B.E.E. - Kevin Smith Part 2 - 1/13/14

Transcript

How do you go from selling fax machines door to door for years? I think it was about 8 years, and you have this weird idea for a new fashion item. It's weird. And in order to sell it, you have to take the salesperson to the bathroom and show her how this works. So fax machines to one sale to billionaire. Let's find out from one of my favorite people, Sarah Blakely. This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the James Altucher show. Sarah, I'm always bad at the beginning of these things because I feel like at some point, I need to let you speak, but I also have to introduce who you are. But I'll just start off by saying, not only am I a huge fan, I think you're one of the most incredible people ever. And you used the word courage before we you are one of the most courageous people I know. So I'm gonna let you speak eventually, but I I do feel I have to intro. But I'll intro by saying this. We're recording this on inauguration day, and I was gonna cover the inauguration for a newsfeed. Right? I had spent months volunteering, you know, for no pay and then getting White House credentials, and I even got invited to an inaugural ball. And then when I heard today was the day you were available, I canceled all that to do this podcast. Oh my are you serious? I am totally serious. That's I I'm really flattered, and I feel pressure. Like, now I gotta really No. No. I step up my game, but that is so nice. I almost didn't wanna tell you because I didn't want you to feel pressured because, also, reality is as I get closer to an event, I realized, do I really wanna be out in the cold all day? So I'm glad we're we're doing this. But Sara Blakely, inventor of Spanx, you know, I don't know what it's valued at. It's a multibillion dollar company. You also what what I you know, the main impetus for this is you also, are involved in many charities, but, in particular, you just came out with a book, The Belly Art Project, which was just this amazing thing out of your own imagination, which, you'll explain, but it helps all women who are going through childbirth. And we'll get into Spanx in a second, the charity also. But I didn't know this one basic statistic that you have on the website, which is that 3 women a day in the US die from childbirth related issues. Is that really true? Yes. How do they like, while they're giving birth, they die, or what happens? You know, I'm I'm not exactly sure how they're, dying, but the point is that there's such an opportunity to help with maternal health. And so this particular project, since my foundation is mostly about empowering women, but this creative idea was so linked to pregnancy in that moment in time that a woman is carrying a child and, you know, giving birth that I gave all the funds from this book to Every Mother Counts, which is Christy Turlington's foundation. So they're the ones doing real important work on the ground to help with maternal health. Well, I wanna get into the genesis of the ballet art project, but there's a lot of comparison between what you did here and what you did with Spanx. So I know you've been interviewed a 1000000000 times about Spanx. Is it okay with you if I ask you a little about that? Because I see these Yeah. Of course. Comparisons. One is, it seems, you know, you just mentioned the word about empowering women and helping women. And it seems like beyond making a lot of money, beyond be creating a a new element of fashion, beyond, painting pregnant bellies. There's this overall vision that you had from way back from pre spanx of how can I empower women and give them more confidence? And and I see this as this running theme through all these things, and it fires your creativity, your business sense, everything. Like, where did this start? You know, I I think about that often. Where did this start? I didn't come from a family that was talking about women's rights or, you know, anything in regards to this, but I feel like it came from just this understanding and knowing, that I was so lucky to be a woman born in this country at the time that I was. And I literally, for as long as I can remember, had that sense of this gratitude about that. I think part of it had to do with my mom also. I saw my mom as, you know, someone who wasn't given as many opportunities and how that affected her in her life, and my grandmother as well. So I I just had this, oh my God, you know, I've got to I've got to take advantage of this, not only for myself, but on behalf of other women because I'm such a believer that the world would be such a better place if half the human race was able to contribute in a really meaningful way and wasn't held back and was encouraged and supported to go be their best version of themselves, whatever that is. But many, young girls, and I have 2 daughters, many young girls will, not take the opposite view of their mom. So your your your mother was a, a homemaker, which is very important, but she was also an artist. Right? And at some point, you said you must have said to yourself, well, I could do more. There's something she's not doing that I could be doing. And what what was what was that moment? Well, I also sensed my mom's sadness. So my mom and I we've talked about that, but my mom suffered from depression most of my childhood. And so, you know, I saw this woman that I just felt like a little bit. She was the most wonderful mother. She's really the sweetest person I've ever met in my life. I mean, she literally was voted most sincere in college, like she's just this woman who has this angelic quality about her, but there was always a sadness. And, and so, I I may have just absorbed that at a young age of like, I'm gonna live not only my life, but I'm gonna live a life for my mother and all the other women like my mother or my grandmother. So that part of my drive and my courage came from that. You know, I'm afraid of most things, like, I'm afraid to public speak, I'm terrified of heights, I don't like to fly, I'm afraid to fly. So the list goes on and on, but, you know, when I think about where does where do I get the courage? Because I would go out and read all these books about how to how to live your best life. And I always joke that there was like the aisle of self help, like, you can do it, believe in yourself, get courage, find courage, and then but no one would tell you how. And then there'd be the aisle of from good to great, you know, once you've already got your business, here's how to make it bigger, but there wasn't the aisle of like, but tell me how to get courage, tell me how to believe in myself. I know that I should. And so when I reflect back, I think courage really comes from a few places for me. One is gratitude. I mean, having immense gratitude really helps me with courage. Did you have to train yourself to have gratitude? Because I feel that's almost a muscle that needs to be exercised, and many people are not grateful. Many people want the next thing. We're all we always wake up and figure out what's the next thing rather than reflecting on, well, hey, things are are good for me and gives me that the fact that things are good for me gives me the power to do the next thing. So so was it hard for you to to learn gratitude, particularly coming from, a situation where your mom was depressed and that's what you saw growing up? It might have been just, partially how I was baked, you know, like, how I came into the world. But, I I just feel like, the gratitude piece really was there as long as I could remember. And part of it isn't even gender specific for me. It's just I truly feel so grateful for life. Like, to me not to try every day to be the best version of myself I could be seems like it's not saying thank you for this gift that I was given. So the courage is one thing. Gratitude is one thing that really gives me courage. The other one is embracing my own mortality. I think a lot of people don't really think about their own mortality until life kind of goes on a certain course and you might lose a parent in your later years or someone that, you know, you love, and then you kind of have this relationship with that. But I I had so many circumstances happened to me early on, but I really embrace my own mortality. But like what what circumstances? Well, like, when I was 16, one of my best friends was run over by a car in front of me, and that was, you know, a really intense moment of, oh my god, life is super fleeting. You know, it it created a sense of urgency, but also gratitude for me. And then a a bunch of other series of, you know, tragic accidents happened to people that I loved, and it just kept being a reminder. But I don't look at mortality as a depressing subject or something that I don't wanna think about. I it it totally inspires me because it makes me feel so much less afraid when I put my life in perspective. It's like, what are we doing? Like, we're only here for what, 60 years, 80 years, a 100 if you're lucky? Like, the the universe and the scale of it, we are a blink of an eye. So to let fear hold me back, I I just start to think about the perspective of it all. So it's like when you when you there's a meta thinking that happens. So when you sense that you're feeling fear about something, are you aware instantly I just wasted that second feeling fear, so now I'm gonna do something about it? Yeah. And it is sort of like a muscle. The more that you embrace and face fears, the stronger that muscle becomes. And, you know, so the embracing my own mortality and gratitude, and then the third thing that really gives me courage is purpose beyond yourself. So attaching yourself to something that's greater than you. So I felt this drive to wanna help women. And so when I was terrified to cold call the Neiman Marcus buyer, or when I was terrified to be on the Oprah show, or when I was shaking in my boots to, you know, do half of the things I need to do, stand in the manufacturing plant in North Carolina and talk to the owner who was scary about my invention idea. Each one of those times, you know, I I was tapped into, but this is bigger than me, like I'm doing this for women and on behalf of women, and that, more than anything, gave me the courage. Would you, kind of have a feeling of I'm just trying to kinda dissect the actual feelings going through your head during these really high stakes moments. Would you feel kind of a sense of surrender? Like, oh, there's something bigger I'm working for here, like this kind of empowerment and and vision I have for women, so I'm gonna surrender to that knowing that that will help me, or do you or or do you instead push forward? Okay. I'm doing this for women, so it's gonna be right. Like, how do Both. Both. Okay. It's both. It's kind of, you know I mean, throughout my entire journey, I've been afraid. I mean, I'm just I just am. I'm nervous a lot. I get anxiety. You know, I'm still at this stage of the the journey. I still experience all those emotions, and yet, I just think it is so incredibly important, just feels self indulgent to sit back and say, oh, well, I'm not gonna do it. That feels self indulgent to me because of the gift of life. It's like, oh, no. Wait. I just I gotta I have to go for this. Life is not a dress rehearsal. But maybe if you also sit back and relax and be afraid, things will fall apart because you've lived in you you've lived your whole life kind of pushing into the fear. Are you afraid to not face fear? I'm not afraid to not face fear. I've just seen over and over again the benefits and how my life expands every time I do that, and that's my favorite part of life. For someone listening to this who thinks, oh my gosh, I can't accomplish what Sara Blakely has accomplished in her life, what what would you say? What's what's kind of a way to kind of test this muscle a little bit? What can they face that they are are afraid of today? What was the last thing you were major afraid of, like, in the past few days even? Well, I mean, last night, I went to an event for Warren Buffett. He invited me to the premiere of his movie, Becoming Warren Buffett. I was afraid to go. I was nervous. I went by myself. My husband couldn't be there. I mean, I had to, like, give myself a pep talk to walk into the room and, you know, so and and Warren What do you say in your pep talk? Like, get over yourself. It's okay, and this is great, and just power through it, breathe through it, smile, go in there, and make it happen. So but, sometimes I'll listen to music that that gets me through things, but, So someone listening to this. But, I I want to just say to answer your question. So my father gave me a super important gift growing up. He used to encourage me to fail. So, sitting at the dinner table with my brother, my dad would say, what did you fail at this week? And if we didn't have something that we had failed at, he would actually be disappointed. And I can remember coming home from school and saying, dad, dad, I tried out for this and I was horrible, and he'd go, way to go and high five me. And that was so interesting because what he was doing was reframing my definition of failure. So failure for me didn't become about the outcome, it became about not trying. So the only failure for me feels like when I don't try something for for fear. Like, if I'm afraid to do it and I don't do it, then I've failed. If I do it and it doesn't turn out great or I make a fool of myself or I embarrass myself or whatever, that that's not the failure. It's almost like you could, and I've seen this throughout your career. You you would lean into a failure to try to find the opportunity in it. And I think a lot of people don't learn that skill because let's take school right now or even when we were growing up. You know, everybody needs an a plus or they're unhappy. Whereas, the the reality is life is about getting c's most of the time after you graduate school. Mhmm. So you're not really supposed to fail or admit failure or give yourself permission to fail Mhmm. But your father was essentially giving yourself permission to fail. Completely. And and celebrating it because I mean, obviously, he was celebrating he wasn't celebrating lack of effort. He was celebrating trying new things and getting out of our comfort zone and, like, go try out to sing if you know you're horrible at it just to see what happens or, you know, try these experiences. And, that that was really an important gift to do. And I also seek out to embarrass myself, so I often try to embarrass myself. And if too much time goes that I haven't embarrassed myself, I can sense it in myself, and I'm like, I gotta I gotta do something embarrassing because it loses its power over me. So so, again, someone listening to this, how can they today embarrass themselves? Well, just what are some other things? A 1000000 ways to embarrass yourself. I'll sing in an elevator for no reason with other people in there, and my heart will be pounding and everyone's, like, uncomfortable and it's awkward and embarrassing, or I will, you know, just ask a really a question that I know really sounds quite stupid, but I'm curious about it and put myself out there. And I think when you let go of this need to sound smart and look smart or free yourself up from all that, like, really good things start to happen. And, so that's you know, I did I joined an improv class when I was, in my twenties in Atlanta. Well, I was gonna ask about that because before everything, before the value art project, before Spanx Yes. Before you were selling fax machines, you know Door to door. In the pre Spanx period. I I saw there's just, like, one line about it, but you tried to be a stand up comedian. Yeah. That that is the hardest thing in the world. I've I've done so twice, try gone up on stage and done stand up. You have? It is the scariest The scariest. Thing in the world. In the world. No doubt. I mean, I can think about it now and start shaking. It's that that scary. And I just I just was I'm try like, I have this motto that the more you experience in life, then the more you have to offer others. So I'm always like, bring on a new experience. Like, what's something that I wouldn't really do that, you know, that I can go try? And that was on my list, and every time I'd look at it, I'd be like, no way. There's no way because I would just start shaking and flip out. And so I was like, okay, that's the one on my list I gotta really do. And, it's because you loved stand up or like No. What was it about stand up then? No. No. No. I just, I find humor in almost everything. Like, as human beings, I'm very, my humor was sort of observational humor. I almost feel like I've been going through life standing beside myself, observing myself as well as the rest of life. And I just see humor all the time, like the quirkiness of it all and the the, you know, so for me, it was just an opportunity or an outlet to I would used to write comedy all the time in my notebooks or I'd see things, and then I'd get up and and do it. But I wasn't particularly good at it. What happened? How do you know you weren't good at it? I mean, I was good. I was okay. I got asked back several times, but I mostly did open mic for 2 years around the country. I did the improv in Dallas. I did Are you kidding? For 2 years? Yeah. You're like you're like practically a pro. They didn't give you an HBO special. No. But, anyway, I'm very glad I invented something because that was a really intense chapter and took I I have so much respect. First of all, cold calling. I cold called for 7 years, which is also terrifying and super humbling. I mean, I sold fax machines door to door for 7 years from a 100% cold calling in Clearwater, Florida where I grew up. And you I would get escorted out of buildings. I people ripped up my business card in my face at least once a week. Why would they be so angry about, oh, this girl wants to sell me a bad connection? Be a no soliciting sign on their door Yeah. And they were just annoyed. Like, here's someone who walked through the door and is trying to sell me something. I mean, I used to have to stand in, like, office complexes and dodge and hide from the security guards. You know, like, I can remember standing behind planters and stuff, like, please don't see me because they would escort me out of buildings. I mean, it was intense. And I think I would be scared to to call or to cold call or go door to door. Like like, what's, what's kind of a technique of cold calling that you would use? Well, I mean, I can always remember trying to make somebody laugh or smile because if you do that in the first 15 to 30 seconds, you usually get another 15 or 30 seconds, and I often found the best way to do that was to be self deprecating or show some form of vulnerability. Showing a form of vulnerability always just seemed to connect on a more human level, and it gave permission for the other people I feel like to be kinder and also maybe wanna help. So instead of trying to walk in and be, you know Missus fax woman. Missus fax woman, I'd walk in and be like, okay. I'm so I'm so uncomfortable right now, and I know you don't want me in here, but this is my job. And I know I have a fax machine that can really help your business. So I would just I would just be as authentic as I could. I mean, I have times where, you know, all all kinds of things happen to me in that, but it was such good training ground because I heard the word no all day every day. And so you just learn you just gotta keep going. And so hearing no didn't stop me when I was trying to start Spanx, and I heard no for a solid, you know, a solid year. So so you got this training in failure from your dad. You got this training in no from your first job. Mhmm. You got this training in dealing with fear in stand up because, obviously, getting up in front of a crowd and trying to make them laugh is scary. And now you're ready for Spanx. And and, plus, you had this kind of you had 2 other things going on. You had this vision of empowering women, and I wanna relate that to the the ballet art project as well. And you also had kind of, you mentioned you you listened to a William, Wayne Dyer tape Mhmm. And that helped you with visualization and kind of moving forward. Do you wanna describe the the tape and and what you want to put? Absolutely. I was 16 years old and my very close friend was just run over by a car in front of me and died, and my father left home. My parents got separated and ultimately divorced. And when my dad was leaving the house, he came into my bedroom and handed me this cassette series called How to be a No Limit Person by Wayne Dyer. And he said, Sarah, I wish I discovered this when I was your age instead of 40 and left. Why did you listen why did you listen to the tape then? Because if I hand my 17 year old daughter a tape, it's kind of a crapshoot whether she listens to it or not. I'll tell you why it's what I talk about, there's always a hidden blessing in all situations. My life at that time was so dark and I was so sad, and it was just the gift that came from being through such an extremely traumatic event and such profound grief for the loss of my friend, and then my family was splitting up all at the same time. It was like, I think if anyone else at any other time had handed me this cassette series with this middle aged bald man with a bushy mustache, like, smiling at me how to be an no limit person, I probably would've thrown it in the closet, but I was hungry and ripe for anything that could possibly make me feel better. And the minute I put it in, I literally I I just felt like I could breathe. I everything he said made sense to me, and I quickly realized I'm in school all day every day and people are teaching me what to think, but nobody is teaching me how to think. And Wayne Dyer was the first introduction in my life of someone truly teaching me how to think, how to think in a way that could maximize my journey here. You know, like visualization and manifesting things and law of attraction. And if someone's mean to you, don't hit the ball back. Like, you don't have to own that. You know? It's like, don't get in the Volley. Like, that's their stuff. They own it. And all of these things as a 16 year old meant so much to me, and it sent my life on a different trajectory. So out of deep sadness and trauma and a really dark bad situation, this wonderful thing happened that changed the course of my life. And I feel a lot of this is about a lot of what you're saying is all about kind of that middle ground between the two aisles of self help, and here's where your business is gonna go from good to great. It's all that in between of how do we go from kind of this bland self help that doesn't really, between of how do we go from kind of this bland self help that doesn't really help to, how do you achieve greatness? Nobody nobody teaches that because people are doing it as opposed to writing it or teaching it. Mhmm. And and you kinda found your own way through that to to learn. And, you know, I feel there's one other thing that happens, and then I kinda wanna get into the genesis of both these things, Spanx, which has obviously been so important in your life, and and the ballet art project. Seems like you have this way of looking at everyday things that people have looked at billions of times, and you look at it with a twist. So what if we take pantyhose and chop off the feet? Or what if we take a pregnant belly and turn that into a canvas of art? Like, people have obviously looked at pregnant bellies for a 1000000000 gazillion years, and no one turned it into a canvas of art until you came along. I mean, maybe someone did, but you've made it a whole thing. And and, again, with pantyhose, you even dealt with this. Like, you cut off the feet. You figured out how to deal with, the pantyhose rolling up, and you invented your own, you know, kind of way of doing it. And everyone was asking you, well, don't you think somebody would have done this by now? Why do you think nobody did this until now? Why do you have this way? How do people learn that way of looking at something and saying, oh, it's it's not just pantyhose. It's this. It's not just a pregnant belly. It's this. How do you look at something differently? Well, I think part of it is this standing beside myself observing myself live life. Like, if I'm not so in it, it's like I it it I don't know how to describe it, but I feel very, aware. I'm very present in in awareness of life happening around me. And, I spend a lot of time thinking. It's one of my favorite things to do. And I find that that time that you give yourself where your mind can just wander is where you really start to connect with this ability, and we all have it. But we don't spend as much time, you know, with how much time in your life or your day do you allocate to just letting your mind wander? And how do you let your mind wander without letting it wander to, well, then he said to me, and I should have said back to him, and blah blah blah. Like, kind of the the downward spiral that many kind of anxious thoughts get into. Mhmm. And the majority of us are anxious most of the time. Yep. It's where you do it. For me, I found my most productive thinking is in the car, and there's something about the road activity of driving that's accessing a different part of my brain that then my mind can wander. So I actually have a fake commute. My friends call it my fake commute. I live 5 minutes from Spanx headquarters in Atlanta, but I leave an hour before work and I drive around Atlanta in my car on my fake commute because I have really great mind wandering then. And so, you know, I sometimes, like, I spend hours just thinking with just background music on. And for me, now that I'm a mother of 4 under the age of 7, it's the car only, really. It used to be before I was married and before I had children, it would be in my apartment, and I just reveled in it. I loved it. And some days when you you allocate time to have your mind wander, it does just stay in that kind of he said, she said why that happened to me, whatever, but oftentimes, it doesn't. So you give yourself permission for that if you realize you just spent your thinking time doing he said, she said. Yeah. You're not supposed to judge yourself during this time. It's like, let it be what it is. But over time, you know, for me, it was it's such an important part of my life. But, again, it's like a it's like a muscle, like that creativity muscle. How do you veer back into thinking of things differently? Like, essentially, creativity. Yeah. Like, I wanna ask everybody who's listening now to take inventory how much time in a day or a week do you spend alone thinking? Like, how much? You know? And that is where all of the answers come. That's where creativity comes. That's where just it's an important tool for each and every one of us. And a lot of people are afraid to be alone and sit in their own thoughts, you know, they're uncomfortable with it because it's not something they've done. I mean, especially now, we have so much around us that is absolutely distracting us from ourselves. I mean, from iPhones to now there's televisions even in elevators. I mean, it's like the stimuli is coming at us from every direction now. So now I feel like you have to be even more diligent about this is my time. And, you know, I read that, Einstein, all his best thoughts came when he was shaving, which is another rote act you know, like, something he was doing must have his mind must have been in a certain place that, like, he would have these moments of thought. So find out where and when in your life that happens for you. I happen to figure out it's in the car. So that's where I try to allocate time for myself to be there. So, like, what's an idea you've had that you net that you didn't act on? Because you must have, millions of ideas that you don't really act on. 6 pages, single spaced of ideas. So you write that afterwards. You write them down. Like, what's an example? My assistant who's been with me forever, like, over 15 years, she's like, oh my god, Sarah. I mean, how many times does she had to print those 56 pages, and then I just scan through them and I'll circle. Like, the belly art project was one of those ideas on these pages. So I get I get ideas all the time. Like, I had an idea the other day of, inventing or creating a, cape that you would put on in the salon that is breathable and keeps you cool because they're so hot. You're sitting under the lights of the salon, and they put that black nonbreathable cape on you, and you're you're warm and hot. And I just thought, this is something that hasn't changed in a really long time. Someone needs to pay attention to this. Like, there's got to be with materials now a far better version that still stops the hair from falling on you, but has some breathability. So that was one idea. But I love how, again, it's these simple, simple things. It's not like you're inventing a rocket ship to Mars, which may or may not be even useful to society. You actually have created things that are immensely immensely useful to society. So so so which brings me finally to Spanx. Spanx. You you you went to a a ball or a party or whatever, and you realized you didn't wanna have the feet on the pantyhose, so you cut them off. Well, I didn't want panty lines. So, really, Spanx started way before I cut the feet out of my pantyhose. You know, that's the sound bite everybody talks about, but I had been doing with through Wayne Dyer so much work on myself to prepare myself for that moment. And while I was selling fax machines door to door, I sat down one day. I was out of such frustration, like, this is not my life. Like, I literally had a moment. I pulled off the side of the road after cold calling 15 businesses that kicked me out. Did you cry? I cried all the time, and I'd, like, listen to tapes to recenter my energy and get me self motivated again. And some days, I'd go cold calling, and I wouldn't even tell my boss, but I wouldn't go through a single door that day. Like, I'd go sit in a park all day and then go back to the because we always had to report back at 5, but some days, I just couldn't even get the courage to walk through a door. Mhmm. You know? And then the next day, I'd be like, okay. I I can do this. But, you know, the the idea for Spanx and came to me because I was so specific. I woke up I mean, I pulled off the side of the road and I was like, I'm in the wrong movie. Like, this is not supposed to be my life. Cut. Call the director, the producer, like, this is not how is this this is not me. And I went home that night and I wrote down what I was good at. And in the column of what I was good at was sales. And I started asking myself, why? Why am I good at sales? What is it about sales? And I I deduced that I liked being able to offer something to somebody else that they needed or didn't know that they needed, but then helped them or changed their life or made their life better. And so I wrote down on a piece of paper that night, I want to invent a product that I can sell to millions of people that will make them feel good. I like how you use the word invent, and it seems like that's that's an important word for you, as because, like, you can say, with Spanx, what you created was a new you were almost like a fashion designer for underwear, but you elevated to the point where you could say, no. I invented something. Why do you think the word invent is important as opposed to other words that you could have used to describe yourself at that time? Well, for me, it was really important to also help me get people to pay attention to me. I had no money to advertise. I'd I started Spanx with $5,000 in my savings out of my apartment. And so, nVent sounded also more newsworthy than here's a designer, and I also got a patent on it. I wrote my own patent. I went to But even as you've said, patents can are not really enforceable. Like, if someone sued you or if you needed if someone stole your idea, you weren't gonna sue them. You didn't have money to sue them. So so you still but but but the word invent, the word patent pending, these are words that kind of, at least allowed you to get through the door. They were really sales techniques. They were very helpful for me to get attention for my product. And and I think people don't think of that an enough. Like, they think, okay. I've got the product. Shouldn't they listen? But it's there's all these things combined. There's personality. There's the words you use to describe yourself that are kind of like almost like brain words, like keywords that people will listen to. And then there's the product itself. Yeah. Maybe, you know, I paid such attention to the value of a word when I was doing stand up comedy. Mhmm. Because I would write comedy. I would write jokes or write story lines. And one night, I would get up and the audience would laugh hysterically. And if I changed one word in the delivery, it'd be like crickets. So So it's like you focus grouped language. I really did through comedy. I mean, I realized that the value of even punctuation and pausing and cadence of it is critical to how you connect with other people and how you can get them to feel connected to you or to pay attention. And so it's I think Mark Twain has a quote that I love that, you know, in language, the difference between one word could be the difference between being hit by lightning or a lightning bug. Interesting. And so I, you know, I discovered that. So with the stand up comedy, how that ended up translating to me with Spanx was I, you know, I used all the humor and the marketing, in the language through on the packaging and through Spanx. I mean, even naming the company Spanx was a real risk at the time. I mean, it's become a household name, but at the time that I decided to name it Spanx, it was super risky. I mean, people hung up on me. They thought I was prank calling them. A lot of department stores in the country wouldn't sell it because they found sense. See the x like you were saying it to them. Yeah. But but you wrote once or or said once how the k sound was very important to you, and you were thinking about like Kodak. It starts and ends with a k. Yeah. And so you wanted to have the k sound in there somehow. I did. I spent a year coming up with horrible names for Spanx. I mean, I'd write them on scrap pieces of paper in my car and in airports on rental car agreements, like I was just always thinking about it. And, then when I narrowed my thinking to Coca Cola and Kodak being the 2 most recognized names in the world at the time, and I was like, what do they have in common? You know, like just playing with them in my mind and they both had that strong k sound, And then it's this weird trade secret among comedians that the k sound makes your audience laugh. So I was like, okay. Well, there's something to this k sound. Let me let me, want my invention to have that in it. And almost instantly, the word Spanx came to me while I was sitting in that. Aspect. Yeah. The word Spanx came to me while I was sitting in the back. Yeah. I was It's a little edgy. It was edgy. It was, like, naughty. It made your mind water wander. It made everybody laugh. Yeah. But, you know, I always say spanks.com. You gotta spell it right or you get a real treat. Like, my my mom sent her a whole luncheon when I first started to the wrong website, and that wasn't pretty. So so, you know, what what I also admire is there was a certain patience. Like, you you first came up with the idea, and then there was 2 years before you The idea came to me. Yeah. Well, I put it out in the universe. So I wrote down on a piece of paper, I wanna come up with an idea or invent something that I can sell to millions of people. And then it didn't come for 2 years, but I didn't squander any idea. So the I a lot of people think I cut the feet on my pantyhose for, like, months. I did it one time, and I literally was like, oh, are you my idea? Maybe you're on my idea. I was so sure that I like the idea of asking, are you my idea? Oh, yeah. For For sure. I was like, you know, it's like that book that children's book. Are you my mother? You know, each page I don't know. I have all these small children, so I'm reading all these books. But every page I'm all set up. This little bird's like, are you my mother? He's saying it to like a bear and then a crane at a construction site. And I was like, are you my idea? But I I was I was gonna find out no matter what. I had no idea when I started pursuing footless pantyhose as an undergarment option if that was the idea. But the genesis for Spanx, once it came to me, was I just wanted to create the perfect canvas under clothes. So I look at clothing. I was a woman, and I spent money on these clothes. I look at the clothing as the paint and Spanx as the canvas. Like, if you don't have the right canvas, it affects the painting. And all the undergarments that were out there in the world left bulges or lines or a panty line or, you know, just didn't look great. And I'm like, I just want some invisible kind of canvas that I can hardly feel underneath my clothes that's super thin and lightweight that makes my clothes look amazing on. And But but, like so if if I had been you at that point, I would think to myself, there's 4,000,000,000 women in this planet wearing undergarments. Why am I gonna come up with something? I can't tell you how many times I thought that. Like, every other day, I'd have this whole mental dialogue, and I'd be like, you know, what what who am I? I sell fax machines. I'm from Clearwater, Florida. I've never taken a business cla*s. Why would I be the one to think of this and do something about it? And then, you know, then I'd have another conversation with myself or a week would go by and I'd be like, that's right. I'm not gonna do this. And then there'd be this other feeling that would come over me and I'd say, but what if you are? Like, why not? Like, pursue it. And my life was so bad at the time that I often say like, if you're in a place in your life right now that's super bad, be really grateful because, you know, I find it when things are the hardest is when you feel the most inspired to make change or when things are really bad. So I was selling fax machines door to door. I was dating the wrong guy. I was, like, not in a good place in my life at all, feeling completely like I was in the wrong movie, and that, it you know, if things if it hadn't been that bad, I don't know if I would have felt so compelled to take some sort of radical action for myself. And And it and it wasn't quite radical in the sense that you still gave yourself time. Like, a lot of people kind of come up with an idea, and they say, okay. I have the idea. Now give me money, and I'll quit my job, and I'll just do it. And you kind of incrementally just I I I could imagine now from what you're saying, you would probably be frustrated with one area of your life and say, okay. Well, I'm gonna just make some incremental progress on this new idea I have that's unnamed. Like, what would be some of the kind of small tiny things you would do to advance yourself forward? This is over a 2 year period. Yeah. I never quit my job selling fax machines. I worked Just really important to know. Yeah. I worked on Spanx, at night and on the weekends for 2 solid years. And, I took time off of work. I took a week off of work of vacation time to actually go in person to manufacturers that had all been telling me no over the phone and cold called them to try to get them to help me make this idea. But it is really important to to know that I didn't just say, oh my god. I have this idea, and I quit. I tried to really be calculating on how I could use the money, and I needed my health benefits with my job for as long as I possibly could before I took the leap. And so so, again, I think part of your kind of mutant superpower is that you're able you you kind of, on the one hand, attach yourself to this higher vision of empowering women, and then on the other hand, you're able to infect others with the excitement you had for this product. So when did you start to really see how other people would be infected with the enthusiasm for this product? Well, I find that so important. I mean, I didn't have the most experience in the room. I didn't certainly didn't have the most money in the room and but I I cared the most. So those things that that are commonly listed as as excuses why people don't try things, you right off the bat realize you didn't have them? No. I mean I mean, I'd never taken a business cla*s. I'd never worked in fashion or retail. I grew up on a beach in Clearwater where everyone wore t shirts and cut off shorts year round. I, you know, I mean, yes. I I and and I'm going against a multibillion dollar industry that are filled with experts that all day long think of what should be next. And so but I think the reason why Spanx is still around now is because the one thing that I had that they didn't is I cared the most, and that passion is so important. So if you've got an idea or you're trying to mobilize other people to help you, you have got to be extremely passionate and have energy when you're talking to them and smile and just be infectious in how enthusiastic you are. And so, for example, when I cold called all these manufacturing plants in North Carolina, they all sent me away. They're like, no. Thank you. No. Thank you. Not interested. And it was a couple weeks later that one mill owner in Charlotte, North Carolina called me, and he said, quote, Sarah, I've decided to help make your crazy idea. And when I asked him why he had the change of heart, he said, I have 3 daughters. And the 3 daughters had told him, dad, this is actually a good idea. You should do it, but what caused him to even share it with his daughters at the dinner table was my passion. He said, I just couldn't he's like, I don't think this is a good idea. He's like, I gotta be honest, and I'm not sure, you know, what, if anything, this is gonna do. But he said your enthusiasm and your passion for it is what stuck with me after you left. And it seems like you had to have the passion on several layers. Like, there's the layer of this is what the product is. There's a layer of there's the higher layer of this is gonna empower women, then there's all these things that will make women feel it'll solve all these different problems for women along the way. And you kinda have to be passionate along each layer to to really infect someone else. There has to be multiple reasons. Yeah. I mean, I used to practice how I would say things, and I would try to take any doubt language out of my delivery. So if I would hear myself say I think it's gonna be great, I would change it to I know. And, you know, I just believe wholeheartedly that if you show any doubt in yourself, then the other person's certainly gonna have it. So your best chance or your best foot forward is to show zero doubt, even if inside you're like, I'm I'm scared and I'm not sure. Like, I know this is I mean, when I I cold call Neiman Marcus, so I called them on the phone and I said, I'm Sarah. I invented a product. You know, give me 10 minutes of your time and I'll fly to Dallas. And, you know, she she just kinda said, well, if you're willing to fly here, I'll give you 10 minutes. But in those 30 seconds that I had with her, the first thing I said was, I'm Sarah. I invented a product that is going to change the way all of your customers wear clothes, and they won't be able to live without this. You know? And she's like, what? What is this? And then she, of course, she says, well, mail it to me. And I'm like, no. I'm not gonna mail it to you. Because she probably gets those calls every day. Yeah. I was like, no. I'm not gonna mail it to you. I mean, I knew from cold calling that my best shot was in person. And she's like, well, you know, I really need you to just mail it to me, and I'll circle back up with you. And I said, no. It's an invention. I'm very protective of it, and I need to be there in person to show you. It's only gonna take 10 minutes. Please give me those 10 minutes. You look disappointed. I like how you say it's an invention as if that implies somehow she has to see it in person. Yeah. Exactly. It doesn't mean that at all, but you kind of say, well, it's an invention. You have to see this in person. And then and then what happened is I show up, and she's, like, first of all, impeccably dressed. This woman is like Neiman Marcus headquarters in Dallas, please. Her pen matched her belt that matched her shoes. I'm sort of disheveled. I come in, you know, I've got my lucky red backpack from college with me as my presentation bag, and my friends begged me not to bring it. They're like, Sarah, do not go to the Neiman Marcus headquarters with that red backpack. They're like, buy a Prada bag. Return it the next day if you need to, but don't show up with that bag. And I'm like, but it's good luck. And I literally had this red backpack with a ziplock bag of the prototype in it from the mill and a color copy of the packaging that my friend and I had created on her computer. She had just finished graphic design school. And so that was my presentation, and 15 5 minutes into it, I'm totally losing her. I mean and that's when I just stopped and leaned in and said, you know what? You need to come to the bathroom with me. And she was like, what? Excuse me? I'm like, please, I know it's a weird request, but will you come to the bathroom with me? I'm gonna show you what my product can do in and out of clothes. And she followed me down the hall, and I went in the stall with and without Spanx on with these cream pants. And she took one look at it and goes, it's brilliant. I get it, and And I'm gonna try it in 7 stores and see how it goes. So so, a, you literally had skin in the game as they say. And that's the way to do things. You have to get skin in the game. You can't be like every other presentation. You have to put yourself into it. Yeah. But, like, all my training of being okay with being embarrassed, it what is mission critical in creating something like this. Like, I I mean, it's super embarrassing to ask someone and, you know, what are they gonna think of me asking them to come to the bathroom, but I was gonna go there. You know? Also this kind of, like, bonding technique where you asked her to do a favor for you. Hey. Come to the bathroom with me. And so she felt her brain starts to feel like, oh, I'm the type of person who will go to the bathroom with Sarah. So it kinda makes her more likely to say yes later on. This is kind of a cognitive bias we have. Well, I I mean, I was thrilled. And then, you know But but but I just wanna ask about that too. So she ordered for 7 stores Which was unbelievable. Right. Like, you probably were ready to go. That I was calling on. And so so you also have this, I know I noticed about your story, you have this ready, fire, aim mentality where you you get ready. You're all ready to go. Now you have to fire before you have to aim. So so you had to kind of fulfill this order before you even were ready to Yeah. Fulfill orders. No. I you know, throughout Spanx, all I was focused on is the quality of the product. I wanna know that I have the best product in the world, like, for what it's doing and then selling it. And I didn't think of anything else. So you you kinda felt smaller problems would solve themselves if the bigger problems got solved. Well, I just knew, like, it doesn't matter how much money I've raised for marketing or my marketing plan. I just need to I'm I'm, like, such a scrappy salesperson at heart. You cannot take the hustle out of me. I can't help it. I just wanted to go and start selling this thing, and I'm like, everything else, I'll figure it out if I start selling it. I didn't have a back end setup. I had no distribution model setup. I had no marketing plan. I had nothing. So I'm in my apartment. You know, I just left my job selling fax machines. Actually, I hadn't quit my job. I landed Neiman Marcus and Saks Fifth Avenue before I quit Denka. Very important point. Entrepreneurs mitigate risk. They don't take risks. So you took a risk, yes, by going to Neiman Marcus Yes. But you still had your health insurance paid. Yep. So anyway, I get this amazing opportunity. She says I'm gonna put it in 7 stores. And I like to say this for a second because what you don't know can be your greatest asset if you let it. So if you're sitting there right now in your life and you're like, have an idea or you you imagine a different life for yourself, but you're like, but I didn't go to school for it, or I don't have any contacts in this, or I don't have money to do this. You know, those things, if you just allow them to, could be what is your competitive edge. It could be what gives you the opportunity to do something amazing. If you don't know how it's supposed to be done, then it's pretty likely you're gonna do it different. But let me ask, like, okay. I'll throw some other excuses at you. I'm too old. I'm too old to be, a stand up comedian right now. The guy who started Kentucky Fried Chicken was 60. Yeah. He started it. I mean, too old is like a joke. You're not too old. I would just I mean, you're just not. So but but just to get back to that. So for example, I for this is a perfect example of not knowing how it's supposed to be done working in your favor. I land Neiman Marcus. You know, months go by, all these people in the industry start coming up to me and going, Sarah, how in the world did you land Neiman Marcus? And I would literally look at them and I'd go, I called them. And they would just stare at me. There'd be this really weird awkward moment. I go, why? What do you do? They're like, well, we go to trade shows. Like, we've been going for 6, 7, 8 years. We set up our booth. Every year, we're hoping the Neiman Marcus Bayer comes by our booth or takes an order from us. And I'm looking at them. I didn't even know there were trade shows. But how did you get the buyer on the phone? I kept calling like I did when I sold fax machines until she picked up. So so you would call and I'd call and call and call. I get her message, and I would not leave a message. And then one day, it took, like, maybe a week of calling sporadically throughout the day every day, she picked up. What if, like, a secretary said, oh, she typically doesn't take any calls. You'll have to meet her in a trade show. What would you have done then? That's a little bit trickier. You really have to then win over the gatekeeper. So, you know, just give the pitch to the gatekeeper that this is a call that's really important, that's gonna change, you know, the way women wear clothes and that Diane would really appreciate being able to speak to me. That's one approach. Sometimes I would send the gatekeeper something. Like, some of the places I was trying to get into, I'd mail one shoe, and it would just have a note that say I'm trying to get my foot in the door. So, like, just quirky weird things that kinda things. Yeah. Funny things. But, you know, I land these 7 stores. I have no marketing budget. I am a team of basically 1 in my apartment. I don't know how to pack and ship. I've semi trucks pulling up all of a sudden to my apartment with boxes of Spanx because I am the fulfillment center. I mean, the manufacturer wouldn't fulfill for me. So all of a sudden, all this stuff started happening, and it was and then I didn't have crotches. Very important to have a crotch. So so I when I got landed Neiman Marcus, I called Sam Kaplan, the guy that owned the mill, and I'm like, Sam, Sam, it's Sarah. I landed Neiman Marcus, and I mean, total silence. He's like, what? I go, Sam, I landed Neiman Marcus. I need more Spanx. And he's like, Sarah, don't take this the wrong way, but I thought you were gonna give these away as, like, holiday gifts for the next 3 years. Like, what do you mean Neiman Marcus wants it? Because he was still didn't think it was a good idea. So I said, yes. I need him. He goes, great. I'll patch you through to Ted who was who I've been working with in the back of the mill, like, all the time on the prototype, and he was super southern and had this super thick accent. And it's like, it was I have so many funny stories about that, but I got patched through to Ted and Ted's like, well, that's great, but what you can do about the crotches? I was like, what are you talking about, Ted? Don't they come with crotches? Like, I just landed Neiman Marcus. He's like, well, we only got 2 crotch machines, and they're being used by somebody else. I'm like, what? I just landed Neiman Marcus, and I have no crotches? Like and I I remember What does it mean to not have a crotch? I still don't understand. Yeah. Like, there's no crotch in the garment. Like, that's a separate piece that needed to be sent to the mill and, like, put in. It's a little thicker somehow or I don't understand. It's a cotton crotch. Okay. Women listening will know the importance of this. So anyway, I so I I remember thinking, I don't know where to go for a crotch. Like, where do I look for a crotch? I actually looked in the yellow pages under crotch. Under crotch. And it's not there. And then I found out that there's a fancy word for crotch, which is gusset. And so that helped my search a little bit, and then I had, like, crotches being FedExed from all over the world to my apartment. And my roommate at the time would come home from she was a teacher, and she'd be like, you got another crotch in the mail. And thankfully, just out of luck, I found a crotch company that would happen to be in Atlanta, Georgia, like, 30 minutes up the interstate from where I was. And the guy by the name of Gene Bobo saved the day and provided me the crotches I needed to deliver the Neiman Marcus order. So Sam would create the pantyhose, send them to you, and then this guy would sew the crotch in. Yeah. And you had none of this prepared, like, in advance of it. That it came with the crotch because I've been working with that. Time did Neiman Marcus give you to kind of fulfill the order? I believe they wanted it in 2 weeks, and I think I ended up delivering it in 3. Okay. Yeah. But then, you know, I'm up all night packing and shipping and trying to figure out how to make the deliveries specific to how Niemann wants it. I had to go stand in office depot and learn about a bill of lading and a manifesto. And I remember one day, I was working 24 hours, 7 days a week, which you have to do with this for many, many years, but this was early on in my journey, and I just started crying in the aisle of Office Depot. I just literally sat there and wept, and this man was, like, buying folders or something. He turned, he's like, honey, are you okay? And I was like, what is a bill of lading? I'm like he's like, let me go get someone's in. What is it? I I still don't even really know. It's something you have to attach to the outside of boxes that have to go to Neiman's and Nordstrom and Bloomingdale's. Like, I really don't even know. I'll tell you this, that as an entrepreneur, you know this, you learn very quickly what you're good at, what you're not good at, and as soon as you can afford to hire your weaknesses. And, usually, your weaknesses are what you don't enjoy. And as an entrepreneur, you don't have the money to your every department. I was the before and after butt model. I literally took a picture. My friend took a picture of me in and out of the pant the Spanx with the pants on. I went to Kinko's laminated and stood in department stores, and that was my collateral. My own butt showing it looked not so great and then much better. And I was also the packer and shipper, and I was trying to figure out you know, I was cold calling all of these big accounts. And so very quickly, I was like, oh, I cannot be in the production side of it. So even though you had this sense that, okay, if I solve the big problem, I e sales Just sell it. The the smaller problems will take care of themselves, and yet it's still you they're still frustrating. You have to get through the frustrations of solving the smaller problems at least initially. Yeah. I mean, I went about it in such a different way. I read about and learn about all these people that, you know, raise so much money before they've even really made the first sale. Like, they have and I'm, you know, I just I guess I just didn't do that. A, I didn't really understand the whole VC thing, or I literally was so clueless. I didn't I didn't even I didn't have any contacts. I didn't know how any of that worked anyway. But I was like, you just make it and you make what you can afford and you sell what you can afford and then use that money to buy more. And then when you sell that, you use that money to buy more. And then just that's just been what I've done, and I still own a 100% of Spanx. It's been 16 years. I started it with the 5 grand from selling fax machines door to door. When did you quit the job for selling fax machines? After I had landed Neiman Marcus and Saks Fifth Avenue in October 14th 2000, and I sent a gift basket of my product to Oprah. And I found out that Oprah chose the product as her favorite product of the year on that Oprah favorite thing show 3 weeks after I officially quit my job. So her favorite thing shows in November. I quit my job on October 14th, and it was wild. So that's another example though of Ready, Fire, Aim. Like, Oprah wanted to film your office, and you didn't have an office. Yeah. So but you said yes, of course. So you you the ready was, you know, and the fire was you saying yes, and then you had to kinda find the office. Like, most people would say, no. I don't have an office. But No. Yeah. You don't say no to Oprah? No. No. No. No. Yeah. It was they showed up with all these fancy clipboards and lighting and a whole crew to my apartment in Atlanta. And they said, Sarah, we decided on the plane, we wanna film you in your headquarters. And I was like, you're here. Headquarters worldwide. I was like, you're here. They kinda looked at each other. They went, oh, And then they said, and we wanna film you having a staff meeting. And I was like, really? Hold on a minute. And I called all I called Connie that I'd met at Mailboxes, etcetera and a few friends and said, can you please leave your jobs immediately and come to my apartment and look like you work for me? And that we sat in a circle on the floor, and that was my staff meeting for the Oprah Winfrey Show. So just and that that's, you also, they said when they called, they said, you have a website. Right? Because we can't choose you if you don't have a website. I didn't have a website, and I was yes. When is the air date? Yes. I have a website. And then I was like, ah. How did you put together did you have ecommerce on the website once you put it together? My boyfriend at the time, who was a health care consultant, helped me figure it out. And there was a a a company out there called bigstep.com when they were giving the templates and the back end for websites, and you would just I just scanned in a color copy of the packaging, and that was my home page. And then I paid $18 a month for the merch account, the merchandising, you know, the, the credit card fee. And that was my website for 2 years for Spanx. I kept it that. So my entire website cost me $18 a month for 2 years, and it was just the color copy of the packaging and then a buy button. And I put some images of photographs I took of my friends in the product. So speeding ahead now, I wanna get to the ballet art project because there's so many parallels between this and Spanx and creativity and your global vision of how you live your life. There's a book, The Belly Art Project, which you put together. It's it's photographs of you, of course, and many people you know who have painted, these amazing paintings on their bellies and then took photographs of themselves in, like, these beautiful situations. I just wanted to describe the the very first photo is of you. You painted a basketball on your belly, and then you're on a court in a basketball game. And it honestly looks to me like you're kind of defending the basketball against all these players, and that's your belly with the basketball painted on it. So so how did the whole thing you know, how'd you come up with this idea? So the ballet art project came to me at 3 in the morning, 3 days before I delivered my son. I literally woke up from a dead sleep and thought, my god. My body is incredible. Like, what a woman's body can do, and I saw this belly and the form my body was in. And I thought, it may never be in the state again. Like, in 3 days, I'm delivering my son. And, so what can I do with it? And I saw it as a canvas, like my belly as this beautiful canvas. And I literally wanted to turn my belly into objects. So I so I wrote down on a piece of paper, watermelon, beach ball, basketball, mister potato head, and went back to bed. And I woke up the next morning, I stared at the piece of paper, and I'm like, really? I'm like, really? Am I gonna do this? And then, I called a friend and said, could you come over and paint my belly these things? And he got his friend who was a photographer, and we ran around Atlanta. And I painted a watermelon on my belly, and I literally went into the grocery store and bellied up to the watermelon display and put my belly on top of all the other watermelons. And then the beach That photograph's in the book? Yeah. And then the beach ball, I went to, like, a public pool with families in Atlanta and walked right through the whole complex and got up on the diving board and sat there with my belly as a beach ball. And it was just fun and playful, and my idea was to give these pictures to my husband as a gift when my child was born, our child was born. And I also thought it was a really cool way to capture it for my child too. You know, when they're older instead of just here's mommy pregnant. It's like, you were the basketball or you were the what you're the watermelon in there. And so, and then when I gave it to him, he just said, Sarah, you gotta do more with this idea. It's really cool. It's super creative. The pictures are unreal. And, it sat in my drawer for a couple years, and then I sort sort of started getting up the courage to ask other women if they would do it. And Did anyone say no to you? Yes. Some women said no for different reasons. They just weren't comfortable with it or schedule or, you know, just different reasons, but I would say 98% of the women I approached said yes. And one of the first people I approached was Kate Winslet, and she said, you know, absolutely. I'd love to do this. And they all knew it was for a good cause. I was giving a 100% of the proceeds to help mothers in need. So it wasn't a book I was trying to make any money off of myself. I just thought of it as a a a platform and a way to celebrate women's bodies in a in a time where we're pregnant and and see the kind of whimsy and fun and humor in our changing bodies. I know pregnancy is beautiful, but I kept getting these, like, gifts for goddess type photoshoots, and I never really felt like a goddess when I was pregnant. I felt more like a Cirque du Soleil character. Like, I was like, this is funny, and I'd look at my body and go, oh my god, and just start cracking up and, like, this is so I just sort of saw it more through a humorous lens. And then I started writing objects down at every traffic light I'd sit at again in the car, all my ideas. I mean, the word spanks came to me in a car and the ideas for belly art. And then I collected this whole long list, and I would approach women that I didn't know or that I did know. I mean, I literally stalked women at airports, other people's weddings, and nail salons. I'm like, hi. The source of all beauty women. Weird. I promise. But your belly's amazing, and here's what I'm doing. And, you know, I'd show them my pictures. I always find that when you're trying to get people involved in something, showing your self or being a part of it or somehow making yourself as vulnerable in a sense is a really helpful tool. So the fact that I'd already done it, I'm like, here I am as a watermelon, you know, or here. They were like, oh, okay. So, you know, with Spanx, I put my own butt on the line literally. I mean, taking a photograph of my own butt before and after and being willing to show it not looking perfect in the before. I mean, you know, you got a panty line. You might have some cellulite, whatever. And and then the women would look at it, and I go, and this is me. You know? And then you could see their whole body language change, and then it just became like this girlfriend to girlfriend moment. Like, that's you. Well, you know, you look great. I would never think that to you. And I'm like, girl you know, like, we all have this. It's like we're looking for the right canvas under our clothes. So, anyway, on the the belly art and and seven and a half years later, over a 100 women in the book, it's a beautiful artistic coffee table book, but it's creative. Like a great gift to give women who are pregnant. It's a great gift to give as shower gifts. There's also a belly painting kit. All of the proceeds go to help moms. So I just thought it it's like a really I I'm just very proud of it, and I think it's very artistically beautiful. And I mean, these many of the women you asked really got into it. Like, you mentioned, Kate Winslet. She did a bunch of photographs in there. I think she did the eyeballs one with a friend of hers. And then it's like 2 eye like, both bellies are each of an eye, and then there's like a mustache in between. Yeah. We made that face. We paper mache that nose and created those huge glasses out of foam core and traveled with a paper machine nose to England because the photo shoot was in England. So he made the nose in Atlanta and then flew there. But, I mean, this whole project was done with, like, super scrappy. My childhood friend, Chelsea, was between jobs. She's like, Sarah, I'll I'll do this. I'll take this on. I mean, she's got the most hysterical stories on the shoots I couldn't be at. She's flying around. She's trying to hand make props and find props, and, you know, and the women were all so amazing. Half of them are famous, but half of them aren't. You know? And we got a military mom in there that was a Blackhawk pilot. We had stay at home moms. Oh, yeah. She had the helmet? Yeah. She had the Blackhawk helmet on her belly. So yeah. But, so check it out. I mean and it's all going to help every mother counts. And I joined Instagram. So I gotta tell you, one of my fears was social media. I've never been on social media. And 3 months ago when I launched the belly art project, my team had kept talking to me about it and I was really genuinely scared. And, you know, I was like, alright, I'm gonna face this fear, but I also wanna do it because it's the right time to promote this project and to spread the word about this book And I've been on Instagram for 3 months, so please follow me I'm at Sara Blakely Please be my friend I am have to say I'm loving it so much. I my my team was like, please do this. Please do this, Sara. You know? And I was like, no. No. No. No. No. And now they're I think they're looking at each other like she hasn't worked since, basically. And, well, people also should tag you and hashtag the belly art project and put their own photos up on your progress. Yes. We have, all these amazing pregnant women that have painted their own bellies and are posting the pictures, and it's creating quite a movement. It's awesome. So so, again, though, it's a way of looking at some very common thing and saying, oh, there's a different use of this. And you've used the can word canvas now to describe women's undergarments and women's clothes and now a pregnant, belly. And, again, in in both cases, you're using it to there's this idea of empowering women, so this is overriding vision. But, and that fuels your infectiousness, I'm sure, when you're asking people to to do this for you. But, like, what other things could potentially be canvases in our life? I'm just asking this out of the blue. You might not have an answer. I mean, anything. I mean, for for me, I as far as products go, I look at everything, and and I like to ask why. So I could look at this table sitting between us, and I'm like, who invented the table? And how interesting? And who was the first person who did that? And what were they thinking? And is the table is that the right way it should still be created? Like, when's the last time tables changed, or is there a better way? Or, you know, I I find things really interesting. Like, the men's undershirt is part of why I went into men's for Spanx. I mean, there was no big, you know, business plan or any kind of researching the market opportunity. I don't operate like that. I operate very much from gut and very much from product. Like, if I can create a product that's gonna change lives or make your life better or be a better option, that's where I get my energy, and then I let the rest work itself out. But the men's undershirt has been the same since 1918. It was invented in 1918, and literally no one's paid any attention to it since. So, like, 6 or 7 years ago, I started playing with that. Like, why why do some things evolve so rapidly and some things you look at it and you're like, man, that is that is really the same. Why why hasn't that? Like, for example, I broke my leg last year snow skiing, and I was like fascinated by crutches. I was like, man, this is crazy. I've got to invent a better crutch. The crutch hasn't really changed since like 1500. The only thing that's different is now it's metal and not wood, you know, but it's highly dysfunctional and there's gotta be a better way. So so is this a an exercise? Do you find yourself with every product, like, always asking these questions? Yeah. My mind just wanders to that. I'm just always thinking about that. And, you know, like the other day, I was fascinated about the guy who invented gum. I didn't read anything about him. I was just sitting there on a plane thinking about it. I'm like, wow. Because I brought a concept to market that didn't already exist and I had to explain what it was. You know, took all this sort of, but why do I need footless pantyhose? And I'm like, it's about the butt. Like, it's the canvas. So I I like to think of other people who've done that journey. And when I think about the guy with gum, like, can you imagine being the one to try to promote gum? Like, I could just imagine people going, well, what is it? Well, it's this wad. Like, well, what am I supposed to do? Just chew it. Well And not swallow it. And don't swallow it. Like, I just try I try to go through, like, my mind of the sales pitch for that guy, like, creating this whole item that became part of society. Like, think of that. And the original gum had no flavor either. So it's like, just chew this thing. Do it have sugar? I don't know. I don't know. So you you should do a book on, like, all these kind of inventions. Weird things that Have you have you ever thought of doing something on creativity? Because, obviously, that's such a big part of your life. I have so many other ideas that I'm in the process of pursuing and doing. Like what? Tell me tell me what. I don't talk about them until they're out. Like, I'm really superstitious that way. Like, with Spanx, I didn't tell anybody my idea for, one whole year. I told patent attorneys, and I told manufacturers, people that could help me move it forward, but I didn't share the idea with a friend or family member. Was this to buffer yourself against potential criticism? I think so. Without knowing it, I was, I I just wasn't looking for validation. Like and this is what's interesting. When we have ideas, they're the most vulnerable in their infancy. Like, the moment you have an idea is when it's it's most vulnerable. And that's when, as humans, we wanna turn to our right or left, tell our friend, our coworker, our husband, our wife. And that's when out of love and concern, you people will say things that I think stop and kill most ideas right on spot. So I I just didn't I didn't do it. And what happened is I didn't invite ego into the process. So I spent all my time I didn't wanna spend my time explaining it and defending it. I wanted to spend my time pursuing it. And by not telling people so all my friends and family knew is Sarah's working on some crazy idea. She won't tell anybody what it is. And for 1 year, nights, weekends, I'm like telling my friends, no. I can't go out with you or on the weekend. I'm like, no. I'm sorry. I can't go to that party or I would just be in the library research researching things or writing my own patent or driving to North Carolina to meet with Ted and Sam. And then it was about a year into it, and I just intuitively felt like now's the right time. Like, I'll share with them what I'm working on. And I think it was that I knew I had invested enough of my own self into this path that no matter what came at me, I wouldn't have stopped it. And so I literally started telling my friends and family what it was, and their reaction was hysterical. I mean, they're like, what? You're doing what? You know? And I'd hear, well, honey, if it's such a great idea, why doesn't it already exist? And then I'd hear, well, sweetie, even if it is a good idea, you're gonna spend your savings on this, and the big guys will just knock you out of the water in 6 months. They'll just copy you, and then you'll have no savings. Did anyone try to knock you out of the park? All everybody. I mean, everybody. So what I tell people is, you know, I was pretty nervous and paranoid about my idea during the development stage. Don't be because nobody's really interested in taking your idea and copying it until it's out in the marketplace and viable and working. So, I mean, I'd had people sign nondisclosure agreements when they would, but if they didn't, you know, what what am I gonna do? I still needed them to try to help me. And but, yeah, the telling friends and family came later. And I think that if I had the idea, cut the feet out of my pantyhose, put it on that night, went to the party, and woke up the next day and told my friends and family, I might still be selling fax machines. Well, Sara Blakely, founder of Spanx, and and even just as importantly, the Belly Art Project, which is you know, raises money for women in childbirth and going through all sorts of childbirth issues, plus an amazing work of art. Like, you should kind of send them on display in in museums. The the photographs are beautiful. Thank you so much for for coming on on my show. By the way, I was very persistent. You you probably don't even know the ways in which I was persistent to get you on this podcast. So but also respectful. Yeah. I never pushed in some way that was inappropriate. Well, I so appreciate being on your show and especially knowing what you you gave up to be experiencing today to have this time with me. Thank you so much. And I wanna say also that for all your listeners, I wanna give them 20% off of anything on spanks.com. And in order to do that, they just need to email, try me at spanks. They don't have to even put anything in the subject. You could put, you know, James or anything in there, but just email right now. Try me at Spanx, and an email will come right back to you with a code, and that code will be your personal code to buy anything you want with 20% off. And we have the most amazing leggings. We have a cult following for our leggings. Do you have t shirts yet? We have t shirts. We have activewear. We have amazing comfortable bras. Our bra the bra that I that we invented several years ago, has, it's the world's most comfortable bra. Like, we named it bra hallelujah because every woman who put it on in the prototype stage was, like, singing. So we're like, bra hallelujah. That's the name of this bra. And the back and straps are made out of all hosiery, and the front are regular bra cups, but you don't feel it on your body at all, and it's great. So there's all these different things that Spanx has created law far beyond just the canvas undergarment that makes a difference in your clothes. So check us out. Well, I'm gonna definitely do it. And Instagram, please. Right? Yeah. Please be my friend on Instagram. And post a photo of yourself praying. But not only by the way, men aren't excluded. Warren Buffett's in your book. He, painted on his belly. He's the only guy in the book. He's the surprise person, but he's such a women champion. And I just, as a fluke, you know, sat next to him at an event, and he asked me what I was up to when I pulled out my phone and showed him the pictures, and he laughed so hard and said, well, I wanna be in the book. I was like, was he serious? Was this a joke? So about a year later, I emailed him. I'm like, I have no idea if you were serious or not, but I'd love for you to be in the book. And I gave him 3 or 4 options to choose from, And he shot me back an email and said, I'll take the yo yo. Count me in. Oh, that's funny. Like, what? Oh my god. This is amazing. And, like, 4 days later, I was flying to Omaha to paint a yo yo on Warren Buffett's belly. Did you paint it? No. I had a belly painter. Yeah. Because in one in one photo, I just wanna mention Ron Wood, the Rolling Stones guy painted on his wife. Yeah. Because he's an amazing artist. Ron Wood is an amazing artist. And I felt that was a good way for them to bond while she was pregnant. Yeah. So it was a nice relationship thing. Yeah. Absolutely. And then, you know, also on, my Instagram, I want to also say if you put in the comments, try me, then I'll know that you were listening. Hashtag try me. Yeah. If you put that in the comments, then I'm gonna choose 10 of your listeners to just send leggings to them. Or if they're a guy, a great Spanx garment for free to them. Well, thanks again, Sarah. I can see your salesmanship and creativity at work as the seconds go here. So, thanks again for coming on the show. For having me. I really appreciate it. And my husband loves being on your show. He was I didn't mention him during the podcast, but the Jesse Itzler podcast was really fantastic. Just I'll ask you now. What was it like living that month when Seal was living in your house? Yeah, man. Because so, Jesse, you were living with the Seal. Seal moved into your house so he could train Jesse for 30 days, and you had to deal with it. Yeah. It was wild. You know, I I love different experiences, so I was open to it. I was like, okay. And, it was just 2 worlds colliding that couldn't have been more different. I mean, here's a Navy SEAL who's been living out of a backpack for decades, and he moved into our New York apartment, you know, on Central Park. And we have a newborn son, and it was just like, why? And there was just so much to learn from. It was fascinating. But, you know, so my husband's a serial entrepreneur as well, and he loved being on your show. I was saying not many people really strike him, and you did. And he talks about you a lot. And most people my husband's striking other people because he's such a quirky, out of the box, kind of larger than life sort of guy, but he really liked meeting you. He kept saying, he's only got, like, 4 possessions. He lives in Airbnbs, and I knew where it was going. I'm, like, looking at him like, are you about to ask me to do this? Like, is our family gonna I kinda sense that he wanted to. He does. So, you know, I'm kinda bracing myself for that. Alright. Well, maybe I'll have you both on the next podcast when you're living in, like, a trailer or something. With 4 possessions. And you said one of your 4 is Spanx. Right? Well, I lie I lied, but I know. Maybe after the try me, I'll, I'll get, like, an an undershirt. I have the same undershirt, so I'll get the undershirt, more comfortable. More comfortable. Add that. Add a 5th possession. Yes, ma'am. Make it Spanx. What do you what I usually do is I count an outfit as like, I have 2 outfits. So and that contains everything. Because I can't count, like, each sock as a separate possession and and so on. So the undershirt is wonderful and how simple. Frees your brain up to way more important things. It is. Since I've met Jesse, I've lived in, like, you know, 20 different places. So Wow. But it does allow me to not it's like you said, my weaknesses are basically living a normal life. So this is a way for me to kind of just experience lots of different places and focus on my creativity and the things I wanna do. Oh, wow. So great. So, again, thanks so much, Sarah. Thank you.