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The Jordan Harbinger Show
01:24:55 7/30/2024

Transcript

Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show, you will find that there's patterns in people like these perceptual defaults for what they look at like, I don't trust them. And you'll see themes for where they look in their life for all the signs of not trust. It's 100 percent of you problem. Like you're viewing the world for indications and signs and not to be trusted, and you need to do your own work to see why you just distrust everybody and why you're looking for that. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger on The Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the story's secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional hacker Real-Life Pirates, special operator or tech luminary. And if you're new to this show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion and negotiation, psychology, geopolitics, disinformation, cyber warfare, crime and cults, and more. They'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit Jordan Harbinger.com/ start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started today on the show. A very old friend of mind, body language expert Blake Eastman. Blake is not the kind of body language expert you see hawking simplistic nonsense on YouTube. He does, well, serious research about the interaction between humans and artificial intelligence. The importance of social context in reading human behavior or personality tests, etc. On this episode today, we will explore why. No, you can't tell if someone is lying, and neither can those people selling you courses about how to tell if somebody is lying. We'll also discover how our emotions will soon be read by artificial intelligence even better than humans do. Just using our voice alone or just our face alone, it's amazing what these machines can do nowadays, and we'll get a road map for developing our skills in terms of reading other people and ourselves to gain a deeper understanding of our own human behavior. Now here we go with Blake Eastman. It's good to have you on the show because for one thing, I've known you for like 10 years got to be like over 10 years. And I remember I was super into body language back in the day, as were you and I started off, as you might have also started off learning the nonsense bulls**t version of body language like, oh, well, if they look that way when they're talking, they're lying. But if they look the other way, they might just be accessing their memory. And if they look down and up and say, it's like all these different AI accessing cues which turned out to just be not a thing at all, they were made up by like hypnosis. Guys who made up a bunch of other stuff or like Jordan's feet are pointing towards that door, so it must mean he wants to get out of the conversation and leave. And it's like, Well, this chair kind of only allows me to point my feet towards the door and my favorite, which is your arms are crossed. You must be resisting something. And I remember a chiropractor who made us call her doctor or something, and a self-help seminar that I was like dragged to was like, You're resisting the teaching. And I'm like, It's like sixty five degrees in here and I'm in a T-shirt. I'm cold and she's like, But you're also resist. And I'm like, This is not real. And you and I kind of figured this stuff out over time, and I discarded most of it. But you were like, No, I'm going to get the real science, which I think is kind of cool, you know, like, if there's real science, I'm going to find it. And here you are. Yeah, it's just such an interesting landscape. The truth is, whenever you're studying people, the notion of there being like real science is very complex, and a lot of studies are done on small sample sizes in a controlled environment. And there's almost as like this problem in psychology where a lot of the studies are done in you. If you actually were to read most of these, you'd be like, All right, like, this is interesting, but it's not going to take things from this and implement them in my life. And unfortunately, that's our culture. Somebody wants to say something. They try to find a study to support it. The study is along that theme, but if you actually read the study, you'd be like, This is what's going on here, and it's a problem. We are constantly listening to experts who will reference studies, and it stops there. So the critical aspect of someone's thought process is like, Oh, well, there's a study to support that. So therefore it must be valid instead of like, Let me read this or let me understand the nuance of that study or how it was constructed or the opposing studies or the flaws of the studies like. And just that's our culture right now. You're right, it's the culture, and it's being exacerbated by a grifters and a lot of ways there's a there's a huge podcast, obviously, I will not name it, but they recently did an episode on cannabis, and the neuroscientists all over Reddit are like, This is not true. It's not slightly wrong. It's untrue. And the problem is, these podcasters have massive platforms. But a neuroscientist who works in a lab with cannabis and has written a bunch of papers about cannabis in the brain, has almost no platform. They have a platform among academics that read papers about cannabis in the brain, which is like a maybe low double digit now, maybe high double digit number to be generous or triple digit number, that's low of people who would look at those, even the abstract of those studies and be like, Oh, but a podcaster. I mean, like me or even somebody like, God forbid, if Joe Rogan gets a hold of something and says a wrong thing like we, I feel a large sense of responsibility for this. When I get stuff wrong, it sucks. Unfortunately, I'm in a position of getting some small or large things wrong, like every single week, maybe more. And so I get these emails and I'm like, Oh man, we got to put that in the notes. The problem is, though, you can make a lot of money, especially in the health space, just straight up lying to people about pretty much anything, whether it's cannabis in the brain, drinking cold plunges, body language. There's, as you probably know, millions of dollars to be made telling people that you can train them to detect lies, for example, and it's just not really true. Was it Joe Navarro that I had on the show? I'm trying to remember as Joe Navarro, and he's like, Yeah, I've been a detective with the FBI for this long and agent with the FBI didn't like training to all these detectives working with the FBI. All this stuff. And he's like, I'd say, coin flip. If you really train someone, if they can tell if it's a lie in slightly better, if they're interrogating somebody and they can catch them in a lie through training and getting them to answer things. But he's like knowing if the cashier at a drug store is lying to you about a thing that you ask them because you're looking at their body. He's like maximum coin flip. Usually, people who train themselves to detect lies are wrong more than somebody who just randomly guessing because they're looking for evidence that is not there. Yeah, totally 100 percent agree with that. And I think our culture needs to be OK with you're supposed to be wrong. I think the whole point of discovery and if you're the person, that's right, all the time is like dangerous. You don't want that. You want to be part of that problem. Yeah. And like, I mean, honestly, if I were to watch some of the videos of me speaking like 15 years ago about this same topic, I there would be moments where I would be maximum cringe. Yeah, like just looking at myself, like, why are you saying that? You know, like, what are you doing, kid? I'm pretty sure that I'm leaning forward right now because I have to speak into this microphone and I'm on this chair. Yeah. So someone who's watching the wide angle of the show is going to go, Oh, well, the body language of these two body language experts actually says that they're not confident because they're late and it's like, it's total says we're in chairs and we were instructed to leave less than six inches between the microphone and us, but do tell do tell a guy who took a body language course on YouTube last week. There's so much of that we need to understand is there's always this projection of the way people think someone else needs to be. So some people would think that if I'm even talking about concepts of body language that I should look a certain way that I feel like I need to sit up like Jordan. It's so good for you to have. Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure. And that's their concept of what good communication is and it really what you're optimizing for. Like, we know each other, like I'm optimizing to have a good time, just have a conversation. I'm not trying to be like, Oh, well, this way, that way. But if I was optimizing for maybe longevity or health or something like that, I might be sitting differently. Like I might have my, you know, have better posture or just something. I'm always working it up. And it's not because the perception of people who are watching. So there's a distinction between those things. Tell me the why reading the body language, the lie detection stuff is nonsense. Can we get into a little bit of the weeds on that? Because I am curious how we once thought. Oh, feet pointed towards the door, not making eye contact, touching the nose. I mean, that stuff people do. I guess when they're nervous is the reason because people can be nervous for reasons other than they are lying is at the heart. Human behavior just so infinitely complex. There are so many different mechanisms that can change or move your behavior. But really, at the core is the fact that there's this thing I call like the social layer, which is basically when you're in a social space, you're not seeing a pure representation of somebody, somebody's thoughts and feelings and emotion or anything like that. You're seeing that through this mask of social norms, social coordination, social projection, there's a name someone could show up and they want to act more confident and they come across a little bit weird, a little bit abrasive. And then you're perceiving that. So the truth is, when we look at like body language or nonverbal behavior as a discipline, it's not about meaning, it's about perception. And that's the biggest distinction. So if I cross my arms and look a certain way, it doesn't mean I don't like the person. But we can map society's bell curve distribution and understand that most people would find a problem with that. So it's this sort of unwritten rule or unwritten norms that we have to understand in order to interact in social interactions. And here's the thing is, we would have a hard time with it. It's like when anybody is out there preaching more awareness, more attention to your behavior. Being the kind of person that listens better is a phenomenal stuff, right? I like that. The problem is when you take some basically bulls**t and you imprint somebody's perception with it, then it changes the way they see the world. So when you hear, like a CIA expert said, that if somebody scratches their nose, they're lying now when that person's on a date and. See, the person scratched your nose because her nose is itching. They are like, Oh my God, there's a lot that could be a liar. Yeah, which most of the work around this is not really about like learning the themes or clusters of behavior. It's nothing to do with that. It's confronting your own perception, your own biases. It's way deeper than most people really realize. My first clue that a lot of the body language stuff was nonsense was when I started learning that polygraphs weren't admitted in criminal cases, and I was like, Why not? This is a lie detector test, and it's like they hook you up to something that reads your your heart. I forget the name of this machine that, you know, is it EKG, or is that now the biggest thing that they focus on? Really? And a lot of them, I think, are maybe not anymore, but GSR galvanic skin response. Yeah, the sweating, sweating. And that's like a high level and then heart rate. I'm good story for that. Yeah, I'd love to hear it because I thought, Oh, wow, this really complex scientific machine is only, I can't remember, like 86 percent effect. And there's all that's not good enough, and there's a lot of reasons that they can go wrong. And so they're used as a tool and not as like conclusive proof. So I thought, OK, if the best science we have today in science is decent right now, can't detect alive better than this, then this human who's dealing with way more channels of input, but also way more lenses and biases and missing certain things, and is not sitting there asking this person a set of questions, but is just like, I feel like you're lying, and I can't put my finger on why that's going to be way less accurate, but by how much? Because between a coin flip, which is 50, 50 and 86 percent, OK, there's a little margin there, but like not quite big enough for me to say, you're a human lie detector. Yeah, I mean, even as a while, there's a couple of studies on ephemera his ability to protect deception. So they're really looking at like real time activity in the brain, and they can't even do it, really. So it's not surprising because we're complex and the perception is not this binary thing like you're very rarely the only way you can do like control things is like two truths one lie like you can probably watch 100000 videos of to choose one lie and start to get better at that. Not because of behavior, but because there are certain trends and patterns where people might lie the most the first time. Or they might over like little like patterns. But applying that to day to day life and like the spectrum of skill sets, I really feel like dating is probably the easiest place to understand or read behavior or predict behavior is a better term, and deception is probably the hardest. And the truth is most of the people that are good at this. So I used to do in my class in New York City, I had a little fun thing where people would sit there, watch 15 clips of the same person lying or telling the truth and had to guess which one it was. And most of the time it was like 50 percent. And almost always the people that were very confident were the worst because they thought they knew that I had this one guy come in and he got like an 85 and I was like, What the hell like? It was just so out of the norm, and I was like, Well, what's up with that? What do you do? And he kind of like, smirked at me. OK, what do you do for a living at a time? I think he was the head of the theft department at Bloomingdales in New York City. Oh, wow. And his whole job loss was basically loss prevention, right? Is a whole job was sitting there and knowing if someone actually he had ground truth like he knew if they either stole something or did it and was watching their behavior. And like, he just developed this sort of pattern, and that was the same example of what he does all day. But if we were to test him over the course of thousands of hours, maybe he would be like 60 percent or 65. Sure. But I refer to that as like the art where it's like some people. If you've got people in the same exact social construct doing the same thing over and over again. Sometimes they develop this intuition for what's going on, but you can't apply the lessons from that to anything else. There was a guy I talked to years ago and I wanted to interview him, but he declined, which is, you know, unusual. He worked for a casino group and he could tell who was cheating by looking at the camera, not by looking at their hands cheating. He would just see people do things and he would go watch the guy with a brown shirt. This guy is up to something. And he couldn't explain necessarily why. He said there's reasons if he thinks about it, but initially he just goes way. Would I keep doing that? It keeps going from one table, then it goes the other table and he goes to this table. That was the only example he would give me, which I think is weird, because don't people think that their luck is over here and now it's over? And he just said, Nah, there's a little things that normal people who are gambling, they don't usually do. And then he would start to watch them, and he would start to watch the pit boss if he thought they were colluding or the dealer or other people at the table. And it was like, Why is that guy always? He switches tables, but then that guy switches the table later and they end up playing together and he ends up winning more when that guy is that. And he's like, I think those guys are cheating. I asked him, Wow, you must be really good at seeing if somebody is cheating. And he's like, Yeah, but I couldn't. He made a joke like, Yeah, but I didn't even know my own wife was cheating, and I was like, What are you talking about? And he's like, Yeah, my wife, like, left me for some other guy. And I thought that was interesting because I thought, Wouldn't you know this? And he's like, No of. Course not, I can see people on a CCTV camera doing suspicious things that he's like, but I lived with somebody who is doing something that was a really suspicious and he's like. And the worst part, my wife wasn't even a good liar. So like, he missed that whole thing. Like, if he was looking at video cameras of people doing something, he would probably catch it. If he's living with somebody and they're doing something well, obviously, he doesn't always have his feelers up for that. I just thought that was really interesting. Like you said, checking for or spotting deception in one context, like if you're a police interrogator or a terrorism interrogator, you might be able to find terrorists really well. You're not going to know if your teenage daughters bulls**tting you. Totally different contacts, and she might be better at it. The stakes are lower. All kinds of stuff. The context really matters. And the truth is like if you want to have a lenses or glasses for spotting deception, it's a tough way to go through life like constantly. Because the truth is, the way to actually detect lies is more of an interrogation process. There's no way to just watch someone and be like, Oh, they look that way too. Like, You have to catch them, you have to put traps, you've got to do all these like interrogation type things. But like to your point, I did the largest study ever conducted on poker players. So like, I have a very focused, concentrated niche working with like a top poker players in the world and some of them will sit them down. You'll have them like, why did you make that Reid or why did you make that call? And they can't explain the actual components of it. So they have this rapid cognition and the ability to understand. But they can't reverse engineer it and not in poker, but in like life and communication pattern and social skills. Some of those people or some of the most dangerous trainers and coaches because they don't even know what they are doing. So they'll just explain things like, oh, like, sit this way or do this is that without any mechanistic reason on why there is one genius? I think his name is David Lieberman. You know, others, guy. He is a psychologist who wrote a ton of books on deception, and I could be getting his name wrong. I have to check and I'll have to check the episode number. But one technique that stuck with me for years was when somebody says, Let's say they were late, you say, Oh, because of the water main break on such and such road. Now they then have to decide. Or you say they were late because of traffic, it must be because the water main break on such and such if they're a liar. Right? You suspect they're lying. They're going to have to spend some time deciding whether or not they're going to agree with your complete fabrication, that there was a water main break on that road and then say yes or no. And the hesitation is the thing that he's looking for, because if you're not lying, you just go. I didn't know about that, but that explains the traffic, but you would do it really fast. But if you go in? No. Well, I don't. Maybe there was. That's the lie, because you had to think to. I agree with this person right now, even though I'm lying. That seems weird. How would I know about that? That little pause is like, how you? But that's how you catch like a teenager in a lie. Yeah. Like I'm still A. All that still a.. It goes back to these like theories that lying is more cognitively demanding than telling the truth. But like, here's the thing. Ultimately, we got to change the perception of what lying even is really matters. So, for example, the best way to catch someone a lie is to make some s**t up and have them agree. So like speaking to an academic once, I don't know. This person just seemed overly agreeing with me and I was like, Have you read like the Solomon 2014 meta analysis that got into all that stuff? And he's like, Oh yeah, great study. I just made that up, right? It's not real study. So from from a societal view, that person lied. But there's deeper mechanisms for understanding why that person lied. And I think those are so much more important. People assume that like liar bad. And the truth is he might have just felt really intimidated in that moment or really shy or really embarrassed or wanting to agree with me because of a ton of reasons and not even had some sort of Machiavellian real reason on why they lie. And I think the amount of liars out there that are just like overtly lying and now they're so much smaller compared to the other reasons why people do things like people are complex. Sometimes you lie to somebody or you say something a little bit off because you want to embarrass them or you don't want to do this. So it's just so multifaceted. Yeah, that's true. Someone lying to you to get them to like you, to get you to like them, rather. Yeah, it's not the same as the person is lying to you because they want to con you out of your life safely, like the intent really matters. Sometimes we don't ask enough questions. We don't talk to people enough. We just want to make that snap judgment and be done. I think you'll be better navigating through life if instead of being hyper focused, let's say, had a world class ability to spot liars. Being more curious with why they lied is a better gateway towards understanding them, manipulating them, having them in your life. People are complex and we've got to stop like doing these binaries in these labels that just like, encapsulate someone. I started to get really tired of it recently when I was looking at some comments on a very I don't read YouTube comments because it's like 99 percent braindead, but there's a lot of comments on appearances that I'm doing on other people's shows because it's not my audience. My audience will be like a lot of positive stuff and that a lot of like weird Bible quotes from the usual suspects on YouTube that just comment Is that really what it is? Yeah, there's a I don't know what it is. I don't want to offend people here. I'm not saying religious people are mentally ill. What I'm saying is there's a lot of mentally ill people on YouTube, and what they will do is they will just post a random Bible quote on a video. And at first I was like, Oh, I wonder what that quote is about. It must be related to my discussion about this, and it's just totally like end times nonsense. And I realize they're just spamming every video of this because they're trying to warn non-believers that the second coming of Christ is coming. And I'm like, What does that have to do with me interviewing, like, you know, Andrew Schulz or something, you know, like nothing. And so like talking about the ocean, it's like this person's quoting. Then I'm like, Oh, that's weird. What connection can that have none? But a lot of the comments that I see on other people's YouTube, there'll be a camera right here like there is here, and someone will say his eyes were really shifty. I don't like that guy's eyes were shifty. Well, there's lights here. There's a key light here, there's a camera there, there's an audience over there. But then the camera that's facing me is there in the host this year. Where am I supposed to look again? The host? But sometimes I'm making a point for the camera. Other times the audience is reacting to me, so I'm smiling at them, and then I turn back to those like a normal person would do in a situation like that who isn't like ridiculously media trained or in a giant studio with a lights blind you for the audience. So there's no point in looking at them because you can't see them and you can only see the host, right? So you're only look at that. So these people are like, Oh, his eyes are shifty. I don't believe what he's saying. Well, OK, but you're you're not there. You're at home with a bag of Cheetos and crumbs all over your shirt. Looking at this video on YouTube, that is kind of how we teach people to read behavior to source the contextual reasons on why an event can be occurring and then assign almost like probabilities like software. It will do this too. Like, that's what's so interesting, right? Like all of a sudden, like I could be constantly looking over there are consciously looking for something because the cue on the time is there and people go so quickly to creating some narrative that's usually and listen, everybody listening to that. If you find yourself along or certain narrative like you will find that there's patterns and people like these perceptual defaults for what they look at like, I don't trust them. And you'll see themes for where they look in their life for all the signs of not trust. It's 100 percent of you problem like you're viewing the world for indications and signs are not to be trusted, and you need to do your own work to see why you just distrust everybody and why you're looking for that. Because the truth is, like we are saying, this was so true, like humans are such sheep compared to the frame of the way something is framed that you can just frame anything and people see that thing. So I could have you watch a video and say, like, highlight all the good qualities about this person or highlight all the bad qualities about this person. Or you could be like some sort of like spazzy person in the corner looking around and a bunch of different directions. No one pays attention to them. And then I could walk up to someone and say, Listen, you know who that is? That's the founder of one of the most deep, deep AI tech companies in the world. Guys worth like $6 billion. And all of a sudden you frame their behavior as like, Ooh, interesting. That's like the erratic genius. So we're such a victim of context that we need to do a better job of absorbing more context before we make these real decisions about people. If you are a well-known person, rich famous, or maybe you have a role like a host or comedian. People will say, I love that no nonsense allowed this a no nonsense guy. No, no. If I act the same way I would and maybe a conversation with somebody on this show, if I do that same thing in a social context or like at a family party. It's kind of it's a little bit inappropriate, sometimes like, Oh, you're just not going to sugar, you're just going to say, what's on your mind? It's not really how we do things over here at Thanksgiving, at grandma's house. Like, you get to play nice a little bit and it's like, this is my authentically who I am. But like also me being really polite in front of a bunch of old people who cooked dinner for me is also authentically, yeah. I mean, and also just like the best communicators have range like they have the ability, whatever the dynamic is, they can give it. Sometimes there are times where you have to be dedicated and listening. Sometimes there are times where you have to be more extroverted and outgoing and all these types of things. And the truth is, a lot of these dynamics are governed by these social norms that people don't even see. What about the uptick in the popularity of true crime has seemed to make people really look at the suspect who's already been convicted of the murder or like is the only suspect in a murder? And there's tons of evidence, but not enough to convict. And there's a lot of sort of armchair. This is why we know they did it, kind of, folks. And I found this when I had Amanda Knox on the show, and I got a lot of messages about why, oh, she's a sociopath, and she really sucked you in hook, line and sinker. But I read the case. I looked quite a bit at it and I prepped a lot of it. You know, I didn't just take her word for it. I looked at all the fact that there's a reason she's not in prison in Italy right now. And the reason is because they found a whole bunch of reasons why they should have let her out and they did on appeal. And you and I talked about this pretty show. People were saying things like, Well, that's just not how people act when they have their roommate murdered. How do you know what you would act like if your roommate was murdered? I'm curious. Let me know. I've never had that happen to me. I have no clue how I would react if my roommate. That I only knew for a few weeks, of course, and didn't spend much time with in another country was murdered, I have no idea what I'd be devastated and fly home immediately or what. I just be kind of confused, I don't know. My dad passed like three months ago. Four. He had two years of Alice. Like really tall man. Really hard to see. That's, yeah, terrible. But what was interesting for me is to see, like how people showed up when I would say he had Alice and how people would. So I'll give you an example. So one client, I said, Hey, I can't make it. My dad was just diagnosed with ALS and they were like, No worries, just give me a refund if you can't make it. So I was like, That's cold. That's like one of the most coldest. Yeah. Like, how could you? But I quickly went back and I was like, Maybe they don't know what else. I'm pretty sure that's and that's what it was. Yeah. So a week later, when they found out like, Oh s**t, like this is like they send flour like they were incredible. But the truth is, I could have changed my whole relationship with those people. I could have been in a narrative like, Who are they? That it, it it it. Why not do this? Why not do that? But the truth is, some people don't know it. And as I started going through life, most people didn't know like, Oh, OK, I hope he's OK. I'm like, No, he's going to be dead in two years, and I'm like, The worst thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also just to see how people handled like at the wake and at the funeral, like how they dealt. Some people have a hard time dealing with death. Yeah, sometimes you talk to someone, and the reason why they're a little bit more reserved is they're holding it in because it's reminding of them of when they lost their mother two years ago. But we just make all these judgments about people should be a certain way. Tom worked with them for a decade, and he didn't even cry like, maybe too much emotion exactly. Or maybe Tom was crying at home, or maybe the other. So you just got to give people a little bit of. And the truth is the people that are like that that have a tendency of making others wrong that say things should go a certain way or not. We did a lot of suffering in their own lives, man. They suffer a lot because it sucks going through life, thinking everybody should be a certain way and they're not being that way, being disappointed every time. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's funny. Well, I shouldn't say that. I should say it's interesting. You mentioned ALS because that disease terrifies me. The worst one, I it's the worst. What? So for people who don't know and I hate that, I'm asking you to explain it a little, but I'm sure you're up on it. Can you explain it a little because it's got to be just one of the worst things? Yeah. So als is a motor neuron disease where essentially your motor neurons start just dying off. What's tough about ALS is, like most people live between two to five years. But as you go down that progression, every A-list patient's progression looks completely different, but you just start losing muscle function. So for my dad, he was diagnosed three months after he was diagnosed. He lost the ability to move his tongue so he couldn't speak anymore. Then he lost the ability to move both arms, then both legs. And within a year, he was fully essentially paralyzed and could only communicate with eye gazing technology. Oh my God, I mean, like, I get like a like, but it was like the best and worst thing that happened to me as a person. It was horrible to see. Yeah, the thing it did for me as a gift my dad gave me is my anchor for everything is I don't have ALS. Yeah. So like yesterday, like the flight was delayed for like four hours and I was like late. I was in the plane and first second I caught myself going like, Oh, I just want to land and I'm like, You're in a plane. You have access to all these shows. You have your health. You don't have ALS. And I always come back to that. And I think at the end of the day, like, it's nothing matters except your health, right? And yeah, it's just something that's so important. And just being grateful for even the emotion of frustration like that, you can have that. Yeah, it was really, really hard to see if anybody has anybody that goes through that. Please reach out to me. I've had already four or five calls with families that just because I just, you know, my A-plus personality, you find all the doctors and all the things and all the stuff. Good idea. Yeah, I mean, I would do the same thing. Yeah, you go down that rabbit hole, but you hear something interesting going back. If I were to start all that over, like I spent a ton of money on alternative treatments and let's fight this. I don't think that's what my dad truly wanted. He was doing that for the family. Yeah. If I were to go back as soon as he was diagnosed, I was like, We're stopping everything. We're doing a crazy four week vacation while you, yeah, forget the right foods. Just live your life, you know, fried s**t. Every fried s**t. Let's go out with a bang, right? Let's not try to do all this. And I had to accept that my dad, the way he was showing up with the disease was not how. But how do I know how I would show up? How do you ever know? Right. But yeah, and it's a challenge like, why aren't you carrying more? Why are you trying to like, you know? Yeah. So it's tough. It's funny. You mentioned that I was reading an email for our Feedback Friday segment and somebody was furious at their relative who had a terminal illness because they're sitting around playing Candy Crush on their phone all day, which is like the epitome of wasting time, according to everybody. But that's what that person wants to do. They're kind of like, they've kind of give it up. They're not spending no time with their family. They just they don't want to travel, they don't want to do, and then they have their reasons for it. And they've been like, Look, I don't want to travel, I want to spend the money and I want to do it. I'm going soon. I'm relaxing. This person is having a really hard time accepting that, which I understand because I'm like, Dude, Candy Crush, let's go on a cruise. I'll pay for it. Don't spend that. But the person is like, No, I have six months left. I don't care if you spend it with my phone and laying on the couch. I mean, it's all about like. So for me, like I remember, like the toughest conversation was like, literally like one of the ending talks for me and my dad, like over text message. It's like the cry five times. But like I said to him, I was like, What do you want your legacy to be? Do you want me to, like, create a foundation? Do you want to? Because I'm all about, like entrepreneurial creation and makes up. And then he just said, I'll live through you. And I walk in like, you're going to make me cry. Like I said, Dude, I started just like tearing up, and I was just like, Oh my God. And like going back to the discussion on kids, that was like one of the things that like, talk about a legacy, right? Like body language dip. If somebody does this or they're here, they're trying to hold back tears. Yeah. And also like, it's just. But I'll tell you one thing for anybody that's going through anything, family dying or any sort of issues. The greatest thing about it was that I was fully complete with my dad. There was nothing left unsaid. There was no resentments. There was no. We had all the conversations we had, all when he passed. And oddly, I was with our friend John Levy, when he passed. Oh my gosh, it was one of the best people to be with because we were with like 20 people and we were doing all this stuff. And he's a very caring guy. He's not going to be like, Hey, you're harsh in my life. I mean, John John was like, We're inviting your family over to go back. Like, He's just wonderful like that. Yeah, he jumps to help and connect, and he was like one of the perfect people to have around. But I was at peace. It wasn't. Oh my god, I wish I would have said this. I wish I would have said that my mom and my sister. AP So if there's any conversations that you need to have with people, I have a big thing like me and my wife, like we try never to ever leave like angry because it might be the last time you see that person. Oh my gosh, you know, so like if you have a little fight or whatever, just clean it up. That's interesting in the timing there and for the reason we mentioned John Levy well when you were with him. But he's an adventure signed are studies the science of adventure, which is kind of a thing that I was like, OK, you made that up, you get. Fair enough. He's gotten a lot of media because his thing is he has people over to his house is a very creative way to network. He has people over to his house and you're not allowed to say who you are or what you do, but you make dinner and everybody switches stations and there's like a guacamole station and you make this like mediocre burrito dinner type thing. But I remember the first one I went to have been a bunch now, the first one I went to on. I meet show guests at these things all the time because the people there were incredible. I was washing dishes and I was like, Why is this guy in a bow tie? William explaining how the soap connects bonds to things. And it was Bill Nye the Science Guy because of the Oh everybody, I knew there. How did you not know how to pronounce body that guy? I'm like, I'm just sort of like, I'm a Mr. Wizard Guy, right? This is like 80s is Canadian. I think Canadian TV kind of like raged out of it. But yeah, I was making guacamole with this really nice guy, and I was like, OK, what did you say her name was? She's like Regina Spektor. And I was like, Oh, hi, nice to meet you. I was like, Really? It's funny because you're making brownies with some guy and he's like cursing up a storm. He's like, I didn't read brownies in my lifetime is like the founder of Public Enemy. Oh, it's funny. It's making brownies like that, dude. It's just so yeah, being around that guy is like such an incredible community and no big heart like that. It's quite funny. Let's switch gears a little bit. We definitely got off topic and yet somehow brought it home. Good job, Blake. Judging by your posture right now, I can tell that you are ready to support the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Chewy, we have two hairless cats that get nothing less than the royal treatment, which is basically the only way you're allowed to treat a cat. Apparently, Chewy is our trusted resource for their favorite treats, like chew through likeable cat treats and all their other essentials. Whether you have a furry, scaly, feathery or weird, hairless, wrinkly cats like ours, I guess you wouldn't have scaly cats. Chewy offers everything you need to keep them well cared for and happy. Need prescriptions insurance a quick vet consultation from the comfort of your own home. Chewy has you covered there. That's a great idea, by the way. They're even expanding with that clinics nationwide for those times that you need in-person care. Chewy's auto ship feature is flexible. 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Real quick What's the easiest choice you can make? Swapping old light bulbs for LED bulbs enrolling in automatic payments? What about selling Shopify? What I love about Shopify is that they got your back as you grow. No matter how big you want your business to get, Shopify gives you all the tools you need to step up and take things to the next level. If you're thinking of launching anything, whether it's a STEM kit, brain teasers, review workbook, Shopify make selling a breeze. If you bought anything online, it's likely powered by Shopify. And have you noticed how quick Shopify is? Checkout is? It's about 36 percent faster than the competition. Shopify equips sellers with all the tools you need from creating compelling product descriptions to engaging blog posts with its intuitive dashboard, you are in full control smoothly handling orders, optimizing shipping, overseeing payments right from your phone. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify eCommerce slash Jordan. In our case, go to Shopify eCommerce sites Jordan now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Shopify.com/ Jordan. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, creators, scientists every single week, it is because of my network and I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself for free. Over at six minute network income, I know I'm not looking for a podcast. Why do I care about that? This course is not about booking for a podcast. It is about improving your relationship, building skills and developing connections with other people in non cringy non what's in it for me? Very down to Earth Way. No, no awkward strategies. No cheesy tactics. Nothing that's going to make you look or feel bad. Just practical exercises that will make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better friend, a better peer. It's great. Even if you're retired, it's great if you're new in your career. Yes, it works for autistic people. These are all questions I've gotten in the last 48 or so hours. Look, it takes like five or six minutes a day, really. It's a light light lift, and many of the guests on our show subscribe and contribute to the course. So come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course at six minute networking dotcom. Now back to Blake Eastman. I like the idea. I find the idea that most reading behavior is about reducing our own faults and biases is quite interesting, but it's also kind of really hard to do. That goes without saying that's like a lifetime of lifetime work of work. Yeah. And the problem is the person who says they've done this and can tell if you're lying, it's like the last person you should ever listen to about this, I think, reduces the wrong word. I think it's all. Just be aware of it. It's not about reduction because your brain, I mean, you've had a couple of good predicting processing people on this podcast. Your brain is processing. It's reality based on past models, and it's very hard sometimes like, Oh, it's it's hard to change. Behavioural change is not easy, but just the awareness of noticing like, Oh, I made that person wrong right there. That is half the battle. The danger is when you don't notice, the danger is when you actually think that's what's actually occurring. And the truth is, the more you hear other people's stories, the more you understand how often you're wrong, the better the mechanism works. So for example, if somebody sat in front of a video and they saw all these people doing things and they made all these predictions, and then they got the real reasons on why the person was acting the way that they were acting it adjust the feedback loop to show where they're wrong. And then then hopefully they're started or making incorrect inferences about people like everywhere. I'm going, that's not most people like 90. I don't know what the percentages, but most people are just going to go through life, never changing their lenses or glasses for the world, and they're going to suffer because of those glasses. And it's just useful to be able to catch like, what things bother you, what aspect when you meet someone for the first time and you just don't like them, you don't know the person. How do you not like them? Yeah, it's probably based on 80 percent of time. It's something you like about yourself. The other 20 percent of time, it's some unresolved conflict with someone that you met. Like, I met someone that had a voice that just like a very like L.A. Valley, and I was just like, I am now going to be able to. Do this. She was wonderful, she just talked weird, like, you know, like just give people some slack and life is easier. That's funny that you mention that. It's also funny that I believe before the show you were saying, whatever somebody says, x percent of people do this. It's impossible to ascertain. You just I don't know. I'm in a I like 80 percent, like 20 like like generals. Any Yeah, but any time you hear any percentage of people, you know, they'll listen to, like nine minutes out of mean. Ninety three percent of communication is not nonverbal. Actually, this is I have a better one. Whenever it's precise, don't listen, I say so whenever it's like 93 percent or ninety two like that. Some study that articulated the behavior a certain way, it's like can't be repeated. Right, that's that's true. Yeah, you just pick a different sample and it's like, Oh, it turns out it was 61. Yeah, 61 here. And next year it's going to be 55. I know you're doing some interesting stuff with AI and body language detection. Prediction is at the top. Yeah, so I, a company called behavioral robotics, that's the end goal is to teach machines to read human behavior or predict human behavior. OK. Right now, we're deep in a phase of using AI, specifically computer vision, to deconstruct all facial movements. So, for example, right there the way that you moved your face, your forehead, I did that on purpose. So, yeah, but I didn't think you would notice that skill set. Yeah. So we have like a mechanism for mapping the speed, morphology, duration and timing of that movement. So like right now, we we have a system called Cheshire that measures and quantify smiles. We have the ability to there. Yeah, that's a cat from Alice in Wonderland, the generico. I have pet names for all my systems like I have like Sherlock System and like a great part about being a founder. Yeah, you can differentiate. Weird. Yeah, yeah. But you know, when the government does that, they named these things like crazy acronyms came up with that. The Death Star. But you know, yeah, that's pretty awesome. So is this similar to is it called facts of facial, so called facial action coding system is a system that measures underlying muscle movement. Yeah, it's fax is actually we kind of have our own version of facts like, OK, it's based on facts, but upgraded its facts, but it's way more complex. So if you think of the lines of data, the facts is just one line of like 15 data sources. So part of the reason is I'm trying to really massively build off that work. And there's I can have like a very complicated I'm trying not to go into the nuances of facial action coding double level. It's more about picking up patterns in people's movement and comparing it to the person. So have you ever been online and seen like someone like smile? And they're like, happy, like, that's nonsense. Like someone just moving their face in a facial configuration? That doesn't mean that they're happy. OK, so a lot of these, like emotional AI or sentiment analysis tools, they're making inferences that are based on facts. And there's this is a whole rabbit hole of questionable whether research or not. Can you actually identify emotion in the face is like a hot topic in neuroscience and emotion and all that, so we don't really care about that. I guess what we care about, like if we follow Jordan over the course of 60 hours and we look at your smiles, we find that there's this distribution or buckets of the way that you smile. So there might be like Jordan's. I genuinely really interested and excited about something there might be like, OK, move on. I don't really care about smiling, right? They all these variations, and we find that in most people, they're quite durable. So like machines can predict those models and understand the person and be able to sort of sift through that data set. That's really neat and also scary because I find and my wife calls me out on this all the time. I often smile because I'm thinking of something wildly inappropriate that should never be shared, and she'll be like, What's so funny? And I'm like, Oh, that thing that that guy on Netflix said. And she's like, Why then, is that we're watching like something that's not funny yet. And then she's like, What? Tell me I really don't want. So like, I got to tell her to, like, record a video of it. So it's probably like this really cool timing where it's like, you're kind of regulating it a little bit like you're trying to hold it back. And then the grin comes off that you start thinking about it and you're like, Should I say this right now or not? Yeah. The good thing is now I have kids and I go, Oh, I was just thinking of that time that Jaden said something, really? Yeah. And she's like, Oh, OK, know? But it's never that. Yeah, it's completely, completely different. And then also just using this as a almost like a social diagnostic tool. So predicting if someone is like, what are the patterns of behavior that makes someone unlikable, like, why do we not like people? And we're taking more away, more data driven approach by like? So one of the most interesting questions I love is like, we do a conversation study in all programs, in everything we do. This question is so revealing it's on a scale from one to five. How likely are you to invite this person to a dinner with your closest friends? Oh, interested is so much better than any. Like, how much would you like? Because the crowd in an action that's interest. And then I see certain people, they never get invited and it's like, All right, why? What are the underlying patterns of their communication? The Pacific? Quality of their voice, like the types of things that they're saying and why do some people always get invited? And what we're solving for is just as understanding the society has these perceptual type of things here, and that's what we're trying to unlock it. Understand. Can people identify reasons always why they don't like someone? Because I feel like often I can't do that now. That's my I think that's my gift. I see my gift is looking at someone and begging. No one likes, but I know exactly why. Yeah, like, it's your smile timing. It's the conversational tone. It's the negative frames. It's the this is that like I can piece part is that's what I've been. So I do for a lot of companies and people. I just look at it like, All right, why am I coming across like a dick? It was obvious, like, you can sort of see it, but people don't see it. My wife is good at that, I'll say. I don't know why that was not super crazy about her and sugar. Well, the reason is because this and then this other thing and then this other thing, and then they'll be like one thing I didn't notice her share. Maybe don't share her opinion on. And then she'll say, and there's more, but whatever else you want to tell me, that's great. And then I'll say the thing I noticed was this and she's like, Well, not only that, and she'll just add on and I'm like, Yeah, a person really did all those things. But for me, it almost goes unnoticed. It's like, Oh, they did one annoying thing. And Jen's like, now that she did like 10 annoying things. If you were to watch video of the interaction, it's easier that makes the viewer sit back and just watch like, Oh, OK, OK, OK, I see that and I and we use video I'm obsessed with VIDEO There's also you're right, there is some telling where someone's trying to get you to. This is one thing I've identified that drives me nuts. If someone's trying to get me to like them and it can be the tone that they're using, a little humble brags that are just on this unnecessary. I don't like that, and I feel like it's I used to call it trying too hard. But that's not really fair because of course, everybody wants to be liked. It's the reason that they're trying to be like that drives me nuts if they're just like a young, insecure kid. I really don't that. I don't mind. I get it. You're 19. You're hanging out with grown ups who want to take you in as one of us, that's actually totally fine. But when it's another adult, I'm like, What do you want from me? You're not being honest with what you want from me, and that freaks me out. Just tell me, flat out what it says. Yeah, like if you're like buttering me up to have you on the podcast or something like that, just I respect you more. If it's a clunky ask, then if you're like, I'm going to just subtly name drop all these people and that part, that stuff drives me, I just feel, get into it. Yeah. Also, so this was so interesting, like the path to someone is predicting their bell curve of experiences. One of the big things I teach, right? So like, I see a fan wants to connect with you or whatever right before they even walk up to you. I would be thinking as a fan, what is his average fan like experience look like? And let me try to do something different. You did this on me like 12 years ago. So huge fan. Let me explain what you did to me. Not a fan who is so smart and so I never feel good because I know this is. No, no, no. I never forgot it. I think the first podcast we did, like 12 years ago, 13 years ago, maybe it was a long time ago. For whatever reason, at that time of my life now I've been in boxes for like close to a thousand days. At the time in my life, smoking, I was very bad on email and I knew about you. I liked you and I didn't answer the email and you replied back, Do you remember this now? So you well, maybe you reply back, you were like, Hey, Blake, I think it was something along as like, you framed it as like, I was really looking forward to talking to you, like you framed it in such a crafty way where it was just such this cool compliment without being a compliment. And it's like I was hoping that we could do this podcast almost like it wasn't going to happen. And immediately I was like, Oh no, I would let me do this. I got so interesting. But the way that you reached out was so like genuine and human and not like, OK, f**k this guy. Like, immediately after reading that email, I liked you without even meeting you in person. I was like, That's such a crafty way of like being just real. And to the point and straight, is this a Gmail? Do you think you still have that? I 100 percent have email. Find it, find it. It's going to be an old email for me. Of course, in my old company, yeah, but that should make it easy to find. Just find the first e-mail thread from your me says, Oh, you love email for that reason. Like just the archival aspect, mine is mostly, I have to say on, for the record. Mine is mostly gone because I left my previous company and I would have had no way to go back and copy the email and put it in my new inbox. I don't. It's completely impossible and not in accordance with the agreement that I had with my old company, so I would never do that anyway. How will I amplify human interaction? I know you're coding all this stuff. You have coded all this stuff. You mentioned a robotics company so called behavioral robotics. What are we trying to do with the robots? So hopefully the robots understand us at a more nuanced level than maybe even people do. So people have a prediction about you said that whole analogy you gave me where somebody is looking over to the left or right. And there's a thousand reasons on why people don't have the cognitive capacity to do that. Machines do. They have the ability to predict and based on their own past models that are way bigger data sets than me or you have in our head come up with? Reason, so I think I'm hopefully going to be the person that, like, solve this and be one of the people that pioneer it, but I am a I is a tool who will talk about technology. We've been building technology for our entire life. Like that we invent the spear. We could finally come from a long distance. There's going to be pros and there's going to be cons for absolute sure. There's going to be misuses of it. There's going to be so many things. But I think at the end of the day, it's going to serve human society or the human race in a very powerful way. So my view, if you can create machines and robots that read all that stuff, you'll be able to create AI that has all the same nuanced non-verbal and verbal communication as a real human, a specific, real human way, more nuance because also they'll always be bias in reading. But machines won't have that like emotional level of bias that machines won't be sleepy and a little frustrated. Like they'll just be able to look at the raw, but they'll have to be trained and they'll be biases in them. So we built a system now getting the details of this all, but like, you're also mapping human perception. For example, if I were to speak in New York City on a stage in my same style and people were to perceive me, Oh, a guy's confident that is like energetic. All these things, if I do that in China, then he move his face too much is to carry. It is so relative to culture and to certain dynamics that it depends like a certain podcast like here. I know I've heard a curse, so I know I could curse. Yeah. So like cursing, I feel comfortable all these things. I feel comfortable. Other podcasts create a dynamic where it's just like, OK, don't curse. You might not want to do, then you might want to do this or whatever. You're going to cut it out. So the dynamic that you're in, the construct that you're in, it weighs so heavily on how your behavior and movement is perceived. Why are we teaching robots to read humans? There's got to be a reason is like medical care robots that can keep old people. I don't know. I mean, there are so many use cases like the use cases are absurd. Like, let's use medicine, for example, medicine. We can probably by aggregating data of people with early onset Parkinson's or dementia. There are clues in terms of losing Faisal's paralysis and all that stuff that a machine might be like, OK. And for some diseases that we don't even know, like if your machine is watching you all the time and having this database, it's picking up on things that you never would. So it could have if I had a machine of my dad, it would have predicted things like, we don't have these models yet, but if I were to build it, there were asymmetries in him that I didn't notice as a sign because it's like my dad is getting a little older. Yeah. Now, looking back at it, I'm like, Oh, like, I would have seen certain things. There's also the ability for diagnostics, coaching, education. Just imagine if Syria, you walked in the door and Syria was able to blend like the language models of like Egypt and then like what we're building together. And it's like, Hey, Jordan, I think you're right, man. You seem a little off today. Yeah. And you're like, Yeah, I don't know. And and you could have like an honest conversation with something like that that you just like catches you. I mean, the new cases are insane and robots are going to be in the home for sure at some point or another in our lifetime, for sure. Yeah. You want these things to have a greater level of awareness. It's going to be really interesting when in 10 years. I mean, God forbid, I get a diagnosis of early onset something from like YouTube. Hey, you've been uploading a lot of videos and one side of your face isn't moving as much as it should. You should go get checked out because you might have a stroke in the next 90 days. Yeah, might be something there. I mean, crazy. The fact is, as long as you have the ability to process like obviously more data, the better, right? Like, that's kind of like the central key point behind the entire advertising space is also how you get Terminators so easily. Be careful as long when the Terminator come in, as long as they're using our API, I'm happy. Yeah, as long as I'm profiting from the structure of the user, everybody takes me out and it's like, Are you using behavior robotics? We are OK. I made it, you know? Yeah, blast me and half of the year Machine Gun. Yeah, that actually the T-1000 was kind of he didn't have this API installed. No, he was just kind of, yeah, it's stoic, stoic. That's why that guy was never, I mean, maybe he was, but I don't remember him in many other movies. Arnold, the whole point. Yeah, yeah, he was. He was in X-Files. John Doggett. OK, yeah. I mean, like, he did a fine job not saying anything about that. I would love to hear more about the least liked person kind of thing. I mean, I sort of went off on what drives me nuts, and you went off on the fan thing. But I am very curious about what makes somebody dislikable in groups because I feel like that's a question we get all the time. Yeah, oh, I'm getting feedback from my superiors that I'm not well-liked, but I don't really understand why. So one of the big ones is a low level of social coordination specifically in the face. OK, so a lot of our nonverbal behaviors in our face, people like to think that their emotions, but they're just byproducts of coordination. So for example, like one of the coolest things about humans is that we can there's an information exchange by our movement so that right there? Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Like that shows me that you're listening. If you're watching a video of me, you're not shaking your head at me. That's a good point. Right? Like, you're just listening. So people that have low levels of social coordination specifically in America struggle. So, for example, like you? Take somebody from like Russia and you put them on a team in America and the Russian is just looking in the screen like, this is like what I. Everything is interesting. Yeah, and then you see someone else like, Well, are you interested or are you not interested in it? But then there's like this distribution. So too much social coordination people don't like when you're like, Oh, OK, yeah, yeah, OK. So there's this sort of balance, but specifically on team dynamics, people with low levels of social coordination. The problem is you're not communicating to other people that you're even listening or you understand. So people are lost when they're communicating with you. I got a buddy who escaped Russia after the draft from Putin, and he was telling me about when he went to McDonald's, the first time in Russia back in like, I think it was the eighties or the late 80s or early 90s whenever they open up the first Moscow McDonald's. And one of the things him and his friends were excited about was they heard that the girl who serves you at the cash register smiles at you. And I was like. And and he's like, This is the Soviet Union. People did not smile at. People did not know, especially in a business context. There was absolutely not a thing. So they were like, We're going to see if this girl really smiles when we order our food pizza because they were trained to by the United States. I mean, it's all that I was in Japan two weeks ago, right? I got really sick. I order Uber. I had asked for ketchup accidentally because it was like the default description thing on my way. I ordered Uber, Uber Eats. I was like, You're getting no ketchup in the car. I ordered Uber Eats. The delivery guy comes. He takes everything out. He looks at the printout and it says ketchup. And he's like, Oh, says sorry four times and blows to me, like three times. I'm like, Dude, totally fine. Thank you so much. You imagine it. That happened in in New York. Yeah, I would be like, What is wrong with you wherever you are? It influences that. So that's why I like social coordination. Patterns differ depending where you are on the planet. Social projection differs like in Japan, the culture is more of like this politeness where in New York, sometimes like one of the things I love about the place I was born and raised is when there's that like, weird New York City a*****e but polite at the same time. Like that honesty of just like, yeah, you know, do this said when I was raised in New York is like that. You can go into a coffee shop and somebody says something and another person is not in the conversation chimes in. It looks a little rude to an outsider, but then they're talking. But they're actually yelling because they're one that's across the room. There's traffic and other people are talking and there's talking over those people and then it's fine and it's cool. And just like the pacing of things like, I'm still to this day when I go to coffee shops outside New York City, it's like, Do your job like, like, let's go. Let's hurry, chop, chop. That's why everybody hates New York. Yeah, exactly. All right. And now our artificial intelligence is going to feed your human intelligence, something from our sponsors. We'll be right back. This episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show is brought to you by Booking.com booking dot, yeah, it's finally time for summer travel. We're looking forward to taking a couple of months off to spend with the kids, and Booking.com offers so many possibilities across the U.S. you have eighteen summers with your kids. They're probably not going to want to hang out with you for many of those anyway. So in a couple of weeks, we're taking our two and four year olds on an adventure to San Diego, hitting up the zoo, channeling our inner childhood a little bit. I never got to do a lot of this stuff as a kid because we had a cottage which was the most boring place on Earth. Anyway, I don't know who's more excited me or the kids. Book Income's wide breadth of places to stay across the U.S. makes booking whoever you want to be this summer so easy. Whether you want to party it up in Vegas or you want some island vibes in Hawaii. Explore the plethora of options from boutique hotels to oceanfront resorts on Booking.com. What are you waiting for this summer? You can book whoever you want to be on Booking.com booking that year. Book now with Booking.com. This episode is also sponsored by Progressive. Hey, y'all, whether you love true crime or comedy, celebrity interviews, news, even motivational speakers, you call the shots and what's in your podcast queue, right? And guess what? Not even call the shots with your auto insurance to enter the name your price tool from progressive. The name your price tool puts you in charge of your auto insurance by working just the way it sounds. You tell Progressive how much you want to pay for car insurance. They'll show you a variety of coverages that fit within your budget, giving you options. Now that's something you want to press play on. It's easy to start a quote. You'll be able to choose the best option for you fast. It's just one of the many ways you can save with progressive insurance. Quote today at progressive.com to try to name your price tool for yourself and join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Pricing Coverage Match Unlimited by state law If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable over at Jordan Harbinger.com/ deals. If you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find the code. You don't know if the code exists. Email me Jordan at Jordan Harbinger Accom. I am more than happy to surface that code for you. Fix broken codes where I can. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Blake Eastman. Have you heard about this matching concept that Gladwell wrote about with matching? I forget what exactly what he calls it matching and mismatch, and it had to do with friends where his theory. This is his sort of theory, and I may be getting it slightly wrong, but he's had a lot of us grew up watching friends, true on Friends, the sitcom. They're all matched. Right? When Ross is surprised, he's like, Oh, and his jaw drops and his eyes get really wide and he takes a deep breath in and he pauses and he freezes and they zoom in on his face. So now everybody thinks this is what normal people look like when they're surprised. And so he also brought up Amanda Knox because she was mismatched, and we don't trust people who are mismatched. So she wasn't crying and screaming and tearing her hair out. When her roommate got murdered, she was like hugging her boyfriend and kissing him a little bit and just staring. And they were like, she did it based on her eyes or whatever because she was mismatched. That's Gladwell's know. I mean, that's my same philosophy. I don't know about the whole friends type thing, but like our version of matched would be, behavior is in alignment with what society's bell curve distribution thinks it should be in alignment with, right? Like that kind of thing. And that's important understanding where you're outside. That's a cool thing. So like the bell curve, I just think about everything on the bell curve. But like, you always want to be on the right side of the bell curve, like thinking of IQ, higher IQ, the right, lower key in the left. If you do something too radical, that's on the right side and it messes up, you immediately become the left side. So right like you try to ask a question that's like, Let me try to get in with this person. Ask, like, make an offensive joke. And then they're like, My wife's that and you're like, Oh, and the other side, right? So you have to understand what average is before you start moving over to the right or left. Yeah, it's like artists, right? They're trying to be on that cutting edge. Exactly. That's a perfect example. When you look at really s**tty art or you hear something that's like terrible music, you just go your experiment with it did not work and go to the back of the line, go to the left side of the bell curve, the matching in the social context thing. I think a lot of autistic people have problems with this right because they have to like expend conscious cognitive bandwidth to be like, Oh, that person just told me, good news. I should smile and look at them. Oh, but that was late. Am I going to be weird now? Screw it. I don't know what the timing is supposed to be like. Just smile. Stop smiling now. Keep listening. This is how it was explained to me by somebody who is on the spectrum, and I was like, That sounds exhausting. Whereas if you just tell me something like, Oh, I just got promoted at work, I just automatically smile and say, like, Oh, that's really exciting for you. Meanwhile, an autistic person is sometimes anyway has to be like, smile, ask, follow up question. Listen to answer. Do I engage on the follow up answer? Probably not. Continue on with conversation. But not all of that is it's not automated, so it comes day. Even that can come across as clunky. And it's like, Oh, how exhausting is this? Yeah, it's also not linear. That's what's so hard. Like, when we communicate, it's like massive decision tree. So there's a way, a style. So when you think about linear steps in a social interaction, you come across linear. So you come across like, OK, oh, that's great. I did it like a Nazi in a video, exactly which is coded linear. Well, now they're a little bit better, but like, yeah, and the other clients that were on the spectrum in various cases, and I remember I had one person, I showed a video where this these two people are talking and one person clearly offends the other person and you show it to like everybody and they're like, Oh, that's offensive. And I showed the video to him and he goes, I understand, why would you be? He's just giving feedback. And you didn't see all of that nuance, Emraan, once I explained it all. And I have the most compassion for them because I don't even know what it's like to walk through society constantly, not knowing what's going on. Yeah, right. Like, that's that's hard. And that was one of the reasons Barbara Robotics can hopefully help that. You mentioned earlier using video as a powerful tool for self-development. I would love to hear more about this because I sort of mentioned like YouTube diagnosing me. I said, 10 years, let's make it like 40. I've mentioned YouTube diagnosing me. How do we use video of ourselves to get better at this? Is that possible? Yeah, definitely. So the first thing I love about video is video videos, a pure medium. So in the world of like reading yourself or looking at others, there's all these biases. VIDEO is VIDEO It's just like raw data in front of you, and it shows you what reality is. And there's so much value in that. So like, one of the most helpful things is I did it for a while. I did this like video journal. So I found that when I was writing, I tried journaling. And like I know, I found I was like full of s**t when I was journaling, I'm so optimistic that everything's going to be OK. IRS is coming after me and I'm like millions of dollars in debt and I'll be fine. I'll be fine. Then there's this video of me recording it in the office and like, when I watch it, like I almost want to cry like I was, it must've been like twenty six years old. I had like giant bags under my eyes. Now stare like my face was all puffy. I looked like unhealthy, and I'm like, Yeah, just another month and everything is going to change. And I'm like, It's not going to change, kid. It's a year and sometimes, yeah, a couple of years. A couple of times. When you watch video, you get to see aspects of your state that you can't see when written. Also, if you have a lot of Zoom meetings or a lot of interactions, like sometimes stepping outside of the video, you can see things in others because it's too cognitively demanding to like, talk and watch people. For most people. But then if you watch a video like, Oh, that person didn't like that or that person, as you can see way more, and it's just a snapshot of objective reality. Also, like if you want a relationship coaching I, these people come in. I did a study in my office called the Brown Couch Study really this big brown couch, and it was couples came in for like, assumed like couple coaching, like relationship coaching. But they would just come in. They sit on a couch. I would record them for 45 minutes and I would leave the room and then they would expect me to analyze it. And I go, No, here's here's we're going to do you watch the video and tell me your problems? So they would sit there and they would notice, like, I cut my wife off a lot. Oh, interesting. Like, he speaks 90 percent of the time and I barely speak. And all these themes that you won't see when you're in it. So video just provides an incredible lens for improving yourself. So basically, they don't even need you to do this. That was the whole joke. I was like, You see your problems, right? Like, you know, it'll be $500. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't I wasn't a relationship coach or anything like that. So I was just like doing it. And it was it was fascinating to see the little themes and then like how certain couples were like, there is a Joe Biden's line that like, they're so he's a rapper for those who don't know Joe Biden. Yeah, but like, they're so amazing on the outside, they have to be horrible. Is it just a beautiful way of discussing it and these certain couples that were just like postulating and being like sweetheart? It was just like, Oh, what's going on here, right? Like, use video in your life. If you were recording Zoom meetings or you're on any video, reviewing your footage is very valuable. Have you ever heard of like 9-1-1? Call behavioral analysis where they record the call and they run it through some sort of sentiment or whatever. And I think it's widely known to be some actually maybe going to do a skeptical Sunday episode about this. But it's one of those things where they run your voice through and they say, like, Oh, this person is way too calm for what's going on in this country. That something along those lines vocal analysis is sort of interesting. There's prosthetic qualities to our voice like pitch tone. What does that prosthetic is? I like to think of it as like the melody of a voice. OK, Jordan, how are you versus Jordan? How are you? Like those kind of aspects? Timber, there's all these things. They're very similar to how we process facial expressions and nonverbal behavior. OK? Are there certain themes relative to a dynamic that are useful? Yes. Should you be making real time implications like I would never in a million years want a 9-1-1 system that was rerouting based on vocal quality. And the reason why is people handle trauma differently and people handle an example I was saying before, like, you know, Navy SEALs and an active shooter environment, they're not going to be like, Oh my God sent someone. They're probably going to be calm, collected in the best person that you want on the scene, right? Like, I'm going to kill again. Like this. I don't said anyone. I got this kind of thing. But some people for me, if I were to call 9-1-1, I've listened to so many 9-1-1 calls and something happened to my wife. I would try to be as calm as collected to get the information that I need as quick as possible. But that's not a byproduct of me not flipping the f**k out because my wife is not doing it right like right. So the problem is we have there's a lot of modulation and control over our behavior and that morphs it. Do I think it could be helpful for certain things? Yeah. I mean, there's probably some use cases that I'm maybe not thinking of right now that can be valid, I think. But you know, it's I think it's better for I think it's better for training. So being able to understand when someone's maybe hysterical how you train a 9-1-1 officer to modulate their tone, I say, Listen, slow down, I'm going to help you. It'd be better for that discourse than it would be for identification. They're always hiring people for those jobs, and I'm I'm like, Oh my gosh, can you volunteer some hours a week? Because it would be fascinating. It would be. On the other hand, it might be really traumatizing because you're hearing people's worst day of their lives all the time, and then it's probably like 99 percent. I can't find my cat. Can you send someone to help me find my cat? And you're like, Oh God, and then the next call is like somebody being murdered on the phone or by missed calls from Apple's. Like the thing, you know, like all these types of weird edge cases, I bet you would be so different, like if you were in like a town in middle America versus a big city here or what district you're in. It's it's kind of, you know, how like gambling. One of the reasons is it's addictive is you don't know if you're going to win or lose. You have variable venerable reward or award schedules. Yeah, this is the inverse of that, right? It's variable terror kind of variable trauma. So it's like cat call, but dial, but dial. But dial again, somebody who's too lazy to call the police non-emergency number. Somebody who has a minor fire that's in their kitchen, that's already out and they're not sure what to do. Traumatizing double murder in the background while you're talking to a child? Yeah, and you're just like, Wow. OK, I was not primed for this or I'm now I'm always primed for that. We know it's going to come right, even though is five days a week out of your six day workweek are just like, Where's my cat? How do I find my car got towed? I'm assuming cops FDNY, they all first responders probably deal with a similar thing. It's true like showing up and it's nothing versus, Oh my god, this is serious. You mentioned that voice would be the first breakthrough. One of the first breakthroughs in A.I.. Tell me what you mean by that. I think that in terms of processing and bucketing voice is just easier than the face, and it's just fewer moving parts. Literally. We're moving very moving parts like you can kind of see things almost like a histogram, like you can just like visually see certain aspects to it. I know from my own thing, so we used to do. And just from the translation period. So we use the API assembly A.I., which is it's absurd how good translation is right now. You mean literal translation? No translation from right now as I'm talking to actual text. So like your transcription? Yeah, transcription. Sorry. Yeah, translation, actually. But like transcription was what I was referring. It is insane. I used to pay people like a lot of money an hour to do all of our videos. And now, like when we were checking, we're talking about 99 percent. And I would like no one says 100, but like a hundred percent accuracy, even with what you just did, right? So that would be the heart that was with the technical chunks, and it's picking it up right now. Like, it's just so cool. The one thing that did not work was when I interviewed Dennis Rodman. That machine was like, I don't know. I have no idea what's going on here. It was all wrong. And so we had a human do it and you know what happened? She was like, I have no idea what he's saying. Really, it was just like, he is a mummy blurb, OK? And he was also like doing, you know what, Nadia's? It's like this. And yeah, yeah, he was doing an end trip during your firing, which was so annoying, by the way, and the nurse kept getting in the shot. But what if you turn that up too high, you just start it? Yeah, yeah. And I was like, Can we turn down the drugs because I try to have a conversation here? But my transcriptionists was from the Philippines was like, Y'all got to help me. I don't I have no idea what he was, so we would listen and we would go, did he say? And then one of us would get it and we go, Oh, now I can't unhear it. But it was really, really hard. So somewhere along the lines they're going to use, they're going to be like going for the ones that we marked as like the least accurate. And they're going to be like a ha. We should run this through the machine. I mean, it's only going to improve. I mean, the truth is like, you can probably do this right now, but in a year or two, be way more seamless. You could use deepfake with facial movement on top of vocal characteristics from his face, like around here and the words that were in clear make them clearer. That's true. Like, Hollywood's been doing this stuff for years, but like true, it takes a long time to do in your life to get a scene to open. All that stuff is coming to reality. I mean, I it with my dad. I tried to clone his voice right when this stuff started. I saw it from when I tried to wear when he passed, and I was like, what? Like, it went from zero to 100. So quick. All of it's growing. It's going to be really interesting when you can clone an actual personality by just taking. By that point, 10000 hours of Jordan Harbinger having conversations with somebody, you'd be able to get a reasonable approximation of what I would do or say in pretty much any situation. That's yeah, obviously. I mean, like one of the interesting things I would be interested, like you take all your podcast, all the questions you ask everything and you put it like you just even into GPT four and you say, like, what are the themes of this person's communication? I did that for some of my speech. It was absurdly accurate. We have a machine called DEXA, which is AI, and it indexes everything that I've ever said. I think like a Dexus game. Oh, sorry, no, it's an AI quote unquote machine that lives in the cloud. But in the next is everything on the Jordan Harbinger so people can play with that Jordan Harbinger.com/ A.I., you can say. Like, what would Jordan say is the best way to get a raise at work? So you don't have to find a clip in the show index? Is it? Or you don't have to find a clip in the show where I tell one person how to get a raise at work. I will just explain to you in text form how to get a raise at work using this machine. I mean, it's really cool. Those in one of my programs, we give people access to a basically a GPT for their own behavior. So you can ask itself, like how many times did I say the word? What so you said the word? What did it did? How many times did I use a vocal filler? What was my conversational balance? The crazy thing is when you have that like a search inventories or those search uses, it's like infinite where you could ask something, right? Like, it's so cool. There's a lot of I get queries back sometimes of what people have typed in some of. It's a little disturbing and scary because people are trying to get me to do something. I'm like, What is this person trying to get me to do? You see the query? Yeah, I can see like people trying to like as Jordan Arbiter ever said anything racist and it like stretched like joy. Luckily, the team is kind of on it, sort of like, can you just make it say no instead of like, well, he said a few questionable things and feedback. But they were jokes, folks. And it's like, Can we not do that? That's cool. But there's other stuff that people will ask that is really complicated. And I'm like, I don't know anything about that. It turns out the DEXA in I thinks that I do based on things that I've said over eight years or however long it's been. I own all my old intellectual property as well. I should literally just have them index all the bits because there's 11 years of stuff from other shows that I've done, especially if you include my live radio show, which is like two hours long. That's like spur of the moment kind of stuff. That's pretty cool. Yeah. I also just see like patterns in your own thing, like how often do you what's the average length? You know, all these just cool things. I should ask that like, I wonder if it can tell. I haven't tried this, but I wonder if I could say what percentage of each podcast hour does Jordan Harbinger do the talking? And it's like, well, 35 percent. Maybe that's too much. Maybe it's normal. How does that compare with the average of other podcasters? Maybe talk more. Maybe I talk less. I don't know. I'm curious. Jordan Harbinger.com/ A.I. is where people can play with that, though. Call it index is everything I want to go troll. You know, do it. Do it? Yeah, I mean, it's virtual me. So I won't really know until I look at the queries later, but go for it. Blake, thanks so much for finally finally coming on the show slash coming on the show again. I guess we did it 12 years ago, and I totally remember it. But but this this one was much better. Thanks for having me, man. You're about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show for our interview with Robert Green, one of the most acclaimed authors of our time. Robert's insight into human nature is second to none, and there's a reason that his books are banned in prisons yet widely read by both scholars and leaders alike. If we just sit in our inner tube with our hands behind our head and crack open a six pack of beer, the river of dark nature takes us towards that waterfall of the shadow. Yeah. So when we're children, if we weren't educated, if we didn't have teachers or parents telling us to study, we'd be these monsters. We're all flawed. I believe we humans naturally feel and it's the chimpanzee in us. It's been shown that primates are very attuned to other animals in their clan, and they're constantly comparing themselves your dislike of that fellow artists or that other podcaster. Ninety nine percent sure that it comes from a place of shame. You are not a rational be. Rationality is something you earn. It's a struggle. It takes effort. It takes awareness. We have to go through steps. We have to see your biases. When you think you're being rational, you're not being rational at all. You go around. Everything is personal. Oh, why did he say that? Why is my mom telling me this? And I'm telling you it's not personal? That's the liberating fact. People are wrapped up in their own emotions, their own traumas. So you need to be aware that people have their own inner reality. People are not nearly as happy and successful as you think. They are acknowledging that you have a dark side, that you have a shadow, that you're not such a great person as you think can actually be a very liberating feeling. And there are ways to take that shadow and that darkness and kind of turn it into something else. If you want to learn more about how to read others and even yourself, be sure to check out Episode 117 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. Love catching up with Blake really insightful. It's kind of nice to add a layer of real science over this whole body language thing. By the way, Blake's wife is an amazing sleep expert if anybody needs some sleep coaching. I am happy to refer you over to her and who doesn't want more Z's? All things Blake is will be in the show notes that Jordan Harbinger Dot.com Advertisers Deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com/ deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also, our newsletter Wee Bit Wiser A Little Gem From US to you every single week in under two minutes something that will have an immediate impact on your decisions, your psychology, your relationships. Jordan Harbinger.com/ news is where you can find it. Don't forget about six minute networking over its six minute networking icon. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. We're all the same people are and dwindling, but whatever. The show is created in association with PodcastOne, including Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others the fee for the show as you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. So if you know somebody who is interested in body language, artificial intelligence, human behavior, definitely share this episode with him. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by the Disorder podcast. I love that podcast name. I kind of wish I thought of. It doesn't fit my show well, actually fits my life, but it doesn't really fit my show. If you're someone who's intrigued by the complexities of global politics and the forces shaping our world, then you should download the Disorder podcast. It's a weekly podcast that explores global chaos and why countries struggle to collaborate effectively, but also offers insight into possible solutions. The disorder is meticulously structured to connect seemingly disparate issues like artificial intelligence, climate change, kleptocracy, neo populism showing how they all contribute to the current global instability. Jason Pack he's a senior analyst at Naito and a fan of the show, so he's a great taste in podcast. He ensures that each episode is rich with authoritative insights and informed analysis, and in one episode, they dove into the tragic murder of Alexei Navalny, who is a famous dissident in Russia. In case you were born under a rock, but it's not just a recap they brought in Bill Browder, who's been on our show twice. He knew Navalny personally. He's really been a thorn in Putin's side. There's a definite hit out for Bill Browder. Together, they explore Navalny's fearless pursuit of democracy. His strategy against corruption. And how the West has the power to challenge Putin effectively if we, you know, get our act together. So if you're looking to understand the intricate tapestry of global geopolitics and you want to get a handle on the complexities that define our times, download the disorder wherever you get your podcasts.

Past Episodes

The Jordan Harbinger Show
1115: Schizophrenic Spite Dims Golden Years' Light | Feedback Friday

What happens when your parents' peaceful retirement plan collides with a neighbor's deteriorating grip on reality? Find out here on Feedback Friday!

And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at friday@jordanharbinger.com. Now let's dive in!

On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss:

  • Your elderly parents bought their dream retirement home to be closer to their grandchild, but their next-door neighbor's increasingly erratic behavior has turned their golden years into a nightmare of harassment and intimidation. How do you protect your parents without making things worse?
  • You're in a prestigious high school choir group and your teacher is crossing boundaries — encouraging dating drama, trash-talking students, and making inappropriate requests. The situation keeps escalating, but you're worried about speaking up. What should you do?
  • After divorcing your unfaithful ex who subsequently made a string of chaotic life choices, you're faced with a moral dilemma about enforcing court-ordered child support payments that could leave her homeless. Is revenge worth the collateral damage?
  • You're trying to negotiate better pay for entry-level positions while juggling college, but employers seem resistant to standard negotiation tactics. Is there a secret playbook for when you're starting from zero?
  • Recommendation of the Week: The Fidelity Debit Card
  • You recently had a baby and got scammed by fake buyers who came to your home to "purchase" your photography equipment. Though you got an unexpected resolution, you're haunted by shame and self-doubt. Why do victims often blame themselves?
  • Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at friday@jordanharbinger.com!
  • Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.
  • Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi.

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1115

And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!

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The Jordan Harbinger Show
1114: Dr. Alok Kanojia | Breaking the Cycle of Digital Dependence

Psychiatrist Dr. Alok Kanojia discusses the hidden psychology of modern tech addiction and shares evidence-based strategies for breaking free!

What We Discuss with Dr. Alok Kanojia:

  • Digital addiction, particularly to pornography, has reached unprecedented levels (49-75% self-reported addiction rates), largely due to technology's ability to hijack multiple brain circuits simultaneously.
  • Trauma creates hypervigilance through the brain's survival mechanisms, which weigh negative experiences more heavily than positive ones. This explains why one bad experience can override many good ones.
  • Mental illness is increasing partly due to better diagnosis, but also because modern technology and social media distort our sense of self and relationship with reality, particularly through filtered images and curated content.
  • Traditional therapy approaches may not work for everyone, especially men, as the field has inherent biases toward verbal processing. Alternative approaches like exercise, body-focused work, or other methodologies can be equally effective.
  • You can rewire your brain and change who you are by first accepting your authentic self and desires, then building positive habits around them. Start by asking "Do I wish I were someone who wanted to change?" rather than forcing change through willpower alone. Small, consistent steps toward your genuine goals lead to lasting transformation.
  • And much more...

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1114

And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!

This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals

Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!

Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!

Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!



The Jordan Harbinger Show
1113: You Just Want to Hike, Not Revisit Third Reich | Feedback Friday

Your hiking group's newest member has killer calves and concerning ideologies. Should you hit the trail or fight for higher ground? Welcome to Feedback Friday!

And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at friday@jordanharbinger.com. Now let's dive in!

On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss:

  • You joined a hiking group after your divorce to focus on personal growth and make new friends. Everything was going great until a charismatic, physically impressive guy showed up spouting fascist ideologies and making disturbing comments about weaponizing drones. The worst part? Everyone else seems captivated by him. What's your next move when you're the only one seeing red flags?
  • Living 14 hours from family in a foreign country, you're struggling with your husband's ongoing pattern of deception, from emotional affairs to secret drinking while on antidepressants. With a six-year-old daughter and limited professional options, you're torn between love, fear, and dignity. How do you find your way through this maze of betrayal when you have no support system?
  • You're a single woman implementing networking strategies in the conservative South, but there's an unexpected cultural hurdle: people find it "suspicious" when unmarried women contact married men professionally. How do you build crucial business relationships without triggering social landmines?
  • Something's fishy in your California condo complex: managers seemingly getting paid under the table, maintenance staff double-dipping, and board members possibly involved in the scheme. You suspect corruption but fear retaliation. How do you expose potential fraud without becoming a target?
  • Recommendation of the Week: Blue-Light-Blocking Book Light
  • Your adventurous friend just booked a trip to Afghanistan, brushing off your concerns about the risks to foreign women travelers. Despite your attempts to share information about the dangers, she won't even listen to relevant podcast episodes. How do you protect someone determined to venture into a geopolitical hornets' nest without proper preparation?
  • Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at friday@jordanharbinger.com!
  • Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.
  • Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi.

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1113

And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!

This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals

Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!

Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!

Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!



The Jordan Harbinger Show
1112: Jay Dobyns | Undercover with the Hells Angels Part Two

How did former ATF agent Jay Dobyns spend years undercover with the Hells Angels and live to tell the tale? Listen to this two-parter to find out! [Pt. 2/2 — find Pt. 1/2 here!]

What We Discuss with Jay Dobyns:

  • The Hells Angels maintain an extensive rulebook that governs members' behavior, with strict hierarchies and protocols. Breaking these rules can result in severe consequences, demonstrating how the organization operates more like a structured criminal enterprise than just a motorcycle club.
  • Many Hells Angels members live in stark contrast to the glamorized Hollywood image of biker gangs. While some members are affluent, others live in extreme poverty, and children in these environments often face severely challenging circumstances.
  • Undercover agents cannot use drugs or engage in certain criminal activities — even if it would make their cover more convincing — as this would compromise their credibility as witnesses and violate laws they're meant to uphold.
  • The emotional toll of undercover work had a severe impact on Jay's family life. His son would give him rocks as protection talismans, revealing how even young children understand the dangers their undercover parent faces.
  • Successfully compartmentalizing undercover work from personal life is a crucial skill that requires conscious effort and practice. This can be developed by implementing clear boundaries, as Jay's wife suggested with the "dimmer switch" concept — learning to dial down the intensity when returning home and being present with family.
  • This is the second half of a two-part episode. Find part one here!

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1112

And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!

This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals

Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!

Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!

Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!



The Jordan Harbinger Show
1111: Jay Dobyns | Undercover with the Hells Angels Part One

How did former ATF agent Jay Dobyns spend years undercover with the Hells Angels and live to tell the tale? Listen to this two-parter to find out! [Pt. 1/2]

What We Discuss with Jay Dobyns:

  • Jay Dobyns was shot and nearly killed just four days into his ATF career, but rather than quitting, he used this experience to build credibility and learn valuable lessons about how quickly situations can turn violent in law enforcement.
  • The ATF's undercover program was considered elite among law enforcement agencies, with ATF agents being particularly skilled at getting "down in the weeds" of criminal investigations due to their backgrounds in local law enforcement rather than specialized fields.
  • Jay explains that successful undercover work is like being a salesman where "the product is me" — it requires building genuine trust and relationships while knowing you'll eventually have to betray that trust, making it psychologically challenging work.
  • To establish credibility in criminal circles, Jay and his team would create elaborate "street theater" — staged criminal scenarios with other undercover agents that allowed suspects to witness what appeared to be real criminal activity rather than just hearing stories about it.
  • Here, we learn how complex and sophisticated undercover work can be, highlighting valuable lessons about building trust and credibility through actions rather than words — and there's much more to come in part two later this week!
  • And much more — be sure to hear the second half of this conversation here later this week!

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1111

And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!

This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals

Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!

Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!

Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!



The Jordan Harbinger Show
1110: Can True Love Last In Shadow of Dad's Dark Past? | Feedback Friday

Finding love in midlife with a baby on the way seems like a miracle, but your father's dark past threatens to eclipse it all. It's Feedback Friday!

And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at friday@jordanharbinger.com. Now let's dive in!

On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss:

  • You've found true love in midlife and have been blessed with a baby on the way, but there's a dark family secret lurking in the shadows ? your father's abuse of your sisters decades ago. Now you're torn between protecting their story and being honest with your partner. Can you find safe passage through this minefield of trust and trauma?
  • You're the new kid at a utility company where everyone's old enough to remember the Carter administration. They call you "little boy" and move at glacial speed, but the pension is golden. How do you bridge this generational grand canyon without losing your sanity?
  • Two passionate readers weigh in on AI with opposing views ? one concerned about the environmental impact of our chatty digital friends, another warning about cognitive dependence. Join this fascinating debate about the true cost of convenience.
  • You're in love with someone half your age, you're both on the autism spectrum, but her mother's controlling behavior feels straight out of a Gothic novel ? 8 p.m. curfews and confiscated phones included. Did we mention you're married? Oh, boy, how does this tale unfold?
  • Recommendation of the Week: Chia Seed Pudding 
  • Your corporate IT job pays the bills but feeds your soul about as well as a cardboard sandwich. At 35, with a family to support, you're wondering if it's too late to chase meaningful work. Is stability worth the daily dose of misery?
  • Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at friday@jordanharbinger.com!
  • Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.
  • Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi.

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1110

And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here ? even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!

This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals

Sign up for Six-Minute Networking ? our free networking and relationship development mini course ? at jordanharbinger.com/course!

Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!

Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!



The Jordan Harbinger Show
1109: Michael Israetel | Fitness Myths and Science-Based Solutions

Is diet soda bad? Do muscles vanish when you stop lifting? Dr. Michael Israetel, bodybuilding professor and fitness expert, answers these questions and more!

What We Discuss with Michael Israetel:

  • Common beliefs about artificial sweeteners and diet sodas being inherently harmful are largely unfounded. According to Dr. Israetel, there's no scientific evidence supporting that diet sodas are bad for health when examining both empirical literature and mechanistic studies.
  • Muscle dysmorphia in men is a real issue, though not as prevalent as body image issues in women. It can lead to unhealthy obsessions with appearance and potentially dangerous behaviors, especially when combined with social media pressure and unrealistic comparisons.
  • "Muscle memory" is a real physiological phenomenon based on satellite cell nuclei that remain in muscle tissue even after losing muscle mass. These nuclei never leave once created, making it easier to regain lost muscle even years later.
  • You can't outrun a poor diet with exercise — the body is extremely efficient at conserving energy, making it much harder to burn off excess calories through exercise than it is to simply not consume them in the first place.
  • The key to sustainable fitness is implementing "cleanup phases" rather than extreme dieting. You can maintain a healthy weight by following normal, balanced eating habits most of the time, then doing 3-4 week periods of stricter eating when needed to reset. This approach allows you to enjoy life while staying fit, rather than constantly restricting yourself.
  • And much more...

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1109

And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!

This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals

Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!

Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!

Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!



The Jordan Harbinger Show
1108: Sound Healing | Skeptical Sunday

Are sound healers hitting the right note, or just making noise? Maddox joins us to investigate frequencies, facts, and fallacies on this Skeptical Sunday!

Welcome to Skeptical Sunday, a special edition of The Jordan Harbinger Show where Jordan and a guest break down a topic that you may have never thought about, open things up, and debunk common misconceptions. This time around, we’re joined by Maddox, the blogger behind The Best Page in the Universe and bestselling author of The Alphabet Of Manliness, I Am Better Than Your Kids, and F*ck Whales: Also Families, Poetry, Folksy Wisdom and You!

On This Week's Skeptical Sunday:

  • Sound healing's purported benefits lack strong scientific evidence. While some studies show modest stress reduction benefits from sound meditation, claims about treating serious medical conditions are unfounded.
  • Sound and vibration can actually cause physical harm. Research has documented damage to nerves, circulation, and other systems from certain frequencies and prolonged exposure.
  • Many sound healing practitioners mix legitimate scientific concepts with pseudoscientific claims, often misquoting scientists like Einstein and making unsubstantiated statements about quantum physics and cellular vibrations.
  • The lack of regulation in sound healing is concerning, particularly given potential risks to vulnerable populations like pregnant women and children. The FDA only provides general guidance on "complementary and alternative medicine."
  • Sound healing can be beneficial when used appropriately as a relaxation tool. Research shows it may help reduce stress and anxiety when combined with meditation. Those interested can try sound meditation classes or sound baths, while maintaining realistic expectations about benefits and continuing any prescribed medical treatments.
  • Connect with Jordan on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. If you have something you'd like us to tackle here on Skeptical Sunday, drop Jordan a line at jordan@jordanharbinger.com and let him know!
  • Connect with Maddox at The Best Page in the Universe and pick up one of his books!

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1108

And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!

This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals

Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!

Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!

Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!



The Jordan Harbinger Show
1107: Ballet Date with a Geopolitical Incel Mate | Feedback Friday

Your fascist colleague thinks clubs turn people gay but loves male ballet dancers. Sometimes the closet has geopolitical dimensions. It's Feedback Friday!

And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at friday@jordanharbinger.com. Now let's dive in!

On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss:

  • You're a PhD student who befriended a peculiar new colleague with a penchant for authoritarianism, homophobia, and ballet. He's confiding increasingly concerning political views, showing up in clouds of cologne, and taking you on what might be accidental dates. Can you guide him toward compassionate self-acceptance, or is this a lost cause?
  • Your neighbors are living like chaos incarnate — their yard's a tribute to entropy, their unmuffled car sounds like a dragon with indigestion, and there might be a whole rat civilization developing under their porch. The police can't help, and your three-year-old keeps getting woken up. What's your next move?
  • 20 years ago, your alcoholic father's infidelity led to your mother's tragic end. Now he's remarried to someone younger than you, and you're caught in an exhausting cycle of guilt, obligation, and resentment. Is it time to break free from this emotional tornado?
  • Recommendation of the Week: Mixbook
  • You're a teenage tech prodigy who landed a dream gig with a Forbes 30-Under-30 founder and a popular YouTuber. But four months after delivering stellar work, they've gone radio silent. The prototype's gathering dust, meetings keep getting canceled, and your professional relationships are hanging in the balance. How do you light a fire under success?
  • Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at friday@jordanharbinger.com!
  • Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.
  • Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi.

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1107

And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!

This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals

Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!

Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!

Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!



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The Jordan Harbinger Show
1116: Fake Foods | Skeptical Sunday

From food deserts to ultra-processed flavor deception, Jessica Wynn maps out America's nutritional divide and corporate food games on Skeptical Sunday!

Welcome to Skeptical Sunday, a special edition of The Jordan Harbinger Show where Jordan and a guest break down a topic that you may have never thought about, open things up, and debunk common misconceptions. This time around, we’re joined by Jessica Wynn!

On This Week's Skeptical Sunday, We Discuss:

  • Imagine your body as an ancient supercomputer, humming along with software that's been fine-tuned over millions of years. Then suddenly, ultra-processed foods show up like a sketchy software update, introducing code your system never evolved to handle. The result? Your internal operating system goes haywire, consuming 500 extra calories daily even when the nutritional "specs" look identical on paper.
  • Remember that Italian restaurant scene in Goodfellas? Well, the real food mafia (yes, the actual "Agromafia") is less about fancy dinners and more about fancy fraud. They're orchestrating a culinary shell game where your exotic $35 "Chilean Sea Bass" is actually $7 Costco tilapia in disguise, and your "extra virgin" olive oil might have a considerably less virtuous past.
  • That plant-based burger patty might be wearing a hemp necklace and preaching about sustainability, but underneath its eco-friendly costume lurks an ultra-processed food wolf in sheep's clothing. It's the dietary equivalent of greenwashing — solving one problem while potentially creating a lab full of new ones.
  • Picture 40 million Americans living in food deserts — urban landscapes where fresh produce is as rare as a unicorn sighting. These nutritional wastelands force folks to survive on a diet of convenience store cuisine, creating a tragic cycle where the most affordable food options are often the ones most likely to compromise health. It's a modern-day dietary dystopia.
  • Here's the silver lining, food adventurers! Think of your grocery store as a game board: The real treasures are hidden along the perimeter — that's where the fresh produce, meats, and dairy hang out like nutritional VIPs. Stick to the edges, and you'll dodge the ultra-processed center like a dietary ninja. Want to level up? Grind your own coffee beans, befriend your local farmers market vendors, and remember: every whole food purchase is a vote for a healthier food system.
  • Connect with Jordan on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. If you have something you'd like us to tackle here on Skeptical Sunday, drop Jordan a line at jordan@jordanharbinger.com and let him know!
  • Connect with Jessica Wynn at Instagram and Threads, and subscribe to her newsletter: Between the Lines!

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1116

And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!

This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals

Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!

Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!

Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!



The Jordan Harbinger Show
1115: Schizophrenic Spite Dims Golden Years' Light | Feedback Friday

What happens when your parents' peaceful retirement plan collides with a neighbor's deteriorating grip on reality? Find out here on Feedback Friday!

And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at friday@jordanharbinger.com. Now let's dive in!

On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss:

  • Your elderly parents bought their dream retirement home to be closer to their grandchild, but their next-door neighbor's increasingly erratic behavior has turned their golden years into a nightmare of harassment and intimidation. How do you protect your parents without making things worse?
  • You're in a prestigious high school choir group and your teacher is crossing boundaries — encouraging dating drama, trash-talking students, and making inappropriate requests. The situation keeps escalating, but you're worried about speaking up. What should you do?
  • After divorcing your unfaithful ex who subsequently made a string of chaotic life choices, you're faced with a moral dilemma about enforcing court-ordered child support payments that could leave her homeless. Is revenge worth the collateral damage?
  • You're trying to negotiate better pay for entry-level positions while juggling college, but employers seem resistant to standard negotiation tactics. Is there a secret playbook for when you're starting from zero?
  • Recommendation of the Week: The Fidelity Debit Card
  • You recently had a baby and got scammed by fake buyers who came to your home to "purchase" your photography equipment. Though you got an unexpected resolution, you're haunted by shame and self-doubt. Why do victims often blame themselves?
  • Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at friday@jordanharbinger.com!
  • Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.
  • Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi.

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1115

And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!

This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals

Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!

Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!

Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!



The Jordan Harbinger Show
1114: Dr. Alok Kanojia | Breaking the Cycle of Digital Dependence

Psychiatrist Dr. Alok Kanojia discusses the hidden psychology of modern tech addiction and shares evidence-based strategies for breaking free!

What We Discuss with Dr. Alok Kanojia:

  • Digital addiction, particularly to pornography, has reached unprecedented levels (49-75% self-reported addiction rates), largely due to technology's ability to hijack multiple brain circuits simultaneously.
  • Trauma creates hypervigilance through the brain's survival mechanisms, which weigh negative experiences more heavily than positive ones. This explains why one bad experience can override many good ones.
  • Mental illness is increasing partly due to better diagnosis, but also because modern technology and social media distort our sense of self and relationship with reality, particularly through filtered images and curated content.
  • Traditional therapy approaches may not work for everyone, especially men, as the field has inherent biases toward verbal processing. Alternative approaches like exercise, body-focused work, or other methodologies can be equally effective.
  • You can rewire your brain and change who you are by first accepting your authentic self and desires, then building positive habits around them. Start by asking "Do I wish I were someone who wanted to change?" rather than forcing change through willpower alone. Small, consistent steps toward your genuine goals lead to lasting transformation.
  • And much more...

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1114

And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!

This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals

Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!

Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!

Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!



The Jordan Harbinger Show
1113: You Just Want to Hike, Not Revisit Third Reich | Feedback Friday

Your hiking group's newest member has killer calves and concerning ideologies. Should you hit the trail or fight for higher ground? Welcome to Feedback Friday!

And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at friday@jordanharbinger.com. Now let's dive in!

On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss:

  • You joined a hiking group after your divorce to focus on personal growth and make new friends. Everything was going great until a charismatic, physically impressive guy showed up spouting fascist ideologies and making disturbing comments about weaponizing drones. The worst part? Everyone else seems captivated by him. What's your next move when you're the only one seeing red flags?
  • Living 14 hours from family in a foreign country, you're struggling with your husband's ongoing pattern of deception, from emotional affairs to secret drinking while on antidepressants. With a six-year-old daughter and limited professional options, you're torn between love, fear, and dignity. How do you find your way through this maze of betrayal when you have no support system?
  • You're a single woman implementing networking strategies in the conservative South, but there's an unexpected cultural hurdle: people find it "suspicious" when unmarried women contact married men professionally. How do you build crucial business relationships without triggering social landmines?
  • Something's fishy in your California condo complex: managers seemingly getting paid under the table, maintenance staff double-dipping, and board members possibly involved in the scheme. You suspect corruption but fear retaliation. How do you expose potential fraud without becoming a target?
  • Recommendation of the Week: Blue-Light-Blocking Book Light
  • Your adventurous friend just booked a trip to Afghanistan, brushing off your concerns about the risks to foreign women travelers. Despite your attempts to share information about the dangers, she won't even listen to relevant podcast episodes. How do you protect someone determined to venture into a geopolitical hornets' nest without proper preparation?
  • Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at friday@jordanharbinger.com!
  • Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.
  • Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi.

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1113

And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!

This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals

Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!

Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!

Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!



The Jordan Harbinger Show
1112: Jay Dobyns | Undercover with the Hells Angels Part Two

How did former ATF agent Jay Dobyns spend years undercover with the Hells Angels and live to tell the tale? Listen to this two-parter to find out! [Pt. 2/2 — find Pt. 1/2 here!]

What We Discuss with Jay Dobyns:

  • The Hells Angels maintain an extensive rulebook that governs members' behavior, with strict hierarchies and protocols. Breaking these rules can result in severe consequences, demonstrating how the organization operates more like a structured criminal enterprise than just a motorcycle club.
  • Many Hells Angels members live in stark contrast to the glamorized Hollywood image of biker gangs. While some members are affluent, others live in extreme poverty, and children in these environments often face severely challenging circumstances.
  • Undercover agents cannot use drugs or engage in certain criminal activities — even if it would make their cover more convincing — as this would compromise their credibility as witnesses and violate laws they're meant to uphold.
  • The emotional toll of undercover work had a severe impact on Jay's family life. His son would give him rocks as protection talismans, revealing how even young children understand the dangers their undercover parent faces.
  • Successfully compartmentalizing undercover work from personal life is a crucial skill that requires conscious effort and practice. This can be developed by implementing clear boundaries, as Jay's wife suggested with the "dimmer switch" concept — learning to dial down the intensity when returning home and being present with family.
  • This is the second half of a two-part episode. Find part one here!

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1112

And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!

This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals

Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!

Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!

Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!



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