B.E.E. - Moby - 9/12/16

Transcript

This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the James Altucher show on the Stansbury Radio Network. So I have Neil Strauss on the phone with me. Neil, how's it going? Good, man. Good to talk to you. Neil, I really appreciate this because I know, actually, you have absolutely nothing to promote right now. Like, a lot of my guests, they come on. They have, like, their latest book or whatever to promote, but I really appreciate you coming on and and joining the show. No. I just wanna do it for fun, and, you know, I love what you do and the way you do it. So so this conversation feels overdue. And and for peep yeah. Exactly. I feel like we should have already spoken, but just so people know, this is our first conversation. Yeah. Yeah. I but I I had a feeling it's not the last. We've been texting frantically at odd hours. Right. Right. So so, many people know you, but for those who don't, you wrote you've written many best selling books. I believe it was around 7 New York Times best selling books. And the most popular that I'm sure everyone has either heard of or read was called The Game and, which is about kind of the pickup artist or seduction scene or that subculture that you sort of immersed yourself in for a while. And, of course, my personal favorite, which was the most useful to me is, make love like a porn star. So Yes. Yes. I'm I'm I'm sure that provided plenty plenty of tips. Yes. Exactly. Very helpful. But, you know, what I what I don't wanna ask you the typical thing about the game because I've seen you in a bunch of interviews, and everybody just says, what are the tips to pick up other people? So I encourage all all the listeners to read the game because, by the way, it was a a really well written book, fascinating, and or or watch all of your interviews, where you repeatedly Say this. Yeah. Exactly. You don't quite say the same thing. Like, I really appreciate it. Like, my wife and I both watched how you talked to Jessica Alba and, like, on the Jimmy Kimmel Show and and also what what you did with The View. And, like, you could you can really analyze every second of it to see what you're doing to get Jessica Alba interested in you. It it's an it was an amazing moment. Like and I and it's because I guess, go ahead and watch it. I wanna explain the whole blow by blow, but they switched my data and Jimmy Kimmel at the last minute. I said ahead of time, I said, who's the other guest? And they said, Jessica Alba. I'm like, oh, I know what's gonna happen. They're gonna ask me to pick up Jessica Alba, so I kinda prepped exactly what I used to say when I was doing the game in advance. And so I kinda said the thing I said, and then there was a moment where I knew she could either go with it or not go with it. And by the way, you always have a contingency plan in case someone doesn't go with it, especially when you're when you're at live TV in front of millions of people. So, the thing she she went with, there's a magical moment. You see the whole her whole body language change and everything. Yeah. It's almost as if you took her out of the show, and she's just talking to you. It was great. Yeah. It was it was it was it was wild. And, and and and, funnily enough, by the way, you're talking about this stuff, and and I think it's okay to say this, that I actually got a call a a few years ago from a government intelligence agency that requires its field agents to use the book to read the book. And I went, like, to a secret location that I'm not allowed to disclose and, like, train them. And and the stuff that these, you know, pimply teenage kids or, you know, young kids at the you know, people I was running around with to to the game doing what they were doing was more sophisticated than what what this government intelligence agency was doing. Wow. That's so fascinating because as I was reading the book, so I deal with a lot of business and entrepreneurial stuff. And as I was reading the book, I'm thinking, boy, this would be great. He's using very standard copywriting techniques, but for, you know, picking up girls in bars. And Yeah. You know, and how this was this is incredibly useful for business and for copywriting. I mean, you you you take advantage of scarcity, negativity bias. You answer all objections. Like, it's straight out of Robert Cialdini's influence. And and and and so much more. Like, when you were into this and it's funny too. I've had, you know who Dan Kanak? Of course. You know who Dan Kanak is. He he wrote a letter and said it was one of the best sale best the best salesman he'd ever read, which is a high compliment because he's a That's a very high compliment. He's the bible on copywriting. Yeah. And but but here's, here's what's interesting is we also because we were so obsessed with, you know, with with with that with that singular task of the game, we actually would read books on everything for it to influence what we were doing. So I remember, like, one tip came from a real estate book, and it said whenever you're there were 2 tips that actually came from a real estate book. One was once you make the sale and you sell a house, if you just say, hey. Thanks. Pleasure doing business with you. I'm glad you're gonna buy it. And then you leave, later they're gonna get buyer's remorse and feel like your whole relationship was just about the sale and then canceled. So it was important after you made the sale to continue talking to that person and make sure they know it was out of personal friendship and connection, not about the close. So we realized that when you are out there and you maybe get somebody's phone number, it's the same thing. You don't get the phone number and you run away. You actually continue talking and make sure it's about the relationship and the connection. Otherwise, it can be like this person talked to me for 20 minutes, half an hour, pretending to connect, that they just wanted my phone number and not call you back. So all these things, it was just fascinating. The the amount of depth and breadth of information we we obsessively studied for that. Well well, it's interesting because so, like, a real estate transaction or let's say, any sort of big, like, $1,000,000 transact any high stakes transaction is gonna use the same properties. And part of that is people don't just wanna sell you a $1,000,000 product. People want a friend. Even in a even in a $1,000,000 transaction, people want a friend. And that's what you kind of are teaching here in this book. Yeah. A a friend and also not yeah. Someone and also just trust. They want they wanna trust somebody because, again, you can people go with it and close a deal with a lower bid because they trust that person. They trust the person who's gonna follow through and sign the paperwork and not give them grief. So a lot of it's about, rapport, you know, trust and rapport and connection. You know, I I know I said I didn't wanna ask about the technique, so I'm not gonna ask you about the technique. We we've already went down the rabbit hole, but yeah. But I know. I don't wanna I I I I'm not gonna ask you to, like, pick me up or anything. Unless unless that's a great technique because I'll do that. Like, if I'm interviewing someone for Rolling Stone, for example, and I and I know I need to ask about some huge scandal that's been all over the news they don't wanna talk about, instead of asking them head on, I'll ask them obliquely and say, you know, aren't you so tired of people asking so many questions about that scandal? And then you get into it in a way that paces their reality. So maybe you were sophisticatedly doing that with me. Yes. And the sad thing is I learned that technique from you from another interview you did. But That's awesome. So but, you know, so so you wrote this book, and then did you know beforehand this is gonna be a huge hit, or did your life just, like, completely change once the book hit? No. I I had I had no idea. And I think it's true of, like, so many other people I know that in retrospect, things always look, you know, perfectly planned and marketed, but it was, you know, completely accidental because the books I've written before with with these huge rock bands and other celebrities, I knew they were gonna sell well because they were just so famous. They could have, like, you know, urinated on paper and sold it. So so, yeah, so I really had this image before of just, you know, nobody being at the book signing and and, you know, some old lady feeling bad for me and buying one for her grandson or something like that. So I had no idea. And then the and, god, this shows how old it was. The date when it came out, hurricane Katrina hit as I was flying to New York to do all the media and everything. So nothing happened in the in the media, you know, all the things that that that were set up. There was there it was you know, America's in the midst of this horrible tragedy. And so so, so I'm just like, alright. Maybe, you know yeah. So so but somehow it still happened. It did it hit number 1, like, right away and, like, bam? Yeah. Yeah. It did. It did it did it. It's like it hit number 6 or something, but, if that week. But, but, yeah, when it went right there, I I honestly have no idea how. I really don't. You know you know what I think part of it is? And I I think this is the difference between your books and the the I would say there's a class of, like, literary nonfiction dating back from Hunter s Thompson where the writer puts himself as a character in the story. Because nonfiction still has to be about storytelling, but bad nonfiction is not about storytelling. It's more about, let's call it, technique. Like, let's say someone writes a book, how to be a leader. They don't actually tell stories. They just tell techniques. But you put yourself in the story and actually are, you don't even give all the techniques, but you really immerse yourself in the story. In fact, I and I always make the decision. It's the hardest decision to make, which is that if there's sort of a technique or an idea that's important to me, but it slows down the story, I take it out. And it's painful to do. I did it in the most recent book that I just finished. I did it in the in the in the game, and and, and everything has to serve the story. And sometimes you take out something you just know you wanna share or so important, but you need to let it go. Like, what's something that you took out here? Like, you don't have to say the technique, like, roughly. Sure. I yeah. So so so so the book I'm doing and if the game was about how to maybe meet women, this is about how to stop meeting members of the opposite sex and be in a relationship. So there's a lot of real sophisticated, stuff on why we choose the partners we choose. And, again, it's all that's in there, but it gets more sophisticated in terms of what what needs did your parents meet, what needs didn't they meet, and then you sometimes will choose a partner who is like the parent looking to get the need met that the parent never filled. So for me, I'll give you the context. You're saying is girls marry their fathers and and boys marry their mothers. No. More no. It's deeper than that. Okay. Tell lay it out there. Which is this. It's it's think it's more like this. What did you not get from your parent? I'll just ask you. I'll tell you what. Let's let your listeners know you. Okay? Okay. So here's the question. What did you growing up, you're 12 or 8, choose whatever age you go back to, what did you not get from your parents that you that you needed? Uh-huh. Go ahead. I didn't get physical affection. And but I think that was common for suburban middle class Jewish kids because the focus was on education and and monetary success and not so much on, like, hugging and let's go to the ballgame sort of thing. Great. And and by the way, here's what I love. Right? So we're already in it. So listen. So so right away, I love how you say it, and then what you do is there's a common defense technique called globalization. Right? Okay. You take some of the Right. I wanted I wanted to apply it to everyone else. You apply it to everyone else when and then what it does is it distracts from that that say, in therapy or something, someone will do that because it takes away from their own pain. But you know what? Who cares what everyone else did or didn't do? All that matters is you and how it affected you. But I love how you went there, and you went to defend them, and you used that instant technique. So that's globalization. So the point is by the way, you know who else says that exact same thing that you said? Who? Who I've interviewed who says the exact same thing? Hugh Hefner. Really? That's sassy. So his so his part of his theory about himself, I think it's only part of the story. I mean, I know it's only part of the story as far as I'm, concerned. But part of it is that, you know, he do he his mom was always distant. He never got that female, you know, affection and touch. And now, obviously, he gets as much of it as he can for 78 years or whatever it's been. And and so and then when you, gosh. I don't know your personal life. You're you're married. Right? Yes. Cool. For how long? I've been married since 2010. I'm almost at my 5 year anniversary. Great. And is she is she physically affectionate or not? Oh, yeah. Yeah. No. She's great. Great. So so you so you feel like what you needed was physical affection and then you went then and then now your your, partner is very physically affectionate? Yeah. And, you know, the thing is though, I got married at the this is my second wife. I got married to her at the age of, whatever it was. Let's go with the first one. First one was the opposite. Yeah. Exactly. That's what I'm thinking. Usually usually learn. So the first one, like, you and then I'm gonna go off on a I'm just gonna go off on a limb, but you can just correct it where it's right and wrong. But usually that with the first one, she is more physically distant from your mom, but you feel like, hey. If I can get a physical affection from her, then I'm healing that childhood wound that I had. And then what happens either is she doesn't get it and you get and, again, there are I'm sure there are many other things going on in the relationship besides that. I think also there are many other things going on in your childhood besides that. But going off this one point is either and you can tell me if I'm right or wrong. And this day, it's more a question disguised as a statement, which is that either she was physically affect okay. Yeah. She was just physically distant. You thought, hey. If I can get that, now I'll heal that wound. And then either hey. Wait. Let me hold on one second. I'll make the point. I wanna hear I wanna hear it. Even I'm way wrong. I just wanna hear it. Then someone else can extrapolate to them. So either what happens is, a, you don't get it. You get frustrated, and that leads to to tension and a power struggle. Or, b, you get it, and it's so unfamiliar you just don't know what to do with it and can't handle it. So go ahead. What have what were you about to say? So so so I'm wondering that sounds great as a theory, and that matches the the whole situation. But, how do you how do you know that's not just a theory? Like, I could I could extrapolate also, from from hearing about different relationships. I could maybe make that theory. But, how how did you get beyond that to find that that was, okay, probably happening in many relationships? I I guess my answer is, like, I don't actually care in this sense. All I care is that it's true for me. And then I'll write about if it's true for other people. Cool. If it's not, not. Because here's the thing. It's all just a freaking theory. Right. Everything is just a theory and everything proven I mean, look at the whole, like, kind of bio hacking health movement. One day, it's raw food. The day, no. You got a boil your kale now. You can't eat raw kale. Like, it's all just theories, and they change all the freaking time. And often the researcher with the loudest voice wins. And in fact, if you wanna go off research, your research has proven that research is wrong because there's so much confirmation bias, there's publication bias, there's all kinds of crazy things going on, and anything. So so, I mean, there's so there there is this whole and I love there's this whole kind of TED Talk culture we're in now where someone says I'm a scientist or they have a doctor for their name or they use the word research, but then we must automatically accept it. However, my thought is I just use what works for me. And, hey, if it's, you know, if it's 75% true, it's it's better than than most other things. So the answer is the burden is not to prove it. The burden just doesn't work for me and make my life better. You know, it's funny you say that because, a, it sort of confirms my belief that, it's the story that's important as opposed to the technique. And so and so, obviously, obviously, you wanna be not just entertaining, but educational because it's nonfiction, but the story is is drastically important for the readability. Yeah. Exactly. And and to me, unless I guess here's here's what I kind here's what I kinda do is or at least in some of my books, which is there's a problem in my life, and I'm having a problem with like, again, relationships were, like, beyond a problem. I was so bad at them. I was I could get in too easily, but I was really bad at being in them, and I was even worse breaking up. So the breakup would be as long as the relationship half the time. So so I'll find a problem, and then I'll then I'll think then I'll just try to solve it and just actually dedicate my I can I have the luxury of saying, hey? If there's a problem I'm solving, I can just make that my next book. I can dedicate, make it a full time job to solve it, and then I'll solve it for myself. Problems are always content. Yeah. And I'll and, again, I'll try everything, and I'll share it. And if it works for other people who are like me, great. If it doesn't, that's not great. I actually have a theory that most people's audience you know, you write something. Right? James, you write something, and then you share it, and a bunch of people, connect with you and you think, oh, it must be true because look at all the people who connect with it. But often, I think we're just connecting with people who have similar patterns, similar, childhoods as us. I know I'm deep going deep on childhood, but here, let me give you an example. So I'm sitting with Robert Green. He'll probably kill me for the saying this, but whatever. No one's gonna listen to this. Right? No. No. A 100000 people are gonna listen to this. Great. Good. Okay. So it's just between us and And by the way, Robert Green's been on the podcast. Smartest guy on the planet. Yeah. Love Robert Green. And so Robert Green's saying, you know, I I have I I'll tell you what. He so here's what's interesting. Him and I both had, like, the same kinda, like, mother, which was sort of a very narcissistic mother. Right? So what happens here is The Art of Seduction. I write the game. I talked to, like, 4 other people who write read other books like that. We all have the same kind of, you know, kinda narcissistic mother who, you know, what's the word for? Like, engulfed us. Right? So what happens is then you write these books often about, say, power this this kind of power struggle or having power over the opposite sex or something like that that and then everyone likes and think this is what guys need or they like, but then you realize, no. I'll I'll go to my seminars. I'll ask them about the way they were raised, and a lot had the same kind of parental cost constellation as me. So the point I'm trying to make is this. And, again, it's just an unproven theory that I have no basis for other than my own experience, which is I often find if you go deep, you'll find that a lot of your audience may have had the same, you know, key upbringing elements that formed, you know, who they were. You know, I guess if this is related to the game also, which is that here you had somebody who who exerted massive power over you, a a female figure who exerted massive power over you as a child. And so you then tried to reclaim that power by essentially joining this pickup scene, which is all about, kind of these, you know, tech techniques or cognitive biases that have power in that scene. Right. Which is, like, I won't be my mom's victim again, which is total nonsense that I actually believed at the time, which is why it's important to know who you are and how you're raised and what your beliefs are so you know the choices you're making are, you know, healthy or unhealthy. So I totally agree. I think that, yeah, that's exactly the point. Well, you know, you bring up an interesting point in one of your most recent, posts or or letters that I got from you, which is that, on one end of the scale, you can remember all these techniques, for, you know, either controlling a situation or pickup or whatever, or you can really learn deep down, like, what's inside yourself and just rely on that, and that's probably just as successful. Yeah. Exactly. Exact yeah. The yeah. The point yeah. Exactly. The point the point of that was a lot of people try to change their behaviors, and that's easy to change your behaviors. But if you don't change your sort of beliefs, whatever it is that motivated the behavior will find another way to to kinda come out sideways. So working on your beliefs, you know, are really tough. It's tough to recognize them. It's tough to change them. But once you change or alter them and, again, we all walk around with these beliefs. You know, I'm not an every actor so many actors I know. Right? And I'm I'm in LA, so it's the it's the capital of, you know, kids who felt they didn't get enough attention and now want the attention of the world to fill that hole. So, you know, so what about, you know, you if you just feel like I'm enough as I am without needing anybody's attention, you can actually walk the world as a complete person and then maybe become a great artist instead of a tensioner. It's interesting because you you do say, you know, that the book opened you up to to self improvement, but it also opened you up to spirituality. Like, how do you define spirituality in this context? I mean, I think spirituality is just whatever system you believe yourself to be a part of, you know, outside your your body. So whatever way you feel you fit into the into the world and the universe is your spirituality, whether you believe that's just that all things are connected. You know? Right. Even scientifically, one can believe yeah. It's the force or just you can scientifically believe everything's atoms, and they're all touching and vibrating, so we're all connected. Or you can can be a, you know, a higher power or a god or it could just be it's all meaningless and nothing matters. That that's whatever that is, that that's what I see as your spirituality. It's just your your the way you feel like your the system of your body fits into the system of the universe. But, you know, even that feeling of, like, let's say let's say the it kinda gives to this this feeling of nothing matters, and that actually helps in lots of situations. Then you don't have to be as concerned what people think about you, for instance, which is a huge, battle on both business or seduction or whatever, negotiation, everything. Yeah. And and and I is that your philosophy? No. I I kind of, I I'm a big believer that people should be grateful all the time because that key that that you can't be grateful and regretful or anxious at the same time. So anytime I feel like I'm anxious, I try to notice that and replace it with feelings of gratitude. And that keeps me present in the now, and it also prevents me from giving a s**t what other people think of me. Interesting. Interesting. Cool. Because if I'm grateful for everything in my life, then why do I have to be great why do I have to have even more, you know, in terms of what people think of me? Interesting. And, you know, in 2 weeks because, again, I love, like, I love using myself as a self improvement. You know? I I just like trying everything. It can't hurt. I'm actually in 2 weeks going to something in Florida that a friend highly recommended called gratitude training. So so I'll let you know how it is. Yeah. That sounds excellent. And, it's you know you know one thing that really helps me with gratitude training, even though I have no idea what that Right. Thing is about, is whenever I pass someone on the street, I imagine I'm their mother. Oh, god. Okay. With a stone. And so and then you just naturally feel this, like, warmth, you know, towards them. So it's kinda and so it's kinda odd. Like, if it's a if it's a a girl passing, sometimes they think I'm hitting on them because I'm just smiling. Or if it's like a man, I'm smiling at them. So anybody could think of all these things, but it gives me the just these natural feelings of well-being towards all of these other people around. Is that what what is that what your mom was like? Was she passionate? No. It's it's just kinda like my mental image. Why I asked. It's such a funny choice with a mother. It it it's my mental image of what a mother should be. Right. So the other thing I try to imagine is is that every person I come into con you know, everybody says, live life like you're gonna die tomorrow. So I do the reverse. I live life like everyone else is going to die tomorrow. So, like, that's why I I I'm talking to you, like, oh my god. Then maybe this is the last chance or the only chance I'm gonna have to talk to Neil Strauss because he might die tomorrow. It gets he dies, and you become the last man on the in the universe. Right. I think that yes. Yes. Your next book is I am the mother you never had. That's it. That that's a good one. I don't know about that. So so, you know, one of the things that, oh my gosh. I'll be asking more about the game. One of the things that scared me about the game, and I'll be totally honest because I'm, you know, deep down an insecure guy, one of the early chapters Because you didn't get enough affection from her mom. Exactly. Okay. That that's exactly it. We're get we're we're we're we're we've narrowed it down. But, one of the women, in the one of the early chapters was married and ever insisted, you know, this can't work on me, whatever. I'm married. And then, of course, in the next few pages, she's with 2 other guys other than her husband. And that, like, scared the hell out of me. Like, if that could happen to that woman, could that happen to any woman, potentially? Because you didn't have the security growing up that you don't have the confidence that you're the if you're the best one she can be. And then be anyway. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So yeah. But, yeah, you know what's fascinating? And I'll stop beating up about your childhood because I'm actually curious more about it now. But that's it. But first of all, going back to belief, all those beliefs like, hey. I'm not enough for my wife. You know, I'm, you know, I'm not enough as I am. And I just I read a great quote, which I'll read you. I just texted a very, very successful friend this quote, about productivity and and, and how that's almost a form of sort of self medication and stuff. But but, anyway, going back to the more shallow points or the deep point. The more shallow point is this. Yes. It was true. When I did the game, if I ever met if ever is ever out and I met a woman who is married or in a relationship, that and, again, I would not that I used to say when I did all the interviews, it was a code of ethics, but that hardly even sounds ethical as I say it now. But I used to say, and it was true, that I wouldn't hit on them. And if they kinda hit on me, I would allow it to happen. So it's f**king horrible. I can't even believe I said that as being ethical, but the ways we trick ourselves into into doing something we wanna do. But it was great that you described that in the book. Like, again, what was great about your book oh, oh, sorry. Go ahead. Could I finish the point? Oh, no. So the point was this, that if I met somebody who was married or in a relationship, you had a better chance of sleeping with her that night than someone you met who was not. And you if you didn't sleep with her that night, you might it might never happen because you didn't sleep with someone her that night, then you would have to exchange contact information, and then there it's more stressful for her. You could get caught. So in other words, I found that your odds of sleeping with someone who's married in a relationship the night you met them were higher than somebody who is often somebody who is single. Also, it's probably because there's there's some sort of selection bias that night. Like, you're only meeting the women that night who are probably open to having some kind of, you know, relationship outside their marriage. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And maybe they're out. And, again, sometimes we need someone who was out to get revenge on a cheating boyfriend or husband or felt, you know, their self esteem was hurt, so they're out looking for that fix. So, you know, a lot of the a lot of the techniques What a horrible what a what a freaking horrible. I think we were still talking about that book. Yes. Go ahead. What a horrible I mean, I I swear I could never write that book now. I couldn't even go in that go in that world now, but I think it's because I worked on the beliefs now instead of the behaviors. No. And I I I think though what was great though is that how honest you were about that in the book. And, again, I think authenticity in all of these books I'm willing to bet the more authentic you are in a book and you've written enough books, you could probably almost do a scientific experiment. The more you were authentic in a book, probably the better sales there were for that book. Yeah. Yeah. The yeah. I I find it true, man. I mean, I'll tell you a couple thoughts on that. I think they're important to us. If they wanna say, I was so authentic that I actually thought of writing under another name and pretending like I was the ghostwriter of it because I was so scared for it to come out. But the second thing is a lot of people come to me to write their book, write their either ghostwriter or cowrite their books, and I'll talk with them. And if anyone is scared of what other people will think or scared of how they're gonna come across or scared to show their insecurities or their their things they did that they're not proud of, I will never do a book with them because no matter how well known they may be, because the reader senses that and they feel that and the reader's intuitive and they know when someone's holding back. And and there's a lot of quote quotes on writing. In fact, I have a friend, well known magazine writer. His book did not do well. And it's because he's he's too scared to be vulnerable and to to show himself. In fact, when he read the book I just finished, he's like, what are your parents gonna think? I can never do that. And he's all stressed out what my parents are gonna think. And you know what? You got you gotta you own your own story, and you have to tell your own story, and you have to tell your truth. Well, you know, the reverse side of that is that, this is a writing suggestion. Maybe only write the things that you're afraid to write about. Yeah. For sure. For sure. And you know what? If you're afraid to write out, chances are those things that you're most afraid to share are the things other people need to hear. Right. I I know this I know this for a fact. Like, so so I at one point, I switched from kind of, like, writing about stocks or finance to kind of writing about myself and my failures in business, and then and then suddenly, my, you know, people who related to me, or related to my story, that audience grew incredibly. Yeah. And I think we're in this world now where a lot of people are trying to build their so called platform. Right? Yeah. They're trying to build their platform by choosing 1 niche. And in that niche, they're gonna be the king of the niche. And it's just a recipe for insincerity and and not having an audience because, it's the whole idea is so manufactured, and the whole idea of manufacturing yourself, it's so it's a, you know, it's it's a dead end way to go. And I agree. A lot of people usually get that big breakthrough when they just decide to be authentic. But here's the key, authentic and interesting. You know? There are parts of myself that are so authentic. They're just but they're boring, so I know to cut them out of the book. Well, you know, another thing you mentioned earlier, which is, you know, I asked you about theory versus, the science of things. It this dates back to to Buddha. Someone asked him, well, how do I know what you're saying is correct? And Buddha says, there is no way for you to know if what I'm saying is correct. This is so so Buddha was the best marketing guy of all time. He said he said this works for me. You should just try to see if it works for you. Awesome. So so we we dropped some Buddhist stuff earlier. That's good. That's I'm glad we we we touched on that even though even you were talking earlier even about the idea of meaninglessness and are we going you know, nihilism and Buddhism kinda have the same thing. It's all transient. It all passes by. Nothing matters. But one's a positive way of looking, and one's a negative way of looking at it. Right. So, you know, the other thing is, you know, taking out the the pickup scene completely, a lot of a lot of what you talk about are techniques for people to get out of their comfort zone. Because it might not be the case that people need to know techniques to manipulate people. People just need to know, gosh, I've been such an insecure, shy guy for 30 years. I just need to know how to get out of my comfort zone first. And so so forgetting all about the pickup scene, what are, like, suggestions you've seen work or you've tried to get out of your own comfort zone, whether in writing or life or relationships or whatever? Yeah. I think I I I really think this is where having a good friend, you know, come comes in, somebody to, to help to to to who knows you well enough that they're gonna push you outside your comfort zone and tell you when you're sort of taking a safe route. Because, again, if sometime for some people, the I'll tell you what. There's there's sort of, like, the fake get outside the comfort zone that's still in line with the comfort zone. Like, oh god. I would never do something like this, but here I am and I'm doing it. But, really, like, maybe it's not something you you know, it's then there's real get it to outside your comfort zone. Because I know people who are, you know, autodidacts and big learners or big self improvement people, but they'll all learn in just one area where they're trying to learn. They'll ignore another area that they need the most. So there's sort of fake getting outside your comfort zone. What's an example of that? Let me just think of an example of that. What's a fake comfort zone? Let's see. A fake comfort zone is like let's see. A fake comfort zone could just be, oh, you know, I never travel, and I'm gonna get get stuff outside of my comfort zone and take a trip to this, you know, to to somewhere random. Someone's gonna give me a ticket. I'm gonna go there. But maybe you actually do like adventure, but you're maybe that's a bad example. That's what I'm thinking of offhand, but I know a lot of people who sort of that's the sort of fake comfort zone, let's say. It's it's something you kinda really wanna do anyway, but you just haven't done or don't do. Or there's another maybe it's not maybe it's outside of a comfort zone of one sort of compartment of your life, but in another compartment, it really is the stuff you love. You know, and then I wish if I can think of a better example later, I'll do it. Then the sort of real comfort zone What about an example with you? Like, let's say after the game came out, you had plenty of opportunities open to you. Right? Because because, you know, there there's a mantra in kind of the infopreneur space that if you write about one of these things, get paid, get laid, lose weight, you're gonna make money. So was it out of your comfort zone to sort of decide, okay. Should I start a business in the pickup scene like many of the people you mentioned in the book? Oh, for sure. I hated it. I I hated it. I remember, like, the first time, like, I kinda did it. I remember the moment I heard it was success, like, I this feeling of, like, dread and horror washed through. I remember exactly. I was there. I was driving to meet the people who are doing, like, the business end of it, and I was going through a toll booth. And they called and said, hey. It's already sold out in, like, half an hour, and I just had this feeling of, like, horribleness. So Why? Because you were afraid to sell or because you were afraid you wouldn't, demonstrate success? Oh, Oh, no. No. No. I was afraid to sell. Like, I've I mean, keep in mind, I'm coming from a journalist background. Right. And and, and that's it. I I, you know, I write, and and then that's it. And just the idea of selling something and the idea and just remembering being broke in New York and having to sleep. I couldn't even afford a mattress that's something like a sheet on the floor. And, you know, and so I and I still so so there's a part of me that just doesn't like I just never my because my mom always said never a borrower nor a lender be or something, and I just always thought that I don't wanna, I don't know. I don't know. I just never sort of money from an individual versus money from a corporation felt was it was different, and I just was was not comfortable with it. Even again, if if I'm if it's great and I believe and it's changed my life and it's changed a lot, people are gonna get it. Just that was a zone of not comfort for me. So it's it's yeah. Continues to be. It it's interesting because I I have a similar issue. And, when you write a book, of course, people buy it. So you're selling books, but there's this kind of like publishing company buffer in the middle where you get you're you're getting all your checks from, you know, the big corporation, not from the individuals buying your book. I gotta charge for the book. It's the company. It's true. Because I'll always, like I'll speak at a conference. I'm like, hey. You can bring up your books, set up a table, have someone sell it. I've never once, you know, hand sold, you know, or a table sold or had anyone do it for me, you know, a book. But it's interesting. But, I mean, it's obviously a limiting belief and total nonsense because everyone's just buying your book anyway, and they're happy to do it. If they're not happy to do it, they can find a place to steal it online, and it's all good. You know, it's a it's a choice they're making, and they're presenting them with that choice. But, again, for some reason, that's just and, again, it's probably from that journalist background. So that was a good example of stepping outside my comfort zone. It still is, but I'll give you another example. I was having discussion last night with my with my wife. We were coming back, driving back from a, thing we were at. And, and I love talking. I have a vast sense of curiosity. I love talking to people and and and knowing about them. And she, was kinda ready to go when I was talking. So we're talk going back, and we're talking about shame. Right? What is shame? In fact, in the game, a lot of approach anxiety, being scared to talk to other people is not an anxiety about approaching. It's just personal shame, putting other people above, you know, yourself when in reality, all people are equal. Right? Like, what's an what's an example where you might feel shame talking to somebody? Oh, I don't. But I'll tell you where I would feel shame, karaoke. So my wife and I made this pact that we're just gonna go karaoke because my fear would be getting up in front of people and, like, singing. Because that would be the fear of public humiliation, which for many people is bigger than the fear of death. You know, just a fear of maybe just not being great at something, going up and failing and that being okay. And again, she has a great singing voice, but only when no one can hear it. So and she can't do it in public. So we thought, you know what? We're gonna this is like she's she's terrified to do it. I'm terrified to do it. And and even to walk up without practice and just do a song. So so as a small example, getting outside our comfort zone, that's that that's our next project for that. You should you know, I had one guest, on a few months ago who's a a well known, movie writer and director, and he was experiencing writer's block. And so the way he got over that was his own version of that, which was to do stand up comedy, because then you immediately are gonna constantly feel failure and humiliation no matter how good or bad you are, and it kind of gets you over that inner critic. Yeah. The difference and, again, guess what? I actually did that before I did the game for the New York Times when I was writing there. I went undercover. I talked to them in their article where I went undercover as a stand up comic for 6 months Wow. Trying to make it as a stand up comic. But I did exactly that just to kind of and it helps you, yes, it helps you get on stage and be comfortable talking to people on stage, but the difference is everything is very, very, very well planned. You know? And you work on your type five, your type five minutes. And once you have that 5 minutes, they're gonna laugh. At every point, you know they're gonna laugh. And, and there's some kind of there's actually some some confidence in planning in that to walk in to walk up there and actually not know what you're gonna say and then say something. You know, that's more impressive because it's really a it's really a controlled situation. It's a learning curve, and there's some fun there's some there's some fun too. But I agree it's a great way to get outside your comfort zone is doing stand up comedy. But Even more and even improv comedy more so because then you're really creating a relationship on stage. Yeah. So it seems like a common theme then of a lot of these things you're writing during this period, and I don't know if this occurs too in your in your upcoming book, but a lot a common theme was, how do I break out of my comfort zone? Yeah. Because that's where learning and growth happen, and that's why you're asking the question in the first place because you know it. I wanna know. Yeah. Or no. Because you know that outside of comfort zone is where the most learning and growth happen. Yeah. So so so what do you so, again, you you gave an example of, like, some some fake comfort zones, but what's, what's something that you would so other than karaoke now, what's something that you would suggest to people, hey. Try this the next time you're at x? I mean, it's it's a it's a I'll tell you what. Whatever you're making excuses about not doing is what you should be doing. Right? So whatever you're making excuses about not doing, it it should be doing, and it can be a small thing or or it can be a big thing. But think think about the thing it's the thing that you most fear. The thing I think it's great when you think there's something you're gonna do. Again, a common sense thing that you think how about this? And, again, no one's asking the question, so I wanna think about it out loud. When you're attaching consequences to something that really objectively doesn't have negative consequences. So, obviously, like, jumping out of a plane without a parachute, we attach negative consequences to that, and it does have a negative consequence. Jumping on a plane with a parachute while an instructor is holding you, is, let's just say, a fake fear because, again, your chances are are worse on the LA freeway of you know, I'm not sure exactly what the stats are. Again, my experience when I jumped off, it was okay. So so so I think it's so maybe the maybe the rule is you're attaching a negative consequence with something that really objectively may not have a negative consequence for you, then maybe that's something worth worth trying. So so, since since the game, obviously, you've written a bunch of books. You've had you've had ongoing success. You've also started, your your company style life that, is about these techniques. But how did you then, kind of break out completely from the scene and meet the lady who became your wife and now, you know, moved on to bigger and better? There's a quote from John Cage, the composer, and he says my credo is be open to whatever comes next. And that's it. I'm I'm kinda open to whatever whatever comes next. Like, I think the biggest challenge is not to be trapped in what you did before. Like, I talk to again, because I interview musicians all the time. I talk I they're always there's always this fear that a audience expects this of me. What do I do now? And, the answer is all people know of what you've done is what you've done before. They don't know what you're gonna do next, so you just keep doing what you do next. It's the hardest thing, and I've been having this discussion with a lot of people lately, is and I'd be curious for your experience, is it's really easy. You have nothing to lose when you're just trying to start a company or write a book or put an album out or direct write your screenplay or make a film, whatever it may be. But then once you have that first success, well, then you have something to lose. In fact, I was talking to a friend who is a magician, not not a guy from the game. And he had a hugely successful show, and he's just got writer's block for his next show because he has something to live up to now. No. It's very true. Like, you know, I I I almost curse the days where someone I really respect writes me and says, I love your writing. Because then I know I'm shot for the day. Right. Right. Because then suddenly, I'm gonna be writing. That's my audience. Well, s**t. And what did that guy love about it? How can I do more of that? And then you're not you're not you're not kind of evolving. And again, you know, again, you make a big thing out of failing. Like like like like you said earlier, it's nothing nothing nothing to hide. It doesn't matter. I think you you gotta be connected passionately to what you're doing and do do what's do what's true to you. And and the rules change every month, every week, every year, and and I think the biggest the biggest, mistake people can make is being attached to what worked in the past. I I think that's very true. I think and and, you know, there's only so many stories from your past you can tell, and there's only so much drama in your present you can tell. So sometimes you have to actually create out of, like, others or or you have to remix in innovative ways what's inside of you. And that's, that's the source of creativity, but it's also gonna be different from what your audience is used to. And that's okay. In fact, there's a again, I was talking there's a friend of mine. Sorry. I keep mentioning these friends and and everything. But You have so many friends. I have so many friends. They're they're they're so he's a producer, and there was a band that was kinda well known in the in the nineties. And they're coming to make an album, and and he they said, well, he said, I love this thing you wrote in your in your you know, Brooke, can't you just do something like this? It was a poem he wrote or something. And he was like, well, no. That's not what my audience wants. The band doesn't like this. It's not what we do. We play this kind of music. He says, listen. Your audience likes you. So this goes to everyone. Listen. Your audience likes you. They don't like what you do. They actually like you. You think they like what you do, but they like you. And whatever you do is you. So go do, you know, go do that. And if they hadn't if they kept doing what they'd always done, they'd be forgotten. Instead, they just kinda did the thing they were scared their audience wouldn't like and that wasn't true. That felt not true to what they've done before, and that became their kind of biggest hit, and they're still around. Interesting. Can you say the name of the band? You know what? I that story might have been told told to me privately, so I I shouldn't. Okay. No problem. Yeah. So so so I was wondering about this. I I read that you, in 2010 started your own imprint with HarperCollins. Right. How did that how did that happen? Like, how did that what happened to that? Yeah. So, yeah, it was ignit it was Igniter Books, and and, I just got excited because I was seeing there's so many great writers. I was there were so many great book ideas and so many people coming up to me, and, you know, I couldn't write them all. So I thought, hey. Why don't I just find the idea, find a great writer for it, and and make it happen? And I gotta make that happen. I did my first book was with Larry Harman, who was bozo the clown. Yes. We had a childhood here. I grew up in Chicago. And now and and I've really had bad he he passed away just before the book came up, but he gotta have his story told and made me so happy. And then there's a group called the Lewin Brothers. It's won a Grammy last year for, like, lifetime achievement or in music and amazing bluegrass band from the forties. One one evil brother, one very good brother, and it's like a Coen Brothers movie, their story. And if you if anyone's on Google, look up the album cover Satan is Real by the Lupin Brothers. It's probably the greatest album cover of all time, Satan is Real. And, and their song Knoxville Girl is the greatest murder ballad of all time, period. Knoxville Girl by the Lupin Brothers. Anyway, so, so one brother was still alive. The other one, of course, the wild one died young. And, and I just knew his story had to be told. And so I hooked him up with a writer, and and they got his his story told. And, again, he passed away before it came up, but at least the story got told that it would have been gone it would have been gone otherwise. And and so I really loved doing that. But And then everybody nobody wanted to write a book with you again because everybody was gonna die. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. Seriously, right, I'm I'm I'm really it's a it's a bad heading average. In fact, I did another book that was so controversial. I can't say what it is that, like, that HarperCollins would not put it out. I had to put it out. It was it was all done and ready, and the publisher wouldn't put it out. I wouldn't even put my name on it. It was such a dangerous book, but I found a new publisher to put it out. Yeah. And there there's a Woah. Woah. Wait. Wait. Woah. What was dangerous about it? Let's just say that it was about a world, where there's a lot of murder and death. And it was a story I felt like had to be told. And and this then and it's not gonna get told? Can you self publish it? Told. No. No. It came out. I had it I had it found a really brave, maybe, publisher to put it out. Oh, what's the name of that one? I don't think I know it. I I I can't I I can't say because, my name's not on a book or anything. I just I know my name, and I and I have a child. Okay. Alright. Fair enough. Fair enough. But I I guess I guess my thought is there are stories that need to be told. If they're not gonna be told, I start with imprint to make sure those stories get told. So as soon as an agent approaches me out of the book, I won't put it out because someone else is gonna put it out. So, you know, let me answer this. A lot of, you know, a lot of books that you write seem to be not about the subject so much, but about and, again, you're putting yourself in the story. It's about your friendships with the people in the subculture. So, like, with with again, with the game, I'm I'm I'm not asking you about the techniques, but but but but, like, obviously, you wouldn't write all this stuff about mystery if you weren't friends with him. Like, you, you know, traveled to Belgrade with him. And I wonder for you if you were just excited, like, hey. This is a subculture of of men, actually, that I wanna be friends with. Oh, I mean, I guess I I think the answer is, like, I've never I was I really was became real friends with him and was friends with him. In fact, the it was never a book idea. Originally, it was just I was a lonely guy who was always in friend zone and could not figure out why I was always in friend zone. So I got into the culture just to get out of the friend zone, like, you know, and not be like the wallflower in the party. And then it became so interesting that I thought I had to write a book about him about this world, but I was already and that point, I think, happened when we were in Belgrade. So so the friendship so, basically, all my books, they never start as a book idea. It's a life idea that eventually becomes so obsessive it becomes a book. Well, what about, the Jenna Jameson book? Oh, that that that that that was just me. That was me before the game thinking that would get me to have sex, but it didn't work. I I would think that would get you close, though. It got it got me it got me close. I definitely, like, watched porn stars fool around with each other in in limousines and was on the set of sex films, which gets remarkably boring very quickly, believe it or not, even for a young, desperate guy. It's almost like you were in the mega friend zone. Like, these are people who are basically gonna have sex with anybody, and you were the friend. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, man. Like, yeah. For sure, there's a reason why I got so obsessed with the game. I mean, I mean, I did the Motley Crue book. And, again, I didn't do these things just to have sex. I also knew they had great stories, and they were kinda cultural icons. But, yeah, the Motley I mean, it's come on. As as a kid, like, to tour with Motley Crue with a backstage pass hanging around my neck, that was gonna be, like, the passport to decadence. And I remember, like, I go backstage. I get a big stack of backstage passes from, like, one of the road cases, and I go out and, like, hand them out to to women. And they go, thanks. And I'd be like, well, when's the sex supposed to happen? And I didn't but they already had their backstage pass, so it really matter. So no. I I mean, I was so pathetic that even with a with a all access pass on a Motley Crue tour, I still didn't have sex. I remember sometimes in the Chris Rock the new Chris Rock movie top 5, you're lying in bed and talking about, like, I think he calls it ho sleep, how you're sleeping, but you know a woman's gonna come over and, like, you can't quite sleep because you're waiting for the knock on the door. Like, remember sometimes, like, a band member, a bodyguard would say, I'll bring a woman over to your room, and I'd stay in the room, like, half sleeping, and it would never happen even. So so, So So you had to do this. You had to you had to figure out what was going wrong. Right. Right. So so the new book is called The Truth. It's it's it's way in the future. We'll have you back on again. But what's that book about? It it's it's I'll I'll I'll tell you what. I'll I'll only tell you one I'll tell you one thing, and then we can't ask follow-up questions. Well, yeah, it begins in sex addiction it begins with me in sex addiction rehab. So Wow. Let let's just say I went from it's it's it's a it's a cosmic irony. But it's really about, because everywhere I'm everywhere I'm coming from now are really trying to understand yourself, your relationships, and kinda be happy in in in life. And and it really is about trying to fix what's broken with you so you can have a relationship and be in love and and be happy and not self sabotage yourself in your life. Okay. But again, on on the on kind of the creative technique, it's not really about those things. It starts with you in sex rehab. So you're the story. You're not on a pedestal telling people how to have great relationships. You're trying to figure this out for yourself, and you kind of write about what I'm assuming you write about what happens along the way. Yeah. And yeah. And here's what's fascinating. So I started writing the book with a certain fixed idea in mind, and the fixed idea was this. I'll just tell you what the hell you already got me talking about. Bastard. But here's I'm I'm wondering if I use one of your techniques. I don't know now. No. It's just that I get into what I'm doing, and I and, and, and I'm joining the conversation. So so, you probably you probably are. You Yeah. So it's so I started the idea with a fixed idea in mind, which was that, you know, monogamy doesn't work. Marriage is anachronistic. These are all just sort of, you know, bulls**t things that our culture has us do when we just do it because the people before us did it, and it's reinforced by the media. And I started with this sort of chip on my shoulder about about monogamy. And I started writing it from that perspective. And I was thinking my goal in the book was to, like, develop a new kind of relationship that once other people realize this was the natural way we're supposed to be in relationships, they would all sort of start doing it. I was gonna change relationships, and we all start writing some grandiose idea, which, of course, never happens. Yeah. That sounds horrible. Yeah. Sounds horrible. So I start so I start writing it. I'm reading the book as I'm writing it, and I just think, like, this guy's a idiot. Like, I'm really reading, like, me, my story that I'm just writing because I'm writing it as it's happening. And I read it. Again, I'm writing. I really think I'm writing. I read. I'm like, man, this is like some damaged guy. And he's, like, really messed up. He really thinks he's right. He won't listen to anyone when they're even telling him exactly what he should do, and it's kinda sad. And actually through reading the book as I was writing it, it ended up being about, you know, something else than what it should have been. But it was really like sitting down and reading what I wrote and seeing how it comes off on the page. I mean, I don't to actually see myself from the outside and see who I was. It wasn't a pretty picture. I I don't know if you write about this, but do you write about that, how you initially started this way and then you kinda hated yourself doing it? You know what? I wanted to. I tried to put that in there, but it was too meta. It was too meta, and it took people out of this took people out of the story. I thought let them just have the story and see how that evolution happens, you know, naturally. It was too meta of a way to it wasn't good for the storytelling. I wish I tried. Believe me, I tried 10 ways to Sunday to to put that in there in the introduction. And and have you ever considered writing any of these things as, like, fiction? Or or, you know, again, with the game, it seems like that that's a natural for a movie. Yeah. To answer the 2 questions, one is, like, I do think a lot of old older fiction was just nonfiction with, you know, with with different with different names. Like, take take Bukowski as an example. Right. All of his novels except for his last one were totally nonfiction. Right. But, like, post office it happened to where John Fante was don't know if you've ever read John Fante. Yeah. Yeah. Asta Dust, all of this stuff. Yeah. So so those are guys who really wrote about their own lives and just kinda changed the names. And nowadays, we wanna hear the real story, and it's more interesting to us if it's true. So, you know, probably back then, I would have been writing fiction. Yeah. Like, Ben Mezrich is another guy who writes a lot of stuff that almost could be novelized, but, but writes it as literary nonfiction. Yeah. That's it. And by the end, all I read I mean, 90% of what I what I read is, is fiction because that's what influences me. What fiction writers do you like? For sure, Jon Fantay, Ask the Dust, The Road of Los Angeles, and there's a story it's in a book of 2 stories called My Dog Stupid. That's just hilarious. So I love Jon Fantay. James Joyce Ulysses, I read every 3 years. Just because it's more like a of a puzzle than anything else, and every time I get more clues to the puzzle. Right. Let's see. I love, Celine. So so John Fante and Celine, obviously, all in the Bukowski genre. Self basically, self hating writers. My favorites. So so let me guess. Hunger by Newt Hansom, it must be on your list? Hell, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hunger yeah. Exactly. Because that's that's that's lineages. Bikowski, Fante, Hunger. What what else is in that? I always look for more books like that, and I haven't found I I think I think Raymond Carver is in that genre. Yeah. You know what? I tried I tried Raymond Carver. I'll I'll I'll I'll try some more. You know, also not bad is there's a there's a Jack London moot book called Martin Eden. It's not quite so self hating, but it's a great a really good it's it's somehow in that in that genre. Not exactly, but it's it's really good. Dennis Johnson's collection, Jesus' Son, the collection of short stories. Yep. Yep. That that's good. Oh, and I read recently a Richard Price book called ladies' man, which is not about a ladies' man at all, but, but I really enjoyed his style. I really like, oh, and and freaking, Hubert Selby. Oh, yeah. Last Exit of Brooklyn. Last Exit of Brooklyn and the other one, which is great. Can't remember right now. But, but, yeah, I really like those kind of stream of consciousness, you know, really raw writers. Yeah. Those are those are my favorites as well, or or many of my favorites. I I particularly like, sorry about the train. I particularly like, Denis Johnson's stuff quite a bit. Have you read anything else besides Jesus is not good? I've read all of his books. Great. Yeah. They're all good. But the collection of short stories I've is my favorite. Oh oh oh, I got one for you. William Cotswinkle, the fan man. I have not read that, and it has been recommended to me. So now now I'll have to read that. Yep. Well Interesting. Well, Neil, thanks so much for spending the time. I'm glad we had this conversation, got a chance to know each other because when your book does come out, I want you to come on again, and we'll we'll talk more directly about it. Great. And I hope we weren't too all over the place for those listening. No. All over the place is great. What because because what else is there to talk about? Yeah. Alright, man. I look forward to talking more in the future. Okay. Thanks, Neil. Talk to you soon. Alright. Take care. Bye. Now that's what we call done. Visit Stansbury radio choose yourself.com to download our free report called the choose yourself stories and check back daily for more Ask Altitude.