Transcript
In the Consult, we discuss cases that are sexually violent in nature. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to the Consult. I'm Julia Cowley, retired FBI agent and profiler. And I'm joined by my colleagues Angela Sarsour, Susan Kasler, Drew and Bob Drew, who are also retired FBI profilers. This episode is part two of our coverage of the murder of Diane Zaleski, who was discovered deceased in her home in Union Township, New Jersey, on November 18th, 2010. Joining us again today is one of the lead investigators on this case Lieutenant Michael Monaco of the Union County Prosecutor's Office. One of the things I want to reiterate is that Lieutenant Pinocchio has a solid rate of almost 80 percent, which is extraordinary. And I think after you listen to our coverage of this investigation, you will see why that is. Anyway, once again, thank you to Lieutenant Pinocchio for joining us. At this point. This is everything that you knew when you guys came to the behavioral analysis unit, and so this is all the information that you gave to us. So here's where we're at at this point in time, you have done a complete. Investigation, it has been very thorough. All of our questions were answered, all the questions that we asked were answered because you had already covered it in your investigation. So now you've come to us kind of like, we don't know where to go from here. It's about Slater. Yeah. Seven months later, it was, well, she was killed in November of 2010 and were in July of 2011. So the prosecutor, I believe my partner put together a discovery packet for your unit and they sent it down there. And I think they came down here. I I was not available at the time when they went down there and you came to your conclusions of who this person may be and you guys were 100 percent correct. It was amazing. And I told my family members all the time, I'm like, I can't believe they were so accurate in their identification that I've done a physical plant there. But personality wise of this individual was amazing. Well, let's talk a little bit about what we thought at the time. I'll let Susan start out because I know what I find is kind of funny. It's just a little bit of a back story here. Do I remember this consultation, Mike? And I was telling you about this because Bob and I had disagreed about something. And in this particular consultation, and I mean, at the time, I was thinking, how can he not see it my way? And I'm sure he was thinking the same way. But it, well, we'll sort that out as we go through this. But you know, generally, what? What were you thinking, Susan? Well, there were several things that we discussed with regards to this individual. As we kind of mentioned, as we've been discussing number one, that he seemed to be very comfortable in the home, was comfortable with not being found out immediately. So was able to spend for someone who's just killed someone an extraordinary amount of time in the home. So had he been in the home before? Was he comfortable with the neighborhood? Was he comfortable with her schedule? Did he know that she lived alone and that no one else would be, you know, coming home later that evening, whatever? He obviously had some familiarity enough to be very comfortable. It's clearly very evidence conscious. So there was some concern there about possibly in the evidence coming back to him. Along with that, though, we talked about he was trying to cover up the evidence in the home. But the other thing he did, the fact that it like he took a shower wherever he was going after he left the home one, he didn't want to bring any kind of attention to himself. He didn't want anybody else to to see him if he left the home. He didn't want to leave with any kind of stains on his clothing or anything else. Also is evidence conscious, as he seemed to be. He also, if if he'd been, that evidence kind of knew this had been kind of preplanned like his, he was going to walk in the door and killer. There were no gloves. He didn't bring anything with him. He seemed to use anything that was available to him in the home as opposed to bringing something with them. So in that regard, had he planned possibly on things going one way and then when they didn't, then they went bad and very quickly, possibly as we discussed before, maybe she's asking him to leave. He doesn't want to leave and then things go very poorly from there. Same thing. You know, you think he was he was a little bit more savvy with a computer. But again, if he was concerned about that or any kind of an imprint, then he could have, you know, he could have considered taking a hard drive with him or something like that. But again, is he worrying about somebody in the neighborhood seeing him and possibly being able to identify him again? That went to someone who, if he's not living there, is familiar with that neighborhood because of what he was searching on the computer. It gave an indication that this was a younger individual because again, of what he was searching on the computer that it get there, possibly a younger black male. We also said that someone who would lack empathy again, clearly this is someone who could spend an extraordinary amount of time in the home, feed himself, do the laundry, work on the computer after having murdered someone, he was just moving on. He was looking for, I want to buy a tablet so that I can use that when I leave here. He had no care or concern after this absolutely brutal killing. Yeah, very cool and calm afterwards, which was in contrast to what he had just done, but also described him as possibly someone who is sort of a could be a loner or a drifter. Not very successful, maybe kind of from job to job kind of a mixed motive with this guy. As far as was this purely a sexual thing? Was it personal? Was it both likely again due to the lack of empathy and some of the other things we were seeing? It is some, but potentially someone who had been in trouble before, you know, maybe some misdemeanors or some issues with drugs or, et cetera, while he was very willing and unraveled by the use of violence. It was also evident from what you found at the crime scene that he was not particularly sophisticated, effective or efficient in his use of violence. And so what the impression was that he might have been habitually violent, but not necessarily someone who had murdered before it tended to weigh against that and that he was very callous in that, given he did just murder someone, that he then was able to have the presence of mind to go about attempting to to obscure evidence or destroy evidence. And although he was conscious that way again, he wasn't very sophisticated in that area either. That was his thought was to destroy evidence. But he wasn't. He wasn't particularly experienced. So good at it. And that there was a sexual motive, no doubt, and in that it it was probably what motivated his initial contact. At least it was a partial motivation for his initial contact with the victim. But from his interaction that devolved into just what you what you ended up seeing and there was no his removal of clothing or what have you. It may have been staging, but most likely it was an expression of his sexual curiosity interest in the victim and which was followed up by accessing porn and how he access the porn in all likelihood after he murdered the victim. So why do that if if he's interested in the subjects he was accessing pornography? Why once this woman's dead? We're not seeing that he's looking at necrophilia porn, so he's not intending to have sex with with the corpse. So why would he? What is that? And I think that that sexual motivation was was there again. It devolved into just the application of of violence. He definitely intended to kill her. That was his goal. When he began to attack her, it was to kill her. And his inefficiency in doing so just speaks of his lack of of experience and how to do so. For instance, if you said, OK, this is someone who does who is, say, a hit man, there would be nothing like this. Because as we all know, the more you interact with the victim, the more evidence you're going to leave, the more energy you have to expand ET. I can say one thing he did panic, but he was culpable. Does that make sense? Yes. Absolutely. Yes, it's comfortable. Yes. And his I think to again, his going to the more personal on his selection. I remember we have no, you know, we're talking about this. There was no signs of forced entry. So he was likely voluntarily let into the home. This is someone she knew. He knew her. And based on again, on what he was interested in looking at even after the homicide, there is a selection process there that she was someone that fit in to some kind of a fantasy that he had. And that was one of the reasons why she was selected and and then went over. And maybe this is conjecture. Then in his head, maybe he thought, Gee, this is going to go like what I've watched on pornography websites. We know she had a lot of defensive wounds. So, you know, and then when his he's rebuffed or rejected or told to leave or whatever, then it's on and I and he obviously could not accept the rejection and says on his social life with girlfriends and stuff like that. Well, one of the things that's particular about him is that having engaged in such a brutal murder, it did not completely dampen his sexual excitement. I don't know that it increased his sexual excitement, but maybe it did. But it definitely didn't. Didn't dampen it to the point where he was. He just wanted to clean up the mess and leave, and he could have just gone if his secondary plan was, well, let me. So it's not a complete failure of an evening. Let me let me try to order some stuff on her credit card. He goes beyond that. You know, I can understand staying in for practical purposes, determining that you needed to stay to clean up. And for practical purposes, I can understand now I need to order some stuff on our credit card because that is a practical goal. I'm going to get a benefit out of that. Accessing the porn was another thing where he's taking a risk actually even more of a risk than when he was using the credit cards. But it's important enough for him to do at her place right there. And he had a meal that's certainly not necessary time to be spending there, like you're saying, which, which adds he adds to the impression that this may have been the excitement of a sort in just being in control of her living space. And there have been studies on this where where they say that burglars. There is a sexual component to burglary. And what they found is it's related to to inhabiting the private living space of another person is somehow in their wiring, arousing, arousing, sexually exciting and interesting. So just for clarification, Bob, you were saying he planned to kill her, but that was based on her rejection. Once she rejected him, he planned to kill her at that point. Not you didn't go there to kill her. He went there to fulfill his fantasy. OK, I just wanted to make that clear. It absolutely. He did not plan from the start. I know the way it went. I don't even think he was planning to kill her. Like, I think in my personal opinion, he wanted to have a sexual advance, and she obviously denied him. She might have struck him. We don't know. He might have physically engaged in her, and she later went that route and he took it as she might even like, make fun of him. You're too short for me to get the hell out of here, and I might have set him off, but she's only five foot this guy that might have set it off. But I think as the struggle ensued, he went beyond where he wanted to go. Now that we're talking about the psychological aspect of it, he wasn't there either to, you know, because we knew he was in the house before either thrown out or garbage or shovel on her driveway or blah blah blah. So they know each other. We knew that maybe he got c**ky or a little confident that, hey, you know, let's go in here at night. Maybe I don't do drugs anymore. We don't know that. But you know, he obviously tried to advance sexually with her, and she just said, absolutely no way. And maybe he attempted to, you know, get physical with her and she fought off and maybe to a point where he was overpowered by his size. And he said, You know what, I'm the guy I want to take her. And he just. The only reason I say that murder was his objective is because of the number of means used, in fact, that if he were frustrated, say in manual strangulation, he goes in, he obtains a ligature from within the home. This is not he has not planned any of this. But as it goes, he's finding new tools to try to commit that. And that's knives and scissors. Right next to her, he found a pair of scissors. Beyond that, if he lets her live, what's the next step, right? I think that's it. Is it? Once it was game on, it was like this this. There's only one way to end this and all of this without getting caught because in our lives, she knows a liar. But prior to him, coming into that home and interacting with her murder wasn't on his mind at all. Six months on, he was like, I said, he was more confident. Maybe he was. Maybe she shot off the road signal. Who knows? You know, it's we just don't know. Well, someone who was somewhat evidence conscious because we see that he's trying to destroy evidence, washing everything that he touched the remote, the credit cards, her purse, the use of the fire extinguisher. He's definitely cognizant of friends and the cleaning supplies by her body, cleaning supplies by the body, the use of the Swiffer. All of this says he's evidence conscious, so if he did go there with a plan as to point it out, he would have had gloves. He would have had a weapon. I think to what speaks to me, to his lack of experience with murder are the multiple causes of death. He's not efficient at this at all. He hasn't done this before. Not saying he hasn't been violent before or not saying he hasn't engaged in a sexual assault before, but he's never murdered before, and he's extremely inefficient at this. And as as Bob was always grabbing everything that he can to make sure that she's dead, he's having a lot of trouble. So somebody's not really experience likely hasn't murdered before. I think that was one of the things that we were thinking of many times. When you see these sort of multiple causes of death and different means applied to kill somebody, you are dealing with someone with inexperience and murder as opposed to someone who's very experienced. So sometimes these extremely brutal, vicious looking crimes, you say, Oh, this person has to just be complete psychopath and going around there are killing machine. Typically, they're not. It's the more efficient murders that you see where the somebody has the experience. So I think we're thinking that this is somebody who is constantly on the younger and of age range. This was a couple in a relationship. This would be classified as a domestic act of domestic violence. Sure. Yeah. You know, and as we've investigated dozens of domestic violence cases and guess what, my husband or wife, that was their first crime. Oh, I was going to say the other thing that really stood out. And this is where Bob and I diverged on our opinions. I thought it was a neighbor. I thought very if somebody knew her schedule and knew the neighborhood, knew that they could spend a significant amount of time in her home. And so I felt as somebody had watched her home, I at the time when we were learning about the use of the credit cards and her computer, I thought, possibly what is he thinking if he's going to order stuff to her home, he has to be able to watch when those packages are delivered. And so all of this kind of made me think this has got to be a neighbor. You know, Bob had a different opinion about that. Bob, what was your impression just based on the crime and what you thought about this offender? Well, part of the thing was that there had been a canvass done in the neighborhood. A significant canva*s. Yes, yes. And the type of neighbor that that we're we're hearing about did not match the characteristics of what we're talking about. So although, yeah, I mean, it makes sense that he'd be able to watch the residence and wait until these packages arrived, et cetera, or he at least put it into motion a plan where he could do that. On the other hand, if you don't have anyone that matches the rest of this, then I was like, Well, you know, it's a thought. But he could also just be a guy who will drive down the street on the day that it's supposed to be delivered and do a quick grab. So I was thinking, who could be familiar, but not necessarily live there? I mean, you were there to be in the area. He could be kind of this kind of down and out character. I just didn't walk in on on him being a neighbor. So where? That's where Julia and his opinion were different because she said, well, this could be a neighbor for those reasons, and I was saying well, but those reasons seemingly have been exhausted by the canvas. It still doesn't negate everything else we are saying. That's that's how we settled on your what you just said are, you know, professionals. We did our canva*s. We're kind of excluding that out. So now we're on to the relationships. Yes. She has had in the past. Now this person, though, she was alone, this person is comfortable in a house. We're thinking it's some sort of partner that we haven't surfaced yet, haven't found that's been in the house before. Again, that we rule out a neighbor. I mean, not completely, but it was like the door was shoddy because like you said, we did our experiments and we went back and looked back and we and honestly, it changed the way we view cameras because once we found out that this person was all yours, we're like, we got to got to be a little more thorough on all lives here because sometimes you lock in, you're locked in at the moment, like. OK, who was all between here and here? And what did you see as opposed to who the Hell's been living there for the last five years that don't live here anymore? You know, stuff like that, little stuff like that and or I mean, thinking about you mentioned it before, this is right around the holidays. So it's the week before Thanksgiving. So people who might have been there at the time, at the time of Thanksgiving, that would maybe not be there at other times or who is who's an associated family member who could come and go. And so once we discovered it was home value, not who was, I can get into that later. What we can, we can start getting into that now is, I think we've covered the profile. Anything else you can think of, Angela or so have? I do have a quick question and I know Julia touched on it, but I'm not sure if Sue did. But in looking at the notes, it was interesting that you part of your profile was possibly a black male. Mm hmm. So I was trying to distinguish how you determine that and you determine that because of what of the porn he was looking at? Right? Right. OK. I thought that was it was just a great example of how every little detail makes a difference. And you have to pay attention to it. The fact you picked that out from what type of porn he was watch generally under the circumstances. Just based on her victimology, we would have gone more likely. A white male because of the site is exactly is because of the searches and the pornography. We felt like they needed to consider that this may be a younger black male, but not to the exclusion of all others ever ever. But that was something even, you know, it just kind of made us think this could potentially be a black male where there is a bunch of, you know, basically every possible variation that that pornographer porn producers can think of will be represented in some type of porn. If he were, let's say, a white male and he were interested just in younger male older woman, he could have easily found that what he searched was very specifically a younger, you know, a black male, and that typically that ended up with her in an older white woman. That's a very particular search for a very particular type of pornography. And it would be it would be very unusual for that to be the search for a young, for any white male and appropriate for the crime. He just committed a younger man with an older white female. Yeah, right. So Mike, before we get into how you identified the offender, I just want to kind of recap what our profile was at the time. Based on the information that your team had provided us, so mixed motive, personal sexual, this person is evidence conscious, which made us think he'd likely been in trouble before but not necessarily had committed a murder before because of the ineffectiveness of this murder that this was not likely planned prior to going to the house. But the motive was formed at the time, whatever the interaction was between them. He formed the motive to kill her and planned to do it at that point in time because he just didn't come prepared in any way, shape or form. This person is likely a thief in terms of having been in trouble before, maybe for theft. He's opportunistic. He lacks empathy. He exhibited this calmness and he was cool afterwards and spent a significant time in the house and again goes back to what Bob was talking about. When we see somebody spending a lot of time in the house that could have a sexual component to it. We see a lot of what we call sexual burglaries, and a lot of many serial killers have started out as burglars, and we've seen that through our work. We thought possibly a younger black male as we've already been over, possibly a neighbor, a loner, a drifter, and this person is likely not very successful in life. Just, you know, not accomplished, probably doesn't stick to any one thing for very long and therefore making it difficult for them to be successful in an occupation of any of any kind. I know I remember at one point saying, Are you sure? Did you know recanvass? Maybe you need to go out a little further about your canvass had been exhaustive, which was why Bob was like, This is probably not a neighbor. Based on. You're a thorough investigation, so. So that's where we came up with. I can't think of anything else that we might have told your team at the time, but that was generally based on what you had provided to us. So after a neighbor who was like industrial and the other half was residential, but we exhausted the residential two times over, but we couldn't get into the industrial areas because it was late at night. And it's, you know, business hours are shut down after five o'clock. We knew this happened after seven o'clock, so the only thing that we didn't get was surveillance cameras in and around that area. So like today, everyone's back. We would have quite sort of Typekit, right? Thirteen years ago, it was they were just coming into play with residential. So it was perfect. How did you identify your suspect? So we're in the unit one day and my partner receives a call from an individual in the Boston area, and she asked for him by name because our names are in the paper for because we get a lot of media on this, from the news or in the local papers, and we do that with a lot of cases. And she said that it had been a year right on the first year anniversary. I think we did a six month and a one year anniversary. My recollection, but I know we did it on a one year, so she calls up Rob and she identifies herself, and she wants to know if she's speaking to Rob Henderson. Detective Henderson, this is how and she goes. I have to say I may have some information for you about a murder that you're investigating. And he's on the phone, and she indicated that she's on social media with an individual who committed this crime. She didn't mention the victim by name, but she was giving details of what we located in the home, meaning items in the cell, a running shower. And the thing with the fire extinguisher. And that and the big thing was washing of the clothes that was that was a big one. And Rob documents or information and a team of detectives went up there. I think it was him another detective who has an audio camera and the assistant prosecutor, and she allowed them to access her web page, her social media page. And we identified the suspect and we went to our canvass notes and we realized that was the same last name a woman that lived right across the street. So now we do a full blown out workup of the guy, and he was he didn't really have a solid address that was one of them. We did another mock canva*s. We specifically went to her door and she came clean, says, You know, what does anyone else live there, how they live? Do you have any kids? And that's when she indicated to my son is, I know you're worried. And now, now it's a retrieval process. Now we're looking to go. We realize he had an open war. I think it was a child support war. He was eventually put in custody. We put a hold on him through a judge to get his DNA sample. We obtained the oral sample and it was him. We tried talking to him, but I don't want to get into that. But once the DNA technician said You got a match, that's what we charged with murder. That's pretty interesting stuff. So Arnelle Yearwood, how old was he at the time? The murder was committed early, twice or so? I can't recall. I don't have his birthday right in front of me. I have 26 years old, but I don't know if that was when he committed the murder or when he was arrested. I can honestly say he was in his mid mid-20s. Mid-twenties. So describe. Him to us and what he said about the murder scene was a little sarcastic. He was more forthcoming. You wanted to eat. He wouldn't give us a reason why he did what he did. He's described as a five foot wide skinned black male scruffy face hair not well groomed, almost as if he talking to a lot of serial killers, but killers have killed in the past. Sometimes you look, when you interview them, they look right through you as if you're not there. This guy had a look like you just didn't give a s**t like it's been. It was on his mind for a long time, and it was almost exhaustion that he got caught. Personality wasn't great. He wasn't giving us what we wanted. What I'm trying to say is he he kind of felt relieved that he he's going to stop running. But he wasn't happy about it. He knew his life was over. You know, once once you get a match like that, there's no coming back from that. But he wasn't. He wasn't a friendly individual. He wasn't cooperative. I've had guys that jump out at sea and just want to get off their chest. All right. It's very deceptive on, you would imagine. There's no motive in this case. We never secured a motive. Why did you do it? Like you said, there's theories always that we just discussed, but the day of the sentencing just still wouldn't come clean on what the motive was. So had to get it somewhere, the fact that they were dating and she just wasn't feeling something, you know, something to make them feel good. You know, just a stroke, his ego a little bit. But we we all know, we kind of think what we know, what happened there, that we just discussed that he tried to come on to our little guy. He did not have no interest in her, and he is a man who was humiliated. And I think that's what it was, and his ego is just crushed. And maybe he dealt with that his entire adult life, and he just couldn't take it anymore. That's with it. And that's where he's at, unfortunately. Though he was at the time staying across the street, but he was also he moved around quite a bit. You guys had a little bit of difficulty finding him at first. Correct. Was he was a drifter. He was a drifter. And we we just followed all investigative leads. We had multiple agencies looking for. We found them in another jurisdiction. We had them looking for. We have the US marshals of the four marshals have an abundance of resources to locate people, stuff that we wouldn't talk about what they don't. They were very good at what they do. That's their job. They're a professional retrieval company. Lawrence, that's our that's what they do. They, you know, we have our local law squad guys and girls, and they do a great job with these guys. They're they're know they're very technology driven and they use the latest technology you can run, which you can. I, you know, I've I've been with them before and I'm like, This is great. Where'd you get this? Where'd you get this toy from? You know, it's based on, Oh wow, why can't I get one of these? You know, it's no, it wasn't the nicest of individuals, and like I said, it's all about. When I say my career, our careers as homicide detectives, you know, when you got the right guy now and this guy just he wasn't kicking and screaming, you got the wrong guy. You just sat there relieved and arrogant in the same way that makes any sense. Yeah, pretty accurate. Palmer relieved that he's not bouncing around anymore, but arrogant where his ego so involved that he doesn't want to give us why he committed this act. It's probably his ego that led to this a fragile ego, as Angela is a narcissistic injury, perhaps. Know, and like I told everyone outside, you said you saw episodes of this before. It wasn't for her. We want to sound pushy. No, I'm saying yes. She in a way, she identified him for us. That's what she did in any of these cases. I mean, this was old fashioned police work. We were. We just went from door to door to door to door. And you use the media as another resource. You just don't give too much out. We were fortunate enough to come across this woman who volunteered information to us, which was phenomenal. And she was great. You know, she thank God for her and they, you know, they should never have happened. But unfortunately, it did happen and she made it. And that's that's that's the only way I can put it, because if we don't have his DNA sample, this is. What are we doing now? This was this was inside four walls and there's no witnesses and there's no other evidence. Unless you come forward, but I think I know, you know, I think you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, I think this is a great example, too, that you did have the DNA evidence. So you or you did put out strategically more information. And it was that information that you put out that this person who is communicating with your offender recognized and was able to figure out, OK, I think I know what case he's talking about based on the details he shared with me, and she was able to search those details and those are details that your department had put out. And that's what led. So it was really good media strategy using the media. And I think sometimes people hold on to all the information. They don't let certain, you know, parts of the case out, but you did a really good job in doing that. And if if all that information hadn't been out there already, it's very unlikely this person would have known the media. There's no doubt we have a couple of years ago locally and we were having a hard time with it and the latest thing today in terms of trucks that drive by with the billboards on. Yes, the electrical billboards. Mm hmm. So we have an individual that used to work here in law enforcement and now owns one of those companies. Would you buy? Absolutely. So, you know, we would drive through the like almost like in your face, like, we know what happened. Now we're telling you what happened. We just need you to tell us where that is and how the media is great if it's on the news or in the paper or social media pops up on our phones. So it's it's it's a great resource. But I will say today in today's culture with homicides, I think they're down across the country. But for the most part, because of technology, it's everyone. Every business owns a large portion of residential homes, surveillance cameras. So if you're outside, you're someone's watch is watching somewhere, you know? And I remember when I came home years ago, it was like almost out of a movie. Get the state. Now let's get the video. You know, it's an anger at the state. The technology is these things are very technology driven. You guys are high tech individuals. Can't thank you guys enough. And like I said, I've always said this before it takes. It takes a group of law enforcement agencies to do this. This is not a one man show. This is this is multiple agencies, either the FBI or the Marshals or DEA profiler unit or crime scene units. It takes it takes a village to really get these things done. You guys are great. I appreciate. Mike, did you get a chance to talk to your Watts mother? And did she give any background on him if you did? No. So ironically, you know, she seems very cold to us a little bit. But she we got a search warrant for the house. And I don't think we I brought this up before, but I think you notice so we went through his computer and what we thought was his. And it basically had the same fingerprint websites that we saw on Binance.US same same website. So it is one of those, you know, it's just it's your son, right? I've dealt with a lot of suspects families and I will say the same, but they're not happy about what, you know, law enforcement involved in their life now in a bad way. But you know, it's we still have to do our job. And the other thing you can do is pray for your loved one that's committed this crime and be cooperative as possible. Some do, some don't. You know, I find a lot of moms and dads, you know, call me up and I want my sons or daughters. All right, that's great. Thank you. Mike, do you recall if Darnell had any criminal history of any kind because you guys identify him as like a loner drifter? He was like a nickel and dime, maybe shoplifting here and there. You maybe put a candy bar in his pocket, but because he wasn't in the college system, he wasn't a it wasn't a violent offender. He was a convicted of a violent crime. Mm hmm. So, you know, in New Jersey, you were convicted of a first or second degree. You'd go right into it to take a biological sample and put it in, and it's almost like a storage unit. Hmm. And if you know, if there's a crime like this or when you have a DNA sample, you put it into the, you know, almost like a jukebox that the lights will go off. But then you've still got to go out and get that person's actual profile and do it all over again just to just lock it in. And I do want to mention he winds up getting 30 years. Is that right? Believe it or not, I don't think the family wanted to go through a trial. So is that the reason why he didn't get? I'm just wondering why they settled on that? What were the 30 years came from as opposed to like a life sentence? I think it was started. It's not. That's not my ballpark on my wheelhouse. The legal the lawyers dealt with that. Hmm. But I know we got 30 years or so potentially out when he's late 50s. But when the deportation from what I understand, I think you're right on deportation. No, enlighten me a little bit, Angela. I wasn't aware of that last little bit. From what I understand, he got a flat 30 years, which means he's serving the full 30 and then after that will be deported back to Trinidad. Just from reading and from the documentary. One other thing I wanted to mention Julia, just because on the TV side of things sometimes is as far as how, you know, whatever the shows are and how our involvement in this, I think this is also a really good example of how it actually works and how it can work really well sometimes. And as Mike has said several times that it's not one person or one unit, you know, successful investigations like this, especially with such a complex crime scene, it involves a lot of people all working together and as opposed to how it's kind of portrayed on TV where we're notified of a case and we're out on scene and we take things over and make the arrest and all the other stuff that's going on that this is actually how the process works, that the behavioral analysis units were there to act in a consultative type role and that you department works a case and they get to a point where they'd like to have some outside eyes. Look at it and they put together a package and bring it to us and we go back over it. I think, Mike, you put it great as far as you can get with all of us having been investigators in the field before, you can get kind of drilled down and looking at one particular area and you take it to a group that then gives you sort of a global vision of something, goes over all the facts and circumstances and then offer some suggestions. And then you take those suggestions and go right back and dig right back in. And it's the department and all the agencies that assist you in the department that then bring the case to its conclusion. We can't using a set of fresh eyes. So again, I've been out here for a couple of years now, but when I was there hot and heavy, you would run and gun for a couple of weeks and then we'd have what you call a like an intel me. And we'd have to say it's a 18 man unit. Two guys who run in a case pick a day go into the conference room. This is what we got. This is what we're gonna do. And then your other homicide detectives are like your care that you work there once you try not to get away with just, you know, in a helpful way. You know, it's always just because sometimes you get tunnel vision, you know, and you you run and gun for this angle, but sometimes you got to look at this. So we'll have like an intel, and I think they still do today. If you're going to cross and now we do it on this a couple of times you want to cross roads, you know you're still hot and heavy. There's still a lot of leads, but you want a set of, you know, you want to tell the case to a number of people. Let's hear what they have to say or give you ideas, stuff, or they may know something they're maybe involved on in other cases. Let me. I know. I'm you know, you talk to that guy. I've dealt with him before we me. No problem. You know, put your ego at the door. Let someone talk to someone. It's getting information. We go from there. The flip side is, Mike, that we we did consultations with people not not even just all over the country, but but worldwide. And sometimes you talk to investigators and they're very receptive and they think about not just what you're saying, but how they can use it to the advantage of the case. And that was certainly our experience with your team. Unfortunately, it depends on on, as you know, we're not doing the work, we're just consulting the people who are doing the work. And as we could come up with something that we felt was the absolute best we could do, depending on who's receiving it depends on what happens in the case. This was fortunate all around. Without a doubt. I mean, we were so glad to have passed off the best we could do and that it didn't just say it wasn't just received like, that's weird and kind of interesting and put that in the file anyway, because that can happen and and sunk your teeth into it. You know, on the other hand, it's never a single handedly whatever is. You know, what we do is never anything more than just another tool to. Be used in the way. So it's gratifying for us when there are good tools in the box in the first place, and there's people, there's people who know how to use them and then we give them another one and that just goes along with it. Use every tool. You have everything, you know, I guess even like we put our cases, we were put like electronic billboards out in the in and there were like stationary ones. Not just the ones that are on wheels justice. So you know, the old one, you know, not another colour board, but a regular police information on this please call blah blah blah. Every little bit helps. You remember that helps. Well, thank you, Mike, for joining us. And I just want to commend you and your team and the prosecutor's office for a job well done from start to finish took you about 18 months, and that's pretty good, pretty good work and a lot was done. So it was a pleasure having the opportunity to work with you and appreciate you coming on the show today and it's on you for having me. That's it for this episode of the Consult. Thank you for listening. Music for the console is composed by John Hanc**k. If you'd like to learn more about our show, you can visit our website UWW dot true crime console dot com. That's UWW dot true crime console dot com. You can also follow us on Twitter. Our handle is at the console pod. Thank you. And.
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