interesting. If you look at the island of Hispaniola, which is where Haiti is on one side and the Dominican Republic on the other side, if you look at that from space, like a satellite photo Yep. Haiti has basically no trees. And I I mean, relatively speaking, the Doctor is just like this really well forested area. I don't know what's on the border, maybe some towns, but there's tons and tons of trees. And I wondered why that happened. I thought maybe y'all built a ton of buildings out of wood, but it turns out that Haitians cut all the trees down because they paid part of the debt to France in timber, and they cut almost all the trees down in the whole country over that 122 year period. It's really kinda horrific, actually. Yeah. So things kinda spiraled. Right? You can only produce so much coffee. You can only produce so much sugarcane. And then second, that you're paying that debt off while trying to build a country. Mhmm. Building schools, hospitals, roads, everything else. And at the same time when the same timber that you're selling or you're giving to friends, you're also using it to cook. Cause back then we didn't have any, you know, gas or electricity, things like that. So even when the debt was done, till this day, we're still using to some extent, people are still using wood or charcoal to make charcoal to cook with. I mean, I've used them when I lived in Haiti to cook. So it's one of those, I guess, lack of technology that's really bringing the country down in a way that is destroying the environment. Some sections of Haiti do have large vegetation, but on a macro level, the compared to the Dominican Republic, it's not the same level. There have been programs to reforestation, to plant trees, but it's just been very sporadic, so it hasn't caught on. It's hard to replace a 100 years of deforestation Exactly. In a short period of time when there's also instability. Because it's not like even after that debt was paid off, which by the way, that wasn't just paid to France. I I started looking at this. Citibank ended up, which is ended up with this debt due to, I don't know, the way the banks do things, buying stuff, moving stuff around. So the US is complicit here too. This is in the early 1900. Exactly. And then the US invaded Haiti in 1915. Actually, invaded the Dominican Republic in 1916. So basically, invaded the whole island. I'm not totally sure why that happened. Maybe you can tell me. So, essentially, Haiti saw a wave of early migrants to Haiti, right, from different parts of the world. We're talking about migrants from, the Middle East, migrants from Europe, and when they arrived to Haiti, they started building businesses. And that's something you can look up in the New York Times. You'll see the US occupied Haiti in 1915. Mhmm. In the years leading to that, you saw like business owners who were American citizens were asking the US to intervene in Haiti because they were facing unfriendly or disadvantageous business practices. Things that were affecting their businesses. So right around that time, like, in the 19 15, the US came in and then with the mono doctrine, and they did not want any European countries to come into the region to do any administration for any countries like Spain or France to come back to do any of that. Right. Okay. Yeah. So the Monroe doctrine was kinda like, why are all these European powers building colonies right near us? We should probably sorta not do the same thing, but at least keep them out of our backyard. That was the middle of the doctrine, if memory serves. Okay. So the US came in, and the first thing they did was they went to the treasury in Haiti, and then they loaded all the gold that was in the treasury. And within a few days, that goal was in the federal building in New York city, Wall Street. And that was never paid back. Wow. So we just looted Haiti. So imagine Haiti finished paying that debt in the early 1900, like few years before that. Then at 1915, right when they were about to start again, the US came in and then took all that. Jeez. So it never really got the chance to to even get started. This is like every time Haiti got off the ground and onto one knee, somebody came by and kicked y'all down again over and over for centuries. Like, I'm not usually a blame foreign powers for your country not developing. Like, I am and I'm very much, like, oh, America bad. We get it. We're the be but Haiti is one of those examples where it's like the whole freaking world has ganged up on Haiti at one point or another and taken a shot at it. It's really, really unfortunate. There's almost nobody who's gone through that in the Western Hemisphere quite like y'all. It's really something. And when you really think about it, the question is why. Right? And the why is, I mean, the US is the oldest country in the Western hemisphere, and Haiti is second. The US was free in 17/76 and couple years later, the Haiti was free in 18/04. So there's no other countries can say that, and the 2nd oldest country after the US is also a black nation. So and you have rebellions sort of popping up in the US, like the Nat Turner rebellion Mhmm. And Latin America. So there was a clear message to make sure that this country does not become like a a model or a template for success. A portion of the revenue from this episode goes to the children of Haiti. Speaking of which, we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Air Doctor. Let's talk about something you do 20,000 times a day, not checking your phone close. It's breathing. We spend about 90% of our time indoors where, believe it or not, the air can be up to a 100 times more polluted than outside. I had no idea. That's really gross. That's right. Inside, it's a jungle of allergens, bacteria, and the occasional mystery odor that might just be your gut biome acting up. In in my case, it's kid farts. It's just I'm just brimming with kid farts, the this house. All that nasty stuff can lead to sneezing, congestion, more serious health issues like lung and heart disease. 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Now, back to Out of the Loop on Haiti with Wolf Pemphiel. Because it would be scary if every place that had brought in slaves from Africa suddenly had an uprising, and then became independent and successful. So it there was almost a vested interest in, like, making sure it looks like a terrible place to live or is a terrible place to live. Because that wasn't the end of it. I mean, it looks like and we'll get on to modern stuff here in a second, but Haiti had brutal dictators. So there's a police state essentially until 1986. This is like some cold war s**t. Right? This is police state until 1986. There was a coup that ended that or could very well still be a police state that was pro US, anti communist. They killed like 60 1,000 people with secret police. Basically, anybody who looked like they might want something that's not an authoritarian regime. Yep. And it was just like it father passed it down to his son. I mean, this is, like, not a place that you would wanna live in in the eighties from the fifties to the eighties. In the fifties, the Duvalier regime came into power with Francois Duvalier, and he was known as Papa Doc. So a lot of people would know that name, Papa Doc, baby Doc, father and son. And there are a lot of Netflix series about him as well, and essentially he came into power because he stayed in power, because right around the cold war, the US needed some kind of, dictator or leader that could counteract Russia and communism. And as many people as he killed, no one ever really went against him because he was fulfilling that need for the US. He changed the constitution to become president for life, and then right after he passed away, his son came into power, also president for life, and that went on for over 20 years. And in the late eighties, there was a big coup and the Makut, which were you talking about the private police, they call them the toto Makut. They essentially were part of the army. Well, there was the army, but at the same time, the Makut was essentially responding directly to the president. So it's like a presidential guard situation. Exactly. But it were like very, very, it started in the rural areas. So he empowered the rural areas saying like, hey, this, take whatever is yours. You will not empower. They've been holding you down for so long. Now is your time to rise. Here are guns, machetes, and everything. Rule for me. Protect me. I will be your champion. And that's how the Makut thing spiraled in and become this whole massive maligned power going on around Haiti. Okay. So you said you speak French, but it's not quite the same as French in France, correct? Well, no. So Haiti has two official languages. There is the Haitian Creole and then there is French. French, just like the language in France, it's the same thing, that's what we learned in school. We also learned creole in school, but I would say about I mean, I'm ballparking it here, but I would say roughly 70% of population doesn't fluently speak French. Okay. Wow. However, it is a language what they call it the language of business. Okay. So when you go to a bank, when you having a business deal, when you meeting someone like a dinner or something like that, they most likely gonna go in to speak French. However, the same person that's speaking Creole, who's you buying food from in the street, is not going to understand French and vice versa. Somebody who speaks French, I mean if you're born in Haiti you could understand, but somebody who's coming from France to Haiti is not necessarily gonna go in to understand Creole. That also creates an issue because if every day when I go home, I'm speaking English or I'm speaking Creole, but when I get to school, now day 1, I have to learn in French. I've never spoken in French a day in my life. But I have to learn what is a table, what is this and what is that, and then have to start to think in French. And not a kid is already at a disadvantage from day 1. And a creole is a mix of languages. You have Spanish, you have English, you have African languages, and essentially that's what a creole is. There are multiple different types of creole. There's a Louisiana krill. There's a krill in different countries. But in Haiti, specifically, the Haitian krill is what Haiti has. Yeah. It's it's fascinating. It's such an interesting language, because, yeah, it is kind of like this mix of various languages. There's no way I mean, you could it would be really hard to study that unless you lived in that particular place. It would be very tricky, I think, to pick up. Certainly not standardized. So Dominican Republic, right next door. I mean, same island, border pretty open until recently. This is a complicated relationship too. Right? Because I know that many Haitians have died at the hands of Dominicans and vice versa over the last few 100 years. Yeah. So the relationship with Haiti and the Dominican Republic is very complicated, but it's also it's simple, but also very complicated in a sense. Right? Do you have this island where we share a border with the immigrant public. A lot of trade during the day. A lot of money go back and forth between the two countries. However, the Dominican Republic has a lot of policies that are anti Haitian. Not just some policy may be passed, they'd be like, oh this is anti human right or anti specific women or things like that or LGBTQ, but some policies are specifically anti Haitian. Like for instance, in the 20 tens, the, the republican republic passed a law that said, let's say you were born in the Dominican Republic, right? But your parents or your grandparents were moved to the Dominican Republic illegally. Doesn't matter if they moved there 50 years ago and you now currently 60 years old or however old you are, you automatically no longer a citizen of that country. Wow. But these are people who've built their entire lives. Right. Maybe they've never even been to Haiti. Exactly. They were born in the Doctor. Exactly. So now, and that doesn't mean you can't take your wealth with you either. Right. Whatever you've built, businesses, homes, you have to leave all of that, and now they're currently most likely owned or taken over by the Dominican Republic government. And back in the days, you know, there was a issue with in the 19 forties where the massacre happened between the Dominican Republic and Haiti. What the issue was, the Dominican Trujillo, the Dominican president Trujillo, They didn't like that the population of the Korean public was getting darker. Skin tone, essentially. Mhmm. And they went as far to say that they're going to cleanse the country. Yikes. That's some Nazi sounding stuff right there. Yeah. Essentially. So, back in the days, the Dominican Republic had I mean, I'm sure I'm gonna catch a flag from the Dominican bots for some reason. I'm the one who's gonna catch the flag. They won't know how to reach you, probably. They they're gonna come after me. Don't worry about But essentially there was some very close ties with the Nazi regime because they had similar ideas by keeping the population pure, keeping it white, keeping it non black, non Haitian essentially. And then at the end, 15,000 Asians died from a genocide that happened from the Dominican Republic. Tell me why the Dominican Republic is white and Haiti is black. Because look. I'm just an outsider. I know that black people live in Haiti. Okay? That that I get. Mhmm. What I've got friends from the Doctor. I mean, they look all kinds of different. Some of them look black. Some of them look straight up Hispanic. Some of them look Indian. Some of them I can't put my finger on. It's just a big mix. White, though? I don't know, man. They don't look nobody's as pasty as me down there. So it's you know, if we go back a little bit, right, in terms of colonialization Mhmm. With France and Spain, the 2 have different policies in terms of how they interacted with the natives or the slaves who came into the country. Right? France saw it as were separate and we're never going to mix. Sure, there were still mulattos. Some people had relationships with slaves and they had kids, but on paper, you are not going to mix with somebody who's black and, that's how it was. So fast forward to the today, 95% of Haitians, 95% of population in Haiti is black. Now with the Dominican Republic, Spain had a different policy. For Spain, they saw it as we're going to cleanse, we're going to give you all whiteness. We're going to give you, we're going to give you civilization in a sense, right? And we're going to cleanse you. So that's why on the other side of the island, even people who are darker, you can still sell kinda like, like Southeast Asian or like a darker tone that's not exactly like West African tone. Mhmm. And that's essentially how it happened because they were the Spanish intermingled with the natives and also the Africans that were living there, and that's how the skin tone became very different. So France, again, had different very, very different policies in terms of, like, race mixing, essentially. Gotcha. Then later on, a century or 2 later, the Doctor says, hey. Look. There's too many Haitians here. We're getting too dark. And then that's what kicked off this sort of, I guess, genocide of Haitians living in the Dominican Republic. I know Haiti did invade the Doctor. I think that was a long time before that though in the early 1900, and that was also kinda brutal. And I think that was kinda the idea, like, hey. If we invade this other half of Hispaniola, we can use them to help pay this debt to France. I think that was part of the idea there too. Yeah. There are multiple different scenarios around that. Part of it said Doctor had slavery at some point, and then they wanted to go back to free the slaves or abolish slavery. Another part says, strategically, to prevent any incoming attack to Haiti because France was still looming around, they needed to take over the other side of the island to protect themselves, to know what's what was happening. And there are many ways to look at it. I mean, historically it's not clear as to why that happened, but there are multiple plausible reasons as to why it went down. It could be for the death. It could be strategically to defend Haiti, or it could be to abolish slavery at the on the entire island as well. I see. That makes sense. Mhmm. The Dominican Republic now, I think, is 5 to 8 times wealthier than Haiti. I looked up some stats. Haiti, 58% of people live on $3 a day or less than $3 a day, I should say. Access to water and electricity is more in line with what you might see in Africa, in a place like Uganda. And this is sad because I know now the Dominican Republic is building a wall between these two. Right? Because there's it's just a big land border. Right? Or is there a river or something there? But the it's pretty easy to get across from one to the other. Correct? Yeah. So the river in between Haiti and the Marine Corps, it's called the Massacre River, which is where the genocide happened. Wow. And there is a wall that's been, well, partly built recently. And honestly, that whole wall is pretty much like rhetoric for elections because it all started after Trump mentioned that he was gonna build a wall in Mexico. Like build a wall, build a wall. And then Dominican politicians took up the same idea, and it started, you know, nationalizing, rallying people up, say, we want to build a wall to keep the Haitians out, to keep the bad Haitians out. Right? And economically, the Dominican Republic is way further ahead than Haiti from a democracy standpoint. They have multiple elections back to back, no issues, but they haven't had the same issues that Haiti had. They've had to fight for their own freedom in a sense and they have also had to deal with some dictatorships as well, but it wasn't as in a way that it was intentional against them to prevent them from growing. And even now, the Doctor benefits widely from partnerships with Spain, the US. It's a major security partner with the US, and also the war against drugs plays a big role into that part, which creates a space for foreign investment into the Dominican Republic, where Haiti doesn't really have that. So Right. Yeah. Haiti's been too too unstable to get foreign investment. Nobody wants to invest in a place that has tons of coups. I mean, actually, dictatorships are pretty good for foreign investment because they're really stable. Well, until they're not. That is true. Until they're not. Until they're not. But like but like, Haiti's had coup dictator coup dictator coup dictator comes back from before. Like, that's a bit much, and it becomes hard to invest in. But the building a wall, I mean, that's kind of a sad deal. You're almost gonna have a DMZ like North and South Korea being built in 2024, and you'd like to think we're over this nonsense? Or do you think the wall is just never gonna happen? It's gonna be like an election, and it's gonna be a bunch of concrete? No. I mean, they started the wall. To me, it's a propaganda. Okay. Probably propaganda, operation going on just because I mean, even recently, the last election that happened a few weeks ago, the issue with Haitians was used as a way to rally votes. Whoever can go the, like, the toughest against Haitians usually would win. And the current president was reelected, and his stance was we're going to deport every single Haitian. But the thing is, what most people don't know is that the whole deportation process is a racket in a way. If you're a Haitian person, whether or not you have your papers or not, we catch you on the street, we just take you, we deport you and then the same agent who's deporting you now charges you $1,000 to come back in. Then now that they know you can get $1,000, they're mostly gonna keep gonna take you again to deport you and then bring you back. So it's the whole racket that's happening at the moment and at the same time, sure, there are Haitians in the, in the Dominican Republic that are illegal, but for majority of the time, it's, most people have visas and it's just a matter of like intimidation. A lot of Haitians right now are saying that they want to go back, they want to leave the Dominican Republic because it becomes a place where if you have a business and somebody just comes in and then robs you, you can't go to the police because you're not respected. They're not going to listen to you. That's horrific. Alright. So let's get more modern on the Haitian side here. A couple of years ago, I heard that the president of Haiti was assassinated. And that was almost I mean, it was quite dramatic. It was almost par for the course for Haiti, but tell us what happened here because it's still kind of an unsolved mystery, I think, at least according to news sources. I assume you have a good idea who whom you think probably did it. But I'm curious. What went down with this? So the president, Moiz, came into power. He was, had an election. Not very popular. I mean, didn't have a huge turnout, but he still won the election. He campaigned on the sense, it was called the, kind of like the plantain, they call him the nekbanon, which meant the guy who's going to plant, like repopulate banana trees all around Haiti to feed people. And that's the campaign that he he ran on. And when he came into power, he pretty much took money, like a corruption Yeah. Kind of way. He took money from the government. He took money from people that he wasn't in the same party with. However, once he came in, he kind of like, hey, I'm going to flip, now I'm going to be good. I'm going to report you guys, I'm going to shut down crime, I'm going to fight corruption. They're like, well, that's not what we gave you the money for. And fast forward, you would see he had a huge amount of protests in Haiti. He went after the private sector, which didn't go very well. And fast forward, you have, this doctor in Florida who has this idea to take over the country. A doctor in Florida? Is he a Haitian guy that lives in Florida? He's a Haitian doctor in Florida. Okay. Haitian American doctor in Florida. And he had this idea to, he's going to get a few mercenaries, fly into Haiti, arrest the president, and then take over power. Wow. And then that plan slowly turned into, well, we're going to go into Haiti, arrest them, but we know we're going to kill them. Wow. Taking Florida man to a whole new level. That's crazy. Exact exactly. And so what they did was they reached out to somebody who had connections in Colombia and they recruited a few dozen mercenaries and they went to Haiti. Well, they flew to the Dominican Republic, they stayed there for a couple of weeks and then they went into Haiti and a lot of money went into this mission. Till this day, they still can't find, or not can't, but they still won't disclose where the money went because they had new cars that were bought in Haiti. They had new weapons, new equipment. Now there's a security firm in Florida that also provided money to fund this operation. A lot of them were arrested already or have been convicted Sure. For life for multiple decades. And the night of, they show up to the president's house and said that they are DEA agents here to arrest the president for drug offenses. And the police not knowing what's happening, the security guard not knowing what's happening, and there's also, belief that the president's private security or security guards were part of it too because out of all the people who were there, the president is the only one who got hurt. Oh. And who got killed. Right. I take that back. His wife got shot. Yeah. That counts. His wife got shot, but he's the only one who died. And he was tortured before he died. They broke his arms. They broke his skull. They gouged an eye out. Jeez. It wasn't like a just show up and then they just shot him, like, point blank. He actually suffered. Jeez. And they went into his room looking for a list. So he was putting together a list of drug dealers in Haiti that he was going to report to the DEA. And they went into the house looking for that list, and I mean his wife speaks about this. She says when they went to the room, they were looking for a list. When they found it, they called someone to confirm. They're like, hey, look, we have the list. He's dead. Mission accomplished. And they left, and on their way out, that's when all hell broke loose. Honestly, while he wasn't a popular president, a lot of people from the impoverished neighborhood really liked him because he's from that neighborhood. He's from those, he spoke their language. They adored him in a way. And on top of that, you a foreigner coming into a country to kill our president. Yeah. It didn't go well for them. Well, most of them were captured. Some of them got were got away, but, essentially, they were all captured. Wow. That is a huge and there's this sort of ongoing investigation, but nobody's really talking about it for whatever reason. Yeah. There's some suspicious circumstances around it. Like, the prime minister was assigned and then this happens days later. Yeah. That's the thing too. Because the person who was leading the this operation to kill a president called the prime minister, well, he wasn't prime minister at the time, but called them before and after the incident happened. And she's still not arrested. There's still no evidence as far as like to say what exactly they talked about. But it is a pretty high suspicion to say that this person who just did this called you right after this happened. What are you talking about? What was the conversation like? Yeah. That's us. To this day, there's still a lot of mystery around this. I still believe that there are more people out there who are responsible for this, but he did not have a lot of friends. He didn't have a lot of people to look out for him. Again, even people closest to him also turned on him as well, so. Once again, a portion of the proceeds from this episode go to the children of Haiti. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Aura. Have you noticed all the data breaches lately? It's not just about the hackers. Data brokers are legally collecting and selling our personal info, everything from our names to our credit cards, which can lead to identity theft, financial fraud, and other online threats. But there's something you can do about it. Aura will handle the tedious task of opting out from these data brokers on your behalf. These brokers are required to delete your information if you request it, and Aura makes sure they do just that, which can help cut down on those annoying scam calls. Aura actively monitors for threats and sends real time alerts if your information is compromised. They also scan the dark web for your info. 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Everyday Midnight Burger appears somewhere new in the cosmos along with its staff, a galactic drifter, a rogue theoretical physicist, a sentient old timey radio, some guy named Casper. Nobody really knows who built Midnight Burger or how it works, but when it appears, there's always someone around who could really use a cup of coffee. It's for fans of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Doctor Who, The Good Place, and Everything Everywhere All at Once. Midnight Burger has been downloaded over 5,000,000 times and was recently nominated for a 2024 AMBI Award for best fiction podcast. You can find and listen to Midnight Burger anywhere you listen to podcasts or just go to we open at six.com. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our sponsors. And, I mean, look. I understand. If you just don't like children and especially ones that are in need over there in Haiti, then you skip the ads, you don't support the sponsors. I get it. You heartless bastard. But for the rest of you, all the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show and the children of Haiti are searchable and clickable over at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Thank you so much for supporting those who support the show. Now, for the rest of my conversation with Wolf Penfield. I know I mentioned before that Haiti is one of the most densely populated countries in the world. I think it's the most densely populated country in the Western Hemisphere, which makes it much more vulnerable to natural disasters along with the deforestation issue. There's no trees to stop storms and keep things from eroding and things like that. A lot of people probably heard about, in 2010, there was this massive earthquake that also created a power vacuum in chaos. Do you remember the damage on that? I mean, I I don't have figures for this, but I just remember her hearing about how massive and horrific it was. Yeah. It was a horrible day. It was a horrible day because in the blink of an eye, over 300,000 people died. And I mean, not to count people who died after from complications and injuries and things like that. Right. 300,000 people. I mean, almost half of the Haiti's population resides in Port au Prince, which makes it a island of 11,000,000 people, and I would say about 40 to 50 percent of them lived in Port au Prince. Wow. It's packed. And they're not properly built, and this lack of infrastructure, lack of laws to prevent people from building their own way. Building codes. Building codes. People are more conscious of that now because they see the devastation that can come from an earthquake. But still, back then, it was just nothing that we've ever thought of. Mhmm. You know, we've had hurricanes, we've had all types of things, but an earthquake was something that never in a 1000000 years thought about. But, yeah, it killed a lot of people. It set Haiti back, I think, like, decades Mhmm. From the devastation. I heard a lot of kids were orphaned and essentially, like, sold to people or taken away from people because they were just left without parents. I mean, it's just, like, a really super Well, it's horrifying situation. I think run around that. I can't say that for sure that Gladiators were sold or Okay. Things like that, because I don't have the facts. But what I can say is that there are people who were arrested right around that time because they saw it as a vulnerable time to go in and then abduct kids from Haiti. And there were people who went in saying that they want to adopt kids, and then essentially they were just trying to take them to traffic them. Yeah. So there were actual arrests around that. Yeah. But as far as like selling or anything like that, it just wasn't as clear. But I do know there were people arrested for child trafficking. Child trafficking. Yeah. That's what I heard. I guess I just assumed the trafficking involves selling them, but you're right. I guess that there's a distinction there. Okay. So let's talk about the gang warfare because I hear that there's, like, roadblocks and checkpoints so that goods can't go from the port to cities. You hear about all these kidnappings, like, they'll grab 19 missionaries or whatever and try and hold them for ransom. Why are the gangs in charge? What happened here? So back in, when Aristide came into power, he pretty much rallied the gangs to support him. Right? And he provided weapons to a lot of the inner cities, provided weapons, money as his quote unquote army in a way. Similar to what the Duvalier did with the with the Makuts. And, fast forward now, when he left, that method became a blueprint for both politicians that followed him and also the economic sector like for the private sector. And essentially the gangs, similar to what's happening in Africa or around the world where there's like proxy wars happening, the gangs became proxy armies where they were fighting for people. If I'm a senator and I have x y z plan, I just say, hey, they send weapons, go against this other gang who support that senator. Wow. Or if I have a business and let's say I'm in bottling business, and there's a new competition on the market that's potentially could put me out of business, say, hey. Go put this guy to business. Burn his trucks. Burn everything, prevent him from selling anything Please. And support me. So now we have 2 camps that are flying in weapons to support these gangs, and it's how we have this monstrous issue now where they're all out now self sufficient in a way. That's crazy. I thought the gangs just arose on their own out of desperation. I didn't realize politicians and business people were actually funding them and arming them to wield them against their competitors. That's a really bad idea. I mean, actually, right now, there are dozens of business wealthy billionaires in Haiti who are sanctioned by Canada, the United Kingdom, the US for that specific thing. Those sections started happening in 2022, right when things started spiraling. And it's a known fact to see countries actually implementing sections against people, against former senators, against current senators, against politician and also wealthy business owners. You would like, oh, why this person who's worth 1,000,000,000 being sanctioned by Canada for human rights issues? Yeah. And then when you really dig deeper, that's essentially if you're providing weapons and drugs to these gangs and they're killing people, but your business is profiting. You know, essentially, that's how we got here. So it seems like some of these folks have lost control of these gangs because they're not just fighting the bottling company or the rival senator. Right? They're kidnapping missionaries. There's a guy they call Barbecue. I assume it's not because he makes great chicken. Tell me about this guy. Barbecue is, well, former police officer, and he was fired after a massacre that happened in the small neighborhood called La Saline, where 70 people died, around 70 people died, and he was one of the lead police officers that oversaw this operation. And he was fired and essentially he started the gang called I'm not sure how to say it in English, but he started that gang and then fast forward, he rallied all of them together. And barbecue got his name from burning houses and burning people, quote unquote, making barbecue out of them. Ugh. And that's pretty much how, you know, he got his fame. He's not really eating them, is he, or is that part of it? I don't know. You don't know? I don't know. Honestly, it's all a fear. They speak about that. Because, you know, that's the worst thing that could possibly happen to a human. Right? One of the worst that could possibly happen. So they use that as, like, a fear tactic to scare people, but I don't I don't believe that they're actually eating Okay. Eating people. But I think it's just called g 9. Right? Isn't that g niff? Just g 9. Yes. G 9. Yeah. Yeah. So g 9, whatever that is. 9 and then there's g prep. They used to fight against each other, but now they're all friends. Crazy. And thousands of people are getting killed in this gang warfare. Recently, there was a missionary, and I think his wife and they were young, and they grew up, I think, in Haiti or at least he did. And they were killed outside of a church in just what looks like a random robbery. So these gangs are not it's not like they're under the control of the person who's funding and arming them, and they they sit around waiting for orders. They cause pure chaos in the meantime. Yeah? Well, right now, I mean, the gangs are on their own, essentially. I see. Right? Whatever was started by politicians or business elites is no longer that. It's kind of spiraled into its own thing and where the gangs have their own operations, they have their own drug trafficking routes from Latin America into Haiti that they're monitoring, gun trafficking routes, human trafficking as well. And the one thing that's bubbling under the surface is like the black market organs that are being sold from Haiti. Wow. And when you see people go missing, they show up with missing body parts. It's kinda it's a little it's it's scary, but they have their own ways of generating income, and they also do a lot of kidnapping, where somebody like the the missionaries that we're talking about, that were held by, Fitelow Minosaw, and he's on the top ten for the FBI at the moment. And he recently did a interview with CNN where he showed his house. This Most Wanted guy did an interview with CNN? Yeah. Wow. They drove to his house. He shook them around the neighborhood. And there he is on CNN giving up an interview. But the thing is, if you get along, which makes him even more of a daring individual or even crazy because he controls the same neighborhood that the US embassy is in. Even recently, I mean, the 2 young missionaries that died a few weeks ago in Haiti, they were like early twenties. Yeah. They died. He pretty much helped negotiate to get them back because he's that guy. Wow. And it's in a sense that you can't really maneuver without, in a way, negotiating with them. But I mean, I'm very interested to see how this will end, to be honest with you. Because this can be a way where the gangs, you know, you're forced to negotiate with gangs or in a way trying to live life with them as, like, a norm. And I would say most Haitians are looking forward to this chapter ending. What is the path out of this? Because a lot of people have opted to emigrate. Right? They go to Colombia or they go to the Dominican Republic first and foremost, right, because it's on the same island. They immigrate. They go to Colombia. A lot of people go from Colombia and then through the Darien Gap and through Panama, up through Mexico and into the United States. Or they if they can get access access to a boat, they just try to go to Florida or wherever as well, and you get to the United States. But for those who aren't I mean, the whole country can't leave. Now they got this Kenyan police force coming in. What's the deal with this? Because I I think a lot of people haven't heard about this. And also, do you think it's gonna work? I mean, in a situation where there's only there aren't that many options to begin with. Right? So in March, the former prime minister went to Kenya to sign that same agreement with the Kenyan police and the Kenyan president. And on his way back to Haiti, the gangs locked him out. They said, the airport is closed, the ports are closed, you're not coming back. And he was forced to resign from that. And since then, we didn't have a prime minister. And, fast forward, they established this, transitional council, they call it the presidential council, where major political parties came together, 9 of them. And it's a big deal actually for Haiti. It's a very big deal in the sense that you have 9 groups that were previously against each other and had selfish reasons to exist or to move their own way, and now they all agreed to work together for Haiti to move forward. Right? And they're all voting together. They all recently they voted for a new prime minister, now mister Kony, who just started this week. And that's a big deal because it wasn't just one person making a decision or it wasn't the US or Canada making the decision saying like, this is who we want, to be president, but you guys or this group of 9 people I mean, 2 of them don't have voting rights, but at least they're part of the table of the conversation and say, this is who we want to govern Haiti temporarily until we can get to elections. So tell me about this Kenyan police force that's going into Haiti. So the Kenyan police force, previously, we had the right after the Aristide, there was a minister, which was a UN peacekeeping mission that went into Haiti for similar reasons, for it to deal with the gangs, to deal with instability, and fast forward, we're right back where we are today. The former prime minister asked the international community for support, and the US didn't wanna get involved, the UN said, they're not sending soldiers. So essentially, Kenya volunteered to lead this mission in a way. It's not a UN mission, but it's a UN. The UN gave like a step of approval. So like, hey, we acknowledge this mission, you can move forward, but we're not liable for anything in a sense, which is what makes it very complicated because essentially Yeah. The people leading this mission is Kenya and other smaller countries that are contributing soldiers to it as well. Well, it's still a bit unclear what the goal actually is, what they actually will be doing. The one thing that is clear is that they won't be going to fight the gangs directly. Oh, they won't. Okay. They won't. And they are going to protect critical infrastructures from what's been relayed to us. They're going to protect critical infrastructure while they allow the Haitian police to focus directly on the gangs themselves. That tactic may change eventually. I'm not sure, but currently that's the message that they're putting out, is that they won't be the leading force against the gangs, and they won't be the ones going through a small neighborhood and dealing with the terror there. Who's gonna do that? That's a good question. Because, essentially, from a security perspective, right, one of my colleagues was giving a presentation the other day. His name is, Jefski, Jefski Poissy, and he made a good point. He said, Haiti currently has an army. There's a police force. They're capable of handling this situation if they had the proper equipment and enough people to do it. Right. However, we're spending over $500,000,000 to bring Kenya into Haiti, to train them to deal with Haiti's gangs. And when they leave, the Haitian police and the Haitian army is still understaffed, but still not trained. So why not focus directly on that and to have a sustainable growth, sustainable I think a sustainable development is security. So that's what a lot of Haitians are upset about, to be honest, because they're like, well, we're here. Why can't you invest in us? Yeah. You know? Now will this work? It's yet to be seen, but a lot of us are optimistic, and you know, it is one of the avenues to dealing with the gangs. It may not be the most ideal, but at the crossroad that we're in right now, it is one of the best solutions that we have to move forward with. Man. So when's the last time you went back to Haiti? Because it seems like it's quite dangerous. I don't know. I mean, are you afraid to go back? Is it safe to go back? Or is it mostly Port au Prince? I'm not afraid to go back to Haiti. I did grow up in Port au Prince. My father's from Port au Prince. Right. But I'm not afraid to go back to Haiti. I can go to to my town anytime. The last time I went was in 2014. Well, like I said, most of my family left Haiti. So if I visit Haiti, it's mostly gonna be like, you know, on my own or for business reasons. Yeah. There's no fear to go to he because it's not I don't know, it's a territory that I know. I mean, I'm not going to be stupid. Yeah. And then fly into Port au Prince and just like, you know? Yeah. But I'm from New York. Kidnapped the rent. New York. Yeah. But I know a lot of people who still visit Haiti till this day. Like, right now, there are people who are going to Haiti to visit family and coming back. Again, I say this, Port au Prince is geographically a very small portion of Haiti where the entire rest of the island are experiencing something completely different from what's happening. There's no gang held territories as big as Port au Prince. There's no barbecue in Cap Haitien. There's none of that. This whole situation only exists in Port au Prince. It's really a wild tale. And I'm I I'm hope I have high hopes, but, you know, I'm ignorant, and I'm looking at it from the outside. So tell us why we should be optimistic about Haiti, or maybe I should rephrase that. Are you optimistic about Haiti? And if so, why? I mean, I'm optimistic about Haiti. Because when we think about Haiti, for me personally, I'll say this. Right? My mother was a school teacher in Haiti. My father was a construction worker. And uncles, you asked him, when are you going back to Haiti? He's like, well, I would go back yesterday if I could. And I'm optimistic because I truly believe in having a Haiti that my mother can go back to, and my mother can retire, and everybody's mom can retire to and fathers can retire to. And essentially right now there's a new wave, there's new energy that's flowing into this space, like for with Haiti Policy House being in DC and we are forcing ourselves to the table where there are a lot of rooms where Haiti is being discussed, where Haitians are not invited and we're being very diligent to make sure that we know what's happening. In the same time in Haiti, there are a lot of groups that are fighting for fairness, fighting against corruptions. And again, with this traditional presidential council too, it's like, it's a major step forward where there's a consensus on what needs to happen. We may disagree on how we get there, but we all agree that we need a better Haiti. And I don't think you can meet a Haitian that will always, that's going to say that they don't want what's best for Haiti. And this is a new time where back then you had 1 or 2 politicians who were leading and then, you know, whether it's Aristide or Marteli, but now there's a consensus among all major political groups, and that makes me optimistic what's happening. Some people may call me naive. You know, the older folks, like, would say, well, are you naive? We've seen this before. I'm like, all right, well, I've never seen it. I'm just going to be optimistic. I'm going to move in the same space. I'm going to opera. I'm not going to let, cynicism take over because once you start being, you know, very pessimistic about a situation, that's when all the worst thing happens. Wolf, thank you very much, man. It's, I really am grateful that you were able to explain all this. I think the situation there is confusing for a lot of folks. The history is really important. I would love to visit Haiti someday, but, yeah, maybe maybe not right this moment, but some someday. If you want to, you can go to Cap Haitien right now, and nothing will happen to you. My wife will kill me. That's the problem. My wife will kill I'm I'm more afraid of her than I am of barbecue. You know what? When you're ready, let me know. I'll go with you. You got it, man. You got a deal. Thank you. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show about the warning signs for civil war. There were times when I was writing that I myself started to get terrified. Is this right? Am I getting this right? Because what I'm saying is going to hit people hard. There have been hundreds of studies of civil wars. The group that tends to start these wars are the once dominant groups that are in decline. The group that has been politically, socially, economically dominant since the very beginning of this country, white Christian males for the most part. America is going through this radical demographic transition from a white majority country to a white minority country. White working class men have declined on most social and economic measures that hasn't happened with any other demographic group. And there's a subset of this population that's deeply resentful of that, that's deeply threatened by that, and truly, truly believe that it's their patriotic duty to do something about this. January 6th was so public. It was so obvious. This is part of a far right white supremacist, anti federal government movement here in the United States. We know that some of the far right militias, the Oath Keepers, the Proud Boys, and the 3 Percenters, actively encouraged members to join the military, to join law enforcement. If you continuously portray this as these are just crazy individuals, then you remain blind to what's actually the cancer that's growing slowly from within. To hear whether we're on the cusp of a civil war here in the United States, check out episode 718 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. Thanks again to Wolf for coming on today. What a sharp guy, man. I'd love to see Haiti. Maybe I'll take him up on his idea to head down there. Jen would probably kill me, though. I'm actually more afraid of her than anybody named Barbecue. Barbecue ain't never seen my wife angry. Fun story. The former president Aristide, I was back in my days in New York City working as a lawyer. I was doing my thing, talking to everybody in bars and whatever that I met. This was my social development decade, so to speak. I met this, like, badass marine special forces type guy, and he told me that in 2004, he was actually one of the guys that went to Haiti and took Aristide out of the country, effectively forcing the guy to resign. And there were a lot of wild details. This was not some calm operation. There was smoke screen and tear gas. They were wearing, of course, gas masks and protection, and they said that at one point, they're bringing Aristide to the jet to exile him. They brought him to, Central African Republic, c a r, and there's just these clouds of gas. Well, after the operation, of course, they're all safe. They decide to take showers. I'm not sure how this works exactly, but there was some sort of pepper spray tear gas residue on their hair and body. So while they didn't get it in their eyes and on their face and skin, they were careful not to do that. Well, you know, stuff drips from your body down to your nether regions in the shower. So this guy said it starts like a nice shower, feels good, you know, after an operation wearing a gas mask and all that gear, then he feels a little tingle on his balls, followed by absolute fire for the next several minutes and screaming as tear gas residue from his hair and body drips onto his junk along with blazing hot shower water. And he said it was the worst pain that he's ever felt in his life. And this is a guy who has been stabbed before with a knife during combat. So take that most likely useless information forth into the coming week here. Thanks to Wolf for coming on the show and breaking all this down for us. All things Wolf Pamphyl will be in show notes atjordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, and the children of Haiti in this particular episode, all searchable and clickable atjordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show, and consider supporting the children of Haiti as well. Also, our newsletter We Bit Wiser, the idea is to give you something specific and practical, something that'll have an immediate impact on your decisions, your psychology, your relationships in under 2 minutes a week. That's every Wednesday. If you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. It's a great companion to the show. Jordanharbinger.com/news is where you can find it. Six minute networking over at 6 minute networking dot com, and I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. A lot of good conversations going on there as well. This show is created in association with Podcast 1. My team includes Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. If you know somebody who's interested in Haiti current events, definitely share this episode with them. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. How do my daughter and I set boundaries on who can message her online? How do I talk with my son about healthy online behavior? If you've got questions about how to keep your teenagers safer online, family center on Instagram has resources that can help. Family center is where you'll find supervision you can set up with your teenager and an education hub with advice from youth experts on how to have conversations about safety. Explore more of our family tools instagram.com/familytools. You may have met ballymalu relish before, but have you been introduced to the rest of the relish family? Red onion relish goes beautifully with soft cheese, pepper relish, loves to be stirred into your meals, and fiery relish brings a delicious kick to every dish. There's a whole family of flavors for you to try. Bring taste to the table with Balimalu Foods.

Past Episodes

Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter
FOR THE HAYTERS S2E7 - Weight Loss is More Than A Physical Journey

Listen in to James talk about his journey with weight loss. The mental take it took on his childhood, and how he takes control today.

To hear the full episode visit For The Hayters on Spotify or Apple Podcasts 

Share your story at forthehayters.com
Follow us on Instagram and Tiktok @forthehayters
Listen to season 1 of For The Hayters - https://www.podcastone.com/pd/For-The-Hayters



Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter
It's Over For WaWa

This week the girls are coming to you from NYC and this might be the most unhinged episode yet! We kick off the episode with Kail sharing a very special gift with Becky. On a little more of a serious note Becky talks about working through how she will do the "taking your younger self out for coffee" trend and she gives us an update on what life post birth looks like for her and Leah. Don't worry though things don't stay serious for too long with Kail sharing her new commercial idea! 

Follow Becky at instagram.com/hayter25 and subscribe to For The Hayters 

To keep up with Kail subscribe to her newsletter at kaillowry.com 

To join Becky for the Onyx Storm Live Book Club 2/28 at 7:30 pm head to patreon.com/kaillowry 

To support the show please check out our sponsors!

Happy Mammoth: For a limited time, you can get 15% off on your entire first order at happymammoth.com just use the cod e KARMA at checkout.

Shopify: to sign up for your one dollar a month trial period head to shopify.com/karma 

Branch Basics: Right now, our listeners get 15% off the Premium Starter Kit by using code Karma at BranchBasics.com. 



Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter
FOR THE HAYTERS S2E6 - A Life With Chronic Pain

Listen in as AJ talks about his struggle with chronic pain. The way that his daily life and future goals had to be altered after an injury sustained from a car accident.

To hear the full episode visit For The Hayters on Spotify or Apple Podcasts 

Share your story at forthehayters.com
Follow us on Instagram and Tiktok @forthehayters
Listen to season 1 of For The Hayters - https://www.podcastone.com/pd/For-The-Hayters



Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter
Kail VS The Roo

This week Kail and Becky are in a silly goofy mood and amongst the giggles Kail shares some news with Becky that leaves her speechless! Becky talks about her and Leah's discussions about what life looks like after baby Becks arrives. Kail is ready to fight everyone including a kangaroo? There's something for everyone in this week's episode!

Follow Becky at instagram.com/hayter25 and subscribe to For The Hayters 

To keep up with Kail subscribe to her newsletter at kaillowry.com 

To join Becky for the Onyx Storm Live Book Club 2/10 at 7:30 pm head to patreon.com/kaillowry 

To support the show please check out our sponsors!

BetterHelp: Visit betterhelp.com/KARMA to get 10% off your f irst month.

Hiya: For 50% off their best selling children's vitamins head to hiyahealth.com/KARMA. 

OPositiv: take proactive care of your vaginal health head to opositiv.com/karma 

HERS: start your free online visit today at forhers.com/karma 

Tempo: for 60% off your first box head to tempomeals.com/karma 



Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter
FOR THE HAYTERS S2E5 - Relationships: From Making it Down The Aisle, To Breaking Them Off

Listen in as Jess & Devin talk about their reasons for starting DIY breakups. From canceled weddings, engagements, and dealing with societal pressures of what you should do, rather than what you want.

To hear the full episode visit For The Hayters on Spotify or Apple Podcasts 

Share your story at forthehayters.com
Follow us on Instagram and Tiktok @forthehayters
Listen to season 1 of For The Hayters - https://www.podcastone.com/pd/For-The-Hayters



Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter
Still Learning Life Lessons

This week Kail and Becky are back; catching up after a little time apart. The ladies discuss the challenges Kail faces as her family continues to grow, like tackling dentist appointments. Becky talks about celebrating her dad's birthday for the first time since he passed and how hard that was on her, more so than she expected. To end the episode on a light note the ladies go over their anti-bucket lists, things they would NEVER do.

For the list of books Kail mentions head here Children Books List  

To keep up with Becky head to beckyhayter.com and subscribe to For The Hayters 

As always to keep up with Kail check out kaillowry.com and subscribe to her newsletter.

Thank you for supporting our sponsors!

SKIMS: Shop SKIMS best intimates including the Fits Everybody Collection and more at SKIMS.com and SKIM S stores After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you! Select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows.

BetterHelp: Visit betterhelp.com/KARMA to get 10% off your firs t month.

HappyMammoth: For a limited time, you can get 15% off on your entire first order at happymammoth.com just use the co de KARMA at checkout.

Draft Kings: New players can play five bucks to get a spin on the mystery wheel for a shot at up to 2k in Casino Credits! Download the app and sign up with code KARMA



Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter
FOR THE HAYTERS S2E4 - The Selfless Act of Surrogacy

Listen in as Shawna talks about her experience being a surrogate and the path that led her there. A true selfless act with the happiest of endings.

To hear the full episode visit For The Hayters on Spotify or Apple Podcasts 

Share your story at forthehayters.com
Follow us on Instagram and Tiktok @forthehayters
Listen to season 1 of For The Hayters - https://www.podcastone.com/pd/For-The-Hayters



Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter
Is It Karma Or Is It Chaos

This week Kail and Becky are answering your questions about sports as a mom and a coach! The ladies give insight into how to manage schedules and Becky's perspective as a coach. The new segment Is It Karma Or Is It Chaos starts this week and Kail and Becky want to know if you think the listener got her karma or her chaos! Let them know how you felt about this episode by joining the facebook group!

Check out Becky on IG @hayter25 and her blog on beckyhayter.com.

As always, keep up to date with Kail by checking out kaillowry.com & subscribe to the newsletter!

Thank you for supporting our sponsors!

Branch Basics: Right now, ourl isteners get 15% off their entire order by using code Karma at BranchBasics.com.

O Positiv: Take proactive care of your vaginal health and head to OPositiv.com/KARMA 

or enter KARMA at checkout for 25% off your first purchase.

Draft Kings: New players can play five bucks to get a spin on the mystery wheel for a shot at up to TWO THOUSAND in Casino Credits! Download the app and sign up with code KARMA.

 



Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter
FOR THE HAYTERS S2E3 - Heroin Addict to Self-Made Millionaire

Listen as Josh recounts his journey through addiction, his battle to recovery and finds success in the real estate world.

To hear the full episode go to: https://www.podcastone.com/pd/For-The-Hayters

Share your story at forthehayters.com
Follow us on Instagram and Tiktok @forthehayters
Listen to season 1 of For The Hayters - https://www.podcastone.com/pd/For-The-Hayters



Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter
This Is A Business Podcast Now

This week Kail and Becky are catching up in NYC! We get some insight into Kail's latest business idea, Becky talks about her most recent podcast appearance and the question she was asked that left her guessing. Kail and Becky ponder over how Karma actually works, is it selective to each person or are there set standards kama abides by?

Check out Becky on IG @hayter25 and don't foret to listen to For The Hayters here!  

As always, keep up to date with Kail by checking out kaillowry.com & subscribe to the newsletter! 

Thank you for supporting our sponsors!

Happy Mammoth: Get 15% off on your entire first order at happymammoth.com using code KARMA at checkout 

SKIMS: Check out the Fits Everybody Collection at https:/www.skims.com/karma #skimspartner 

Shopify: Sign up for your $1/month trial period at Shopify.com/karma

HERS: Start your intial free online visit today at forhers.com/karma 

Zocdoc: Stop putting off those doctor appointments and go to zocdoc.com.karma to find and ins tantly book a top rated doctor today!

 



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