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Do you think Christmas is scary at all? Like, not just like Christmas horror but like, what, what are aspects of Christmas that you find like a little scary? I mean, a huge question overarching. I mean, if you break it down, I guess you could say it's scary because some Santa's breaking into your house like that, you know, you could make up that you're putting lights outside the house so people don't break into your house too. You know, I don't know. There's like, you could, you could make it scary if you want. Horror. Always goes so well with Christmas because Christmas to me, the, the, the real magic of Christmas is always at night and I think night is scary. There's like a timeless thing about Christmas night where like when I was a kid, I felt like I was like, you're almost like, while you're waiting. This is so stupid while you're like, waiting for it to happen, right? Like Christmas, I always felt like I was in a weird, like timeless kind of state like, like there is no time, you're just sort of like waiting and you're almost like you're in another dimension. Yeah, almost like the, the shot to the moon and home alone. That kind of like, oh, the magic of the night before. It's, it's a weird, well, that's all like Christmas Eve because I always like Christmas Eve better than Christmas Day because that anticipation is so sweet. You know, and I love the night, like, I would like being in the car, like leaving a Christmas Eve party and, like being in the car as a kid and just feeling that like this. But for me, I think it's a double edge where for it's, it's also a little spooky. I don't know. Is that weird? No, I mean, I mean, it's hard because it's like, I, I feel like there's a lot of like, traditions that haven't passed on, like, like there's things that I was, like, very aware of as a kid of like Christmas carol and like, you know, because that was a big more Victorian tradition of the, of the Christmas ghost story that was not like a part of my childhood necessarily. And that didn't really come over aside from a Christmas carol and like the idea of telling actual, like, not even on Christmas, like just telling ghost stories on Christmas Eve that sort of like died away, which that should come back and, and, and of course, there's just the whole thing of like, each generation kind of becoming a little bit more like doting on the kids and like, it being very much like trying to shield it into this like magical, I mean to the point where it's like so overbearing where you see like, you know, the screaming kids in Santa's lap, that whole classic image. But it is interesting how much like in terms of like the like in terms of like actual like celebrating the day, like being in it, I I feel like it was mostly positive but it is interesting when you stop to think about how much like, threat is, like, built into so many narratives around it. Well, if you think about Krampus too, like, that's a, for like a very long time, Santa was a scary thing because you had to be good. You always had helpers in some cultures, you better watch. Well, there's like, they would legit put the kids in a sack where they beat the kids with a switch it back, you know. That's scary stuff. That's like a little intense. Yeah. And it's like, I mean, like everything because it's like, even like, you know, I, I grew up in an extremely religious family and so, like, even Christ's birth is like, surrounding like Herod killing every kid he can get his hands on, you know, and then like fleeing, uh you know, in, in, in, in, in his pursuit, you know. So it is funny like how like the day is, yay, but it's like every everything surrounding it and then even like modern stories of like, home alone, they're gonna break in your house and kill you. You know, it's like, it is funny how much of it. But it, but again, like, what, what kind of fun Christmas story would it be without any conflict? Just like, like it is there even an example of that, like, of just like a no conflict. Christmas movie or story? I don't even know. It would probably be something very avant garde. It'd be like something like something for preschoolers or preschoolers or like the thing is just like, Santa can't attach the thing to ala, how do we do it? But I don't think something for adults just a movie without conflict because if it's not supernatural, it's like something with your parents or a family member or whatever, that's just a good challenge. Maybe that's just, that's a good, make a good Christmas movie without conflict. I mean, why would you want to know the obstruction? You know, a great, I mean, you probably shouldn't do everything done. You probably should, you know, I mean, that's essentially just the story. Anything that adapts towards the night before Christmas, there's no conflict. I mean, Christmas books, there's no, the night before Christmas like that book, anything that adapts that there's usually nothing like communicating the mood, like, like, like, yeah, like a tone poem where you're just communicating a feeling about something and it doesn't necessarily, yeah, like the whole point of it is just connecting to the feeling, the feeling of Christmas, which I, I will say, I think I would agree that Christmas Day for me almost every time has been a, not like there's been some very good ones, but I would say more often than not. You have that feeling of like disappointment, like it didn't meet what you anticipated for the 25 days, 30 days before. You know what I mean? Like, even as a kid, I'd be like, because I was, I was bad. I would like sneak because the couch was blocking the tree and so you could hide behind the couch and like, look at the present. I was really bad. And then I'd be like, really surprised when they, yeah, but they, my parents were always really smart and they like, waited to bring down the really good ones later. But like the night of like my dad and the Santa. Yeah. Well, that was Santa. My mom wrote Santa on like every present but either way, uh for whatever, it's like the, the first quarter of Christmas Day is great. But then it's almost like boring. That's what I was gonna say. You're like, what do we do now? Like, you clean up all the garbage from the wrapping and then you're like, it's like chores, it's chores, we'll eat dinner later. Like, what do we do now? Ok. I'm gonna cook all day. Great. I'm like, and there's so many movies where people like, go out on Christmas Day, which is not a thing for us. That was not for me either. But like, that's something I sort of want to do more. Like, it's fun doing that. We did that a couple of times. Like, we go for a walk because, like, there's a neighborhood that has like a light competition and decoration competition. And so you get to walk along the water and, like, see all these houses. Sometimes we'd go see a movie. But it depends. But yeah, it's, it's fun because like, there's not as many people out because I would say a majority don't go out, especially if they have a huge family staying with them and doing like a full big to amend the original question. Scary. I think Christmas Eve is scary. Christmas Day is not, I think, but there's a lot of cool old traditions. Like we've been talking about that. II I would like that to come back. That's the thing is, I feel like, I wish, I wish it was scarier for me because that's the thing. It's like, it's, yeah, for me, it's so hard to, to, to remove from the religious aspect for me because I was just like, you know, my father's a pastor. So it was like that was life. But it was like, but then you go like, and you see all the old world traditions of it. No, I was a protestant. So we would just do um, if it happened to land on a Sunday we would do something. Usually, always a Christmas Eve service every, every year and then there were, yeah. So it was just like, um, always Christmas Eve, always read the, um, Christ's birth passage from the Bible. Every, every Christmas morning, stuff like that. But it was like, yeah, that my mom always wanted to do midnight ma*s. But no, nobody wanted to do this. I, I sort of, I'm not religious but, like, I just like the sound of it. Is it really at midnight? I mean? Oh, yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I think it's usually 11 and then I, yeah, it's, I think they do a couple of evening masses, like, it starts at eight pm. I want to go at midnight, like, six pm. Get out of there last night. I think it depends on the church. But they, they do an evening mass now. I think most people don't go at midnight. But it's like, I think seven or eight after dinner, it's a little scary. Like, I like the midnight turning of the day, you know. Yeah, this was a long opening and by the way, nobody knows who the third person is. They never do until we get. That's fine. That's fine. That's like, you just have a lot of content and you can cut down. It's part of the mystery. It keeps you listening. Who is that, is that Bono who has these takes. It could be anyway, I have to listen. Do you know what the most frightening thing in the world is? It's fear you, you wanna see something really scary. What's that? Nothing under the bed time to keep your appointment will come out. You gotta be f**king kill this. Yeah. Be very, I'll show you who I am and what I am. What's your favorite scary movie you want to bring us in? Yeah, welcome back to be very afraid of a special Christmas episode here. This is a Christmas episode. A Tide uh festive recording. I see the Christmas tree. There's a Christmas tree behind us, the lights, we got the decorations and we're here. Uh Christmas came early because we have a very special present to open up. He's in a box. He's been in there all day, so he's a little sweaty. Uh And uh it's, it's here, it's here. It's exactly what I wanted for Christmas. Uh Our guest today is Ben Withington. Ben works in the V FX pre industry. Um And uh I've known him for about 15 minutes now. I've known for a very long time and they have a great report already. We uh with some other friends, we do uh the monthly film club where we screen screen some scream, scream. I Yeah, we do some screaming. Uh Yeah, we watch a lot of stuff and this isn't a movie that uh today's movie we never screened, but we did go together. We all, I think it was the full old film club. We all went together. We all went, um, that was actually my second time seeing it. That's right. I forgot that. Gabby. Do you remember? We went to, I was gonna say, I thought I saw it at a theater. We went to like a sneak because I, no, we went to like a before it came out, we went to like a sneak peek like test screening. Yeah, but it was, the movie was completed. It was like three weeks before it came out or something. Yeah, we went and they remember at the end we filled out like bars there when we came out of theater. This is a Burbank, right? That was in Burbank. But you, no, because the second time you were there and my wife, mystery friend of the podcast also was there. But yeah, I loved it both times. Well, I shouldn't have said that. Yeah, automatically I loved it. Uh Today we're covering the Green Knight. Uh So this came out in 2021. Uh It's adapted from the 14th century poem Sir Garwin and the Green Knight. So I, I have a question. So the movie they pronounce Garwin, Arthur, Arthur. Well, they actually other people say it. So they do, but like quite a few of them also say Gin Gin, which uh I mean, it's hard, I'm not a linguist and it's just imagination from what I can see. I was taught Gawayne growing up. That's what I thought. That's what I read it as, which is, I think. Yeah, it is plausible. I mean, that's sort of, well, it also is, there's a lot of dialects in England and so, like, even, like Chaucer was contemporary with this guy and they have different dialects. I Garwin, I think it's really fun. But probably the closest is Gawin because, because it's uh because the things the poet from what I can see, he, he because spelling didn't really matter back then they would just kind of spell as they wanted to. So he changes spelling throughout the poem and he also does Gawan, which and so people are like, ok, well, you could kind of infer that maybe his dialect mixed with the fact that he spells it like this. But ii, I haven't heard anyone that pronounces middle English say gar I, it feels like it's always either gain, gain. And I've, I've also heard Gawain but like, uh but it's usually, I feel like it's always ga but, but um I don't know what the, the thing is between the gar, but I mean, that could be plausible too. I mean, no one was there, you know. That's true. Well, the, the Green Knight was directed, written edited and produced by David Lowery and it stars Dev Patel Alicia Vikander, Joel Edgerton, Sean Harris and Ralph Eison as the Green Knight brief synopsis. King Arthur's immature and Wayward nephew Garwin accepts the provocation of a mysterious green knight who challenges Arthur's court that any who lands a blow on him with will win his acts but must journey to the Green Chapel and receive an equal blow. In return on the following Christmas desperate to prove his worth. Garwin accepts the game and sets forth on a journey wrought with thieves, ghosts, giants and other mysteries, smoking. It's Christmas. It's very Christmas. This is my kind of Christmas movie because it's not like, I mean, the whole thing is about Christmas set around Christmas and like referenced a lot and it's, you know, we've been into the, it's very integral to the film, but it's not like super flashy Christmasy like old school Christmas, which I really like, they didn't really have the lights. I mean, they obviously didn't have the lights or the pleasantries that we have now the most they did was like fairs and they had like, you know, I think in the poem they say it lasted a fortnight, right? Like it's like a whole celebration, make it worthwhile. You know, I like that and it's always so cold. So it's like why not? Like do a bunch of group parties so you can all stay warm. Yeah. Oh, for sure. I would do it. The bodies together. I got to, it looks cold. You know, all you have is candle light to light. Everything. It's freezing so big. Reason we definitely want to have you on for this Ben. It's because you, I've never met anyone that, like, knows so much about like Arthurian legends and stuff like, which is, which is kind of, which is kind of waned a little bit over the years because it was, I grew up really liking the stories. It all kind of came from reading. Um Just, it's funny how much of this, how much of your interest happened from this happenstance is that my, my dad had a copy in a collection of just random stuff of uh it was uh this Scottish folk artist named Mary mcleod who adapted or, or maybe just did an editing of Mallory's Lamour Arthur, which is probably the most complete English collection of Arthurian tales from like the 14 hundreds. And um and I just read that like, like nine and I just took it down for some reason, just like powered through it because it still has very archaic language and everything like that. But for some reason, I think it just like connected and yeah. And um but it's funny because I think this poem gets read a lot in school. Did you guys ever read it in school? Because I've, I've, I've, I've, I've met a surprising amount of people that also get it taught, which is interesting. I think we had a very, like extremely brief lesson on King Arthur in like second grade. But like, we didn't really read anything. Yeah, because, because I never, this is the only Arthurian thing I ever got taught in grade school. Like, II, I, all my interests were mostly, like, my own of, like, read, like, anything that had to do with Mallory and Lamar Darth and everything that was my own, reading my own interests. And, um, but for, yeah, whatever reason this poem, I guess, because it's just early English literature. Like, it's so, that's like among the early, you know, like, like the, you know, Bead and Chaucer, it's like you have these really early examples of English literature. So it's kind of just like, hey, it's two birds with one Stone, have an old English poem, early English literature and have some Arthur in there. We definitely, we read Chaucer, we read like Canterbury Tales. Did you ever get me? I mean, I must have done it at some point because I obviously knew about Arthur and the round table. But I honestly don't, I couldn't, I couldn't recall other than like the like Excalibur. Yeah. Yeah, that's all, that's all I know. I really, very, very little. I just know that there's a round table and he's, he's king, which is very, it's like, very interesting for a kid. Like I will say, like the sword and the stone and Merlin and everything and it works a lot. And I think also again, coming back to like being like growing up really religious where you like there's a kind of myth is already a central part of your, like, epistemology by like, thinking about the world, you know, that it was like those old texts, like when you read like the Welsh Maag on or anything, like, they have those adventures in them, but there's also a lot of language that feels very historical. And so you kind of as a kid, you get to have this kind of like, like, it's almost like you're getting, you're getting the, the fantasy excused with this also, like, oh, it's also kind of important. It's also kind of, you know, it also looks pretty historical, you know, is it, are the stories actually historical or are they fictional stories written in medieval time? They're probably like mostly fiction written, probably like King Arthur wasn't a real person or it's, it's argued, but it's mostly consensus is that he wasn't real because the earliest writings about him would be like 50 golly, like, they're talking about him as a king is like 500 years after he would have lived if he lived. So it's like, he's so far removed and like, uh there's like one, I can't remember his name, but there's like one historian from like 800 who mentions an Arthur in a battle but doesn't call him a king. And then like the next reference of him in history is like, oh, he was this king and it's just like, ok, why wasn't he mentioned anywhere else first. Oh Yeah. Yeah, totally. But it uh when Merlin showed up in the green night and they did that moment with him, like checking the green night if he was like a threat or whatever. And after I looked over at Brian, he's like, f**k. Yeah. Merlin's awesome. I love his look in that. It's like, it's very like, it's just like there's so much you can read into that, like subtext and he has no lines like the two times you see him. I just love his look. I love all his tattoos. It's like long hair and that, and that is a tradition of like the Druid Merlin, you know, like, oh, this is a Stonehenge Merlin, you know, it's like, you know, which is very cool. So it, it a fun, the whole thing of like that small bit is great where Arthur looks at him and he like, does that like almost out of body some kind of weird thing that gives him the great, yeah, I love that. I'm just like, it's a great detail without, without having to like, you know, get too much into him or like, oh, we gotta make him a big part of this or something like that, which he shouldn't be. I mean, that's something I really like about this which um and like featurettes we've seen like David Lowry's talked about is little plants of all these other stories. And like at the round table, like if you want to look and like eat your eggs and stuff, but it doesn't affect this story. So there shouldn't, you shouldn't spend too much time on it. And, and that's the thing is, I think overall what I like so much about this is the personal aspect. Like he obviously is very, it's very, there's a lot of research and a lot of um love and care into the design, but it is ultimately done how I think you should do something which is very personal. Like I think it's like he's got a very much his take, his kind of kind of literary narrative agenda that he wants to, you know, things that he wants to talk about, you know, and um and, and just everything really serving that. And so yeah, instead of because there could be a temptation to be like, ok, in service of this, I gotta, I gotta hit this, I gotta hit this because, you know, to be, to be a good fan or something, you know, it's like, but, but ultimately the strength of it really is from like kind of the relentless um loyalty to his, what he wants to talk about, you know, it also for me like ticks the boxes of what I love in fantasy. Like I'm not like a, a high fantasy guy, like I don't need a lot of dragons and like stuff like that. I like weird honestly. Anything where it's like someone's just essentially doing a road trip and encountering weird things or random, like, pockets of maybe this was supernatural. Well, that is what's funny is that, that is Arthurian romance. It's mostly interpersonal. There's not a lot of creatures or it's mostly like, weird formal meetings of people in fields and then, like, you don't know where they came from or what they're doing. Like the black knight in the black field and that they just meet up and they talk and then it's like, you know, and then some kind of ritual fighting happens and then they learn something from it and move on and it's all very opaque and, but yeah, I think it is, it is funny. There's like kind of this, it's inspired this thing of such like high fantasy with crazy things happening when you go back and read them. It's pretty, it's pretty just based on people and like people interacting with each. Yeah, walking around in the fields, you know. That's awesome. Which is, it's kind of cool about, about this that captures that a little bit where he's like, not too far from, from his city that he encounters this like dead army. And it's just like, and he, and he has no idea what it was no idea. You know, it's just like this kind of out of the mist comes this other human event that's like nearby and that feels very Arthurian to me where like, you're just like, nights going out and after 50 miles he encounters something that he just totally has no context for, you know, it's, uh, that feels very true to form, I think. Interesting. That's cool. I mean, I obviously things I really liked but, like, I love, uh, Jim Hensons as a story teller. So I love, like, weird little pockets of things. Like, that's why I love the stuff with, uh, Saint Winifred. Like, just like, oh, I stepped into this random supernatural mystery and it doesn't affect the larger story. It's just a small, like one night's adventure and then moving on, like, I really like that kind of stuff for sure. In like, almost like when the movie sort of split into chapters, not sort of, it's explicitly, but I like that about it. Yeah, that's, that's what I like. I don't know, I love it. I love, I really like this movie. I think it's just such a, I mean, every attention to detail is so there, I mean, uh, incredible production design. Like it's, it's when I'm watching this movie, I really feel like you're watching something. I mean, there's so much King Arthur stuff, you know, media, but it feels very different than a lot of that stuff. Like, it feels almost not, not to compare it specifically to like Robert Eggers, but like, it feels like something like where it's both obviously fictional, but it feels rooted in history or, or it has some kind of purpose to it. Like, I, I really liked, like we watched what you showed me, John Borman's Excel, which uh I know Lawry has talked about being inspired by like that movie, which this has a very different tone than that. I really like Excel too, but there's something about the green light that I don't know. What do you think? I'm talking too much. Like I'm rolling, I'm going all over the place. I mean, I, I, it's funny because I would, I, I mean, I love the movie, I think, I think it's, I think it's great but it's, uh, I don't know if I'd say I feel like it's rooted in history. Like, it feels like a, like, I mean, I've heard Lowry kind of talk about it as a fantasy movie and to me it does feel like a, like a fantasy, I think just like, like the, the settings and like the way it's lit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But like some of the, the aesthetics, yeah, feel, feel, feel a bit grounded. Like, yeah, the light, the lighting is, is mostly realistic. Yeah. No, it's a very, it's very complete in its design, which I think is great. Like, yeah. So you don't feel like, because I've, I've seen a lot of other Lowy movies and this feels the most cohesive. Like he feels like he, where, like every scene feels placed and like, has a purpose, you know, you never feel like Well, what was the scene for? What was this, you know, why, why do we have the shot? You know, like, which I felt in some of his other, his other work. But this really feels like moment to moment like, yeah, this is like, this is a complete vision and like, and like all the themes like echo throughout because like, even you were talking about Saint Winifred as being a thing. But like, even though it is kind of this tangent, like it really does still thematically come in obviously because of, you know, superficial stuff, like the head, the head coming off. Yeah. But also just, I mean, like, there's also especially watch because I've seen it three times now. This time, I especially picked up on uh some of the thematic elements and like, what's going on, particularly with Darwin's journey and like how each of these tests add something to the overall decision he makes at the end. Um Because like, especially with Saint Winifred, like lines that really stuck with me this time is like when he, you know, stops before he's going to dive into the lake to get ahead. Like, what will you give me if I do this? And she's like, why would you ask me that? Why would you ever ask me that? Yeah, because the transactional because that's throughout the entire movie is this, that he's so transactional about everything and that's, that's not virtuous, that's not selfless. That's not a night. That's, that's, it reminded me more of like, almost like he picked that up from the thief earlier. You know, my direction is not worth anything to you. Everything is about money. Everything's about not money necessarily, but everything's about what do I get, you know? You know? Yeah. And then, and then, yeah, that connects to the original poem with the, uh, the Huntsman. I mean, because that's, I mean, that's in this too, but it's very different um, of just, you know, the give me whatever you get will trade. And what did you, what did you think about that in the movie? Because in the poem, I mean, they don't kiss, right? But, uh, but um, they kiss a lot more. Uh Yeah, because basically, because the thing is that like, I mean, that's, I think this is the strength of the movie. I don't, I wouldn't say it's like better. I think there's a lot of room like for any old material to remake and make in different things. I think what makes this strong is Lowry's perspective. Not that it's a definitive adaptation. It's that it's so specific and so like earnest and that, and, and it reveals a lot about, it's, it's really potent but it can't talk about everything, you know, when you're really specific that makes it strong, but it doesn't mean you can talk about every facet of the poem that you know, and um, but in the uh in the original poem, uh, Go Gowan is not like conflicted, you know, he's a, he's a good knight but he does kind of, um, is an obstacle to him with being truthful about the, uh, but I, I'm blanking on the shawl. The rap the belt is that, uh, is, is that, you know, he doesn't want to die. That's basically in the, in the poem is kind of this thing of like, and the Green Knight kind of sees that as like, ok, like he's like, you know, you should have told me, but you know, I get it. But in the poem basically is that Gowan does not give in to the temptation ever with the wife. And so he gives the Huntsman a kiss like and multiple like depending on what it was. And so after each and because he doesn't leave early, um And so the husband keeps coming back with a new, with a new kill and then Gowan gives him a kiss because that's the only thing he allowed to happen. And so that's the transaction. And so in the end, that's the thing is it's actually an opposite in the movie, he gives into the temptation, but then he actually takes off the belt in the poem, he doesn't give into the temptation and he keeps on the belt. And so the Green Knight nick him. And it's basically like you did good by not giving a temptation. She, she was meant to test you and you were honorable, but you should have given me that you should have not done the belt. That, that wasn't good. But you're a good guy. I'm, I'm just gonna give you a neck, I'm just gonna give you a neck and then Gowan is very ashamed and he keeps the belt and he takes it back to Camelot and they all wear belts as like a reminder of the lesson of like, of this, this kind of reminder of the shame of like, that's really interesting. Um to, to, to be a reminder, to be honest, you know, it's kind of that kind of thing. II I liked the way they adapted it in the movie because it all kinds of ties into his personal struggle to sort of like, not just grow up, but the sort of if he, if he truly wants to be a knight to become virtuous in all those ways and become brave and like, there's all these different things are like relying, I mean, the belt's a crutch, right? It's like, how can you truly be brave if you know you're not going to get hurt? Yeah, that, that, that's what I think, you know what I mean? It's like, how can you truly be brave if it's like, you know, you're gonna be safe in that way? Like, so that's why I, I really love that. He, I, I really like that fake out where you see this whole life he could have had, but it seems so miserable. He's like, you know, people don't love him. It's just like, what, what's that for? And just taking off? I love, I just love that choice at the end. I think it's great. And I, and I really like, and David Lowry said that he wanted uh Ralph Enerson to play the Green Knight like Santa Claus at the end there where you like, like a twinkle in his eye, which I do think captured like, I love that part because obviously throughout this, which is not in the poem is like, uh it's weirdly sort of perhaps, well, pretty explicitly. It's, it's something designed by his mother and in some ways, well, he's not, she's not his mother, but Morgan Lafa did it all because she wants you to die of shock or something. I think it was, yeah, she's like, but I, I really like the choices to make this more about his story, like in, in, in his journey, like making her uh Morgan Lee's mother. And like, really it's designed, it's like a, it's most sim like I was telling we were talking about when we were watching. It's like, it's most simplistic, it's parents trying to like, push their kid out of the nest and be like, you need to stand on your own 2 ft. You know, you need to grow up like Arthur kind of talks about that too, you know, I, I like that. I like that. That's what the movie's about. I don't know, I know that, but that's really interesting. Well, I mean, I think it's just like about, like, what you, what the utility of a story is because, I mean, I think, I think there's like, II, I think this is a really great way of exploring, like, kind of the idea of virtue in a way of like using the poem uh to like try to and, and then using a very personal, like kind of modern character to try to get you to interact with this material. And this idea of like chivalry and like, what does it mean to be honorable or to, you know, do what's right, you know, such as holding open doors or? Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, I mean, like, uh because I thought that was very interesting when I, when I first saw it was, I was like, man, this is like, kind of like, uh more about like, I don't know, chivalry like p um virtue and it is this kind of thing that it's, it's, you know, the chivalric, the chivalric system, whatever is like something that it's one of those things that probably never existed. It's one of those things that's always the generation before that had it and you're writing about everything sucks now, you know, like it doesn't exist and uh but it's um like everyone used to be chaves now, Knights stink, you know, it can be that kind of vibe. I think it, I think I was surprised when I saw the movie, like, how much it was about that kind of, um, that subject of virtue. And I think that's the power of making it whenever you adapt something so old, it's like you have to make your decisions about what you're gonna update and what you're going to try to stay true to, to, to nail whatever angle you want, whatever you want to talk about. And I think it was like, I really want to talk about this subject of virtue and like coming to terms with it and being afraid and like, I think that was such a great decision by him to make the character more conflicted and more modern and really like that be a through line to really be able to do it. My wife and I were talking about it again afterwards just like, really, like breaking down like each scene. Like, what is this? How does this plan do I like? How does this? Because then, yeah, the relationship with Huntsman and his wife is very interesting. I really like that about this. Like the, the every, like that was almost more like a thriller in some ways to me. Like it was like quietly strange, like they both felt like they were playing tricks on him and like manipulating him in certain ways, which I really liked. I mean, I love that. I love it. Well, I like those pockets of, like, changing, like these kind of, like, I don't know, everyone, sort of like he feels like that, especially when he sets off into the world. Like, he sort of got this arrested development, sort of this kind of, I don't know, like, not ready for the world. Like, those thieves are able to very quickly take advantage of him. Like, I think he, he has, let's say he's a little green. Uh, and he's, huh? And then so basically, yeah, exactly. So, I, I like seeing him sort of the world forcing him to grow up in those ways. But I liked seeing people manipulate him in different ways. Like, some of it's more over and some of it's kind of sly and interesting. Like, I really like that about the Huntsman and his wife because especially with her mother or his mother was that old woman, the blind woman. The most I can thing is that I, I feel like she's maybe just an avatar for his mother. I, I feel like that's the most likely explanation because I know, I know we had a friend that thought it was like the other sister of Arthur's, which is, which in the, in, in, like, uh, in Lamo dur is, is, uh, is, um, what's her name, Morga? But she's not like she does. She's not into magic. Like Morgan Lafe is, and that's actually Gin's mother is Morgause. But Yeah. So I, I feel like the most likely explanation is like, that's her, like, checking in or something. I don't know. But, yeah, it's like, intentionally left pretty open, you know. Well, she did, she did a lot of the same mannerisms, like the face thing with the hand, like, a lot of people do that to him. Which is interesting. It's like, that's kind of almost like a, it's almost kind of like a theme throughout the movie of people touching Gowan's face. It's weird, like how much people like the green, I would see them do that. And I'd be like, are you checking to see if he has a fever? Like, I mean, that's what you do to a little child. But it's interesting. Yeah, like Morgan Le Fay, Arthur Green Knight, his mother, this maybe mother avatar, like they all do that to him. The Huntsman Huntsman does. But do they all do the same across the forehead and then along the cheek, that's what the, the mom does, the forehead to the cheek and the, the blind blinded, blindfolded woman does that too. So that could try to connect them. And there was another thing that she did that was mimicked of what the mother did. So to me, I thought it was like the mom, what's like in that person's body, which could be so like, it feels like the mom has a presence the whole time. Like, especially with the fox and the fox is warning and like all these tests to kind of like giving him an out in different ways to come back to test him. Especially at the end with the green knight when he says, like, my brave knight, like that felt like to me, the mother speaking personally, I didn't, we didn't talk about the green knight's design. Yeah, that's, that's another interesting thing because, I mean, I was reading that it's possible that the night was never green and that's like, possibly a translation error. Yeah. Possibly. Yeah. I, I've heard a little bit about that. I haven't gotten too deep into it, but it's like a singular theory, you know. But, but he's not like in the film, like, made of the tree, like he's almost like, oh, yeah, in the, in the poem, basically, traditionally what he would be, he's just like a really big dude. He's like a really big dude and he actually is like, really ornately dressed. Like, it's like, it spends like an entire page just talking about all the grap on him, like, just like all these like designs and like, you know, and uh stitching and stuff. And then, um, and then, yeah, but then it says, talks about his green beard, his green face, you know, it's like, so it is like, yeah, so it is, it is, and that is a thing of like, of like Lowry getting into this, like creating these clear dichotomies that aren't necessarily conscious or clear in the poem of like nature versus this, you know, Christianity versus paganism, which like, you know, in a medieval poem is just a melding. It's not, they're not thinking about a dichotomy, but it's a very like, kind of, you know, modern way of like structuring themes, you know. Um So I think it is, it is really interesting to make him like, out of wood, out of natural things. Like, you know, he's, he's a part of the part of the, this gambling chapel. He's part of the nature, which is something I love is uh when Garwin is waiting and he like the green eye opens his eyes for a second, I love that scene closes on it sort of morphs into Arthur's and into his mother's and like that. Uh And that's, and that's also another interesting thing of like making and traditional somewhat, not, not from that era, but from almost recently of like making paganism a thing of the earth. Like, you know, we can almost like, you know, making those very clear distinctions, you know. Um And of course, the uh the wife makes the argument that green's not unnatural, you know, which, that, that, that would be kind of different from a medieval interpretation, you know, because I think he definitely in the poem, he's like, yeah, he's unnatural. Strange. This is a, because he's not, has, he doesn't have leaves or trees. He's just like a dude who's green. So, it's like, yeah, this is, this is where this guy come from. What he's enchanted. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Which is, which is a hard thing to pull off. I mean, I've seen sort of the valiant and a glittery Sean Connery is, doesn't work that great. It's true. Like it be goofy. But honestly, I, I, I would like to see a good version of that. Like, I, I like the, I like the challenge of keeping old forms and then trying to make them work, you know, of not updating things. I, I don't think it'd be better but I, I think you learn a lot about those things by being true to them. But then, but then it's very difficult because you're like, OK, how do I make it work because tastes change while also being, you know, but we, you know, we see that in a lot of stuff but I do think I do like how he does feel huge. He's very heavy. Yeah. And I, I really like basically his entire introduction. Like I love from cutting, like burning that fire, the, the letter immediately. He's there like Waltz is on the horse. He looks heavy, he looks huge. Something like a Clydesdale or a look alike. Clydesdale too. Beautiful, beautiful prosthetics. Like I like then too, you don't really, you never see like his dialogue come out of his mouth. You'd see it come out of lady gu beer. Yeah. Only when he like, reminds them of the timeline after his head's off one year. Awesome. I love the headless thing. I mean, I'm a huge, I love the headless horseman who likes to Hall. So, like, that's, that's a lot of fun riding out of that. It's funny, I think in the poem, this would be another interesting thing to see. I think in the poem. One thing is that, that's another interesting thing is that the, the green night is extremely boastful. He talks a lot and he, because that's the thing is you basically have this green ostentation dressed dude come in and just like roast you like, you ain't gonna do, you're not gonna do anything, you're not gonna, you're not gonna do s**t, you know. It's like, and then they, and they like Arthur now that's what gets Arthur gassed up. It's like, you know, does he not fight at all in the poem? Does he still do a similar like, yeah, he still like, basically just present himself. And also, um he, he gives him the ax, he's like, do it with the ax. So they sort of reference that in the movie where the legend where the guy's like in, with his own. Yeah, exactly where it's different than it was. Yeah, exactly. And so in the poem, he hes so it is this thing of return of the blow like Goans not confused about whether it's a fight. He understands that it's the game. Although, um, yeah, we can get into that actually. That's interesting about that. But, um, I know in the, in this movie that he's supposed to be like naive, young, not super smart, but he has, he clearly has the potential of being like a, a knight, but he has to like grow up, right? Which is the whole point of the movie. Is it just that he, uh, doesn't want to embarrass himself in front of all these other knights of the round table. And that's why he does like, his head cuts off his head. Or I think it's because I, I think it gets into the thing of just like being insecure about the fact that he's done nothing like he's, he's basically just grown up in kind of this hedonistic. But like, why wouldn't you? I mean, I know he's not an idiot, right? Like, why wouldn't you just like, think I'm gonna play the long game on this, like, I'll, I'll cut off, I don't know, a finger or hand something menial. And then, and then, you know, and a year later you come back and you're like, I best at all of you. Like, I know that that's clever, but it's not cool is honestly what I would say. Like, I, I honestly, I think the green knight is presenting his head, like, cut off my head. But I think what it is is like, OK, so if you just nicked him Yeah, you saved yourself, but that tells everyone else. You're sort of like, you, you're weak. You know what I mean? You were too afraid the king, the king, not king Arthur says, uh, is, remember it's a game like you don't have to kill him, I think. And I think that, I mean, I mean, I think that is just the conflict of like, yeah, like an old man with a lot of wisdom that's seen, seen great feats and kind of hack can put it in perspective and it's someone that longs for because because I mean, like, I mean, I don't know, it's like it's an, it's an entire entirely different old value system of like on feats. That's not a legend, that's not something people are gonna talk about. Yeah, it was smart. They're not gonna travel a puppet show around the land showing what happened. Like I think he, he understands in that moment. That's why he says, like, tell everyone what happened here today. Like, and I think in his, his own mind, he didn't truly believe in the game. And I think that's what he says a year later is he's like, but like when you see a man made of f**king wood, but the thing is that like, but it's like, that's, it's kind of like if that's the logic then that would just also extend to don't go, go, don't go to him after the year. One of the versions, not versions but it didn't he do this to somebody else? Isn't that what in that feature that we said that somebody else did it? But they never showed up or something. They, they did the game with the Green Knight but they just never showed up. They, like, they just didn't, I mean, I know there's other legends about, there's other beheading game legends in, like, welsh mythology and stuff. But I don't, I'm not sure. I, I think it's purely, it's like something you see now, like it's not that cool. Like, is it cooler? Like, oh, you know, I rode my bike over this little tiny bump or I rode off a freaking canyon and it was awesome. But think about it, you could have, it could have been spun if he didn't freak out and panic like he did when the green knight didn't start to fight him. You would have said, ok, well, I'm not going to strike a blow on you if you don't fight me, I'm, I'm an honorable knight. I will not fight a defenseless person. You're too clever. That's not what was happening. But that's a knight, right? Like a knight is an honorable person that doesn't, doesn't fight. But these are all old a*s knights sitting around this round table. They're all legends who have done all these legends and they, the, the whole, his whole learning lesson is to be honorable and to have valor and all that stuff and but part of it is like, you don't strike a defenseless person, right? Like, isn't that part of being a knight? I don't think so. I mean, I kill in, this is the game though. These are the rules that are set. I mean, I think it was, it was foolish of him but like the idea that it's, that it's like, kind of, I mean, those nights all knew that that was dumb because there was a clear pause of silence. And then somebody was like, let's clap. The thing is though that Arthur and Gwen just like, gassed him up, they just talked to him for a while about how he hasn't, you know, he, he has no stories to tell. He hasn't, you have no stories to tell yet. Like someday you'll do something worth talking about. And here, I mean, the opportunity was designed for him in the, in the context of the movie. He has no tale to tell now because what else has he done that show? But what else in his life has he shown that? That's so you think? Sorry? So, so you, you think at the end of the movie he died? I think that the obviously the intention of him being playful at the end is that you learned your lesson, good job. Now go away. But part of me is like, well, he just stay off with his head at the end. So like, well, it's interesting because I have read that Lowry toyed with a more explicit ending. I personally love how ambiguous the ending is and I do think because of the twinkle, like now off with your head, like he, he's not actually going to kill him. I think he's mock, like, kind of teasing him there. I don't think he died. I mean, a part of me doesn't think that, but I, I still, I don't know, I would still think that he completed the game. Well, what, what do you, how do you interpret the ending? Ben? I mean, obviously, I mean, I mean, yeah, it's tough because it already so much of the stuff is like opposite of what happens. So if, if you just, if you just go with the pattern, it's the opposite of that he died. But I, I mean, I like that's the thing is that like within that it's hard to say with that, with that system of like this moral system in the movie, it's very different. Um, I mean, in my, in my heart of hearts, I hope that he lives and that the Green Knight saw that this, this was the lesson that he learned. He achieved it. He saw the potential of his future and how bad it could be and, and that he could live his life better and be a different man, a changed man, a knight if he wanted to be. And hopefully that this taught him that. But also I don't know everything else leading up to. It was very like he, he kind of got off easy with all these people like it, it, all of them, like, especially at the, the Lord's house. All that stuff was very eerie and scary. Like I was waiting for something to, like, flip on him and he is in mortal danger. But then he's like, no, I just want to kiss, no, like I, you're just a boy like whatever. But in in this case, the kiss that the hunt Huntsman takes. That's not what Garwin should have given him. Right? Because that's, that's not what Garwin got. Like he got a lot more than that. I think he leaves. I don't think he was ever in danger of being killed in that situation. I think that with deep shame and like, no, but my point is that all of these challenges he's faced, he was never in mortal danger other than other than the thieves. That was the only time I could have killed him, he could have drowned in the water, drown in the water. I was expecting a freaking weird monster magic. But you know, like all of these other than the thieves, him being tied up. Like I love that showing like this could be what happens. But I would say he was overall kind of fine, like starved to death. I'm talking about, he was kind of fine. I don't know. I feel like it could have been more perilous. Well, I mean, I think that's the thing is that, like, that's the whole thing of, like, this old world morality is that it's self imposed. I mean, like, I mean, like, I don't like a Lord of the Rings Quest. I mean, so the fact that, like, I mean, the whole thing that, that's, I guess that's the whole thing is that what ultimately is honorable is this thing of like giving yourself over to the potential of being of dying because of this ethic, you know, this virtue. Like, it's not, there's nothing holding him to that. It's just like a collective belief that this is what's honorable, you know. So, I mean, I mean, well, and I think that's why he was spared and I think that's the subtext of the movie is like, because of this whole journey he went on and he does make the right choice at the end. Like he doesn't just like, accept, you know, he kicks the belt off, he didn't run away. He's like, I'm ready. I mean, within the context of the, unless in the context of the poem, I guess it would be like, I mean, two things I think of are when, uh, the Huntsman says, like, um, kind of ask him about like, so you just have to do this one thing and you'll be, you'll be, um, honorable, you'll have honor. And, uh, and that's kind of an opposite of the poem in a way because in the poem, he is honorable and he's keeping his honor by, by keeping his word is that will make him dishonorable, is not keeping his word. And then, um and, and then within the context of the poem, what makes him honorable is not giving into the temptation Gowan does in this, but then he doesn't hide the belt. So it's the question of like, is this enough in that kind of moral system? Is that enough for this green night to show mercy? Does, is this an action where it's like you've, you've paid for giving in to the temptation or you know, it's like also the temptation I felt was more with the lady than with the lord of the manor. Well, that's what, that's what he's talking about. That's the, you said the kiss she did, he also kiss the lady? No, no, that she, that she seduced him and he gave in. He's like, oh, sorry, I thought you said he still a kiss. I thought that's what the Huntsman did the Huntsman did, which is a reversal of the poem where basically whenever the wife tries to seduce Gowan, he kind of disarms her by just letting her give him a kiss. And then he, and then when he meets the Huntsman, he'll give him a kiss. So he actually does give, he keeps his word and gives the Huntsman what he got. And in this one, he doesn't give the Huntsman anything. And the Huntsman was like, you got something I know you do. And then just like how we like, you know, go when he's, when he's like, I want it, I want it and now he's like, I'm going to take it, you know, I'm gonna take the thing that you got because I was gonna say he didn't give him that kiss, which comes back into the whole transactional thing of like that. He's not willing to, he's not willing to, to give what's owed to me. That also felt like he's not willing to play the game, just like with the Green Knight. Like he, he joined this game, but he's not willing to play it. You know what I mean? He's not playing it by the by the rules. So to my, to my, to my perspective, I don't quite know what the ending would be. But to me, it would be a question of, did the ultimate question would be, did the Night show mercy? That's, that's would be the deciding factor to me because I feel like within the world of the movie and of the poem, the Green Knight still has the, has the right to kill Gallen. And so I think it's, I think it's just the question of like, which is still not a clear answer. Did he show mercy? Do you fully believe in the context of the movie that The Green Knight is a separate entity? From the mother because I think it's pretty apparent that if she's not controlling him, he, he's some kind of avatar for her, which would be different from the, yeah. But I think that's given the mother a lot of power in this situation that she's just following him the whole time. She sort of is. And I think that's apparent throughout the movie she's sort of watching over him the whole time. I know. but I think that they summoned the Green Knight and she set up the game, she wrote the letter, right? But she summoned the Green Knight. She did, she did whatever. Yeah. And that's what, and that's what's hard to know what, what it is in the movie versus the poem. Because the poem she enchanted that Huntsman like that guy's a guy and, and then, and he becomes, he becomes the green knight because of Morgan Lee. But he's, he's still a real guy and he reveals himself at the end of the poem, the Lord is the green knight in the poem. And basically at the end, he reveals that like, hey, I'm actually that dude and uh oh and so that's why he knows that he was honorable and, and, and he put his wife up to testing him and everything and uh, yeah, because that, that cool, but I really like that in the movie because obviously looking through a modern lens, it felt more like, I don't know, they were like a strange, strange couple and the Lord is probably, I mean, they didn't feel like a real couple in this matter. Well, it felt like they, they, they play games with each other. Like, I was afraid of Virginia Woolf kind of couple and to the point of like, they play games and this is what they do and like, maybe the Lord is gay and this is something they kind of do. We just had to be married to because it's that time or something. And that's not knowing the context of the poem. But like, that's sort of what I got as a modern interpretation and to the point of like, maybe them not being real. I mean, I mean, it's like there is that line we won't be here, which is kind of almost a double meaning left. The berry killed. That was a bore. I thought that was really an eerie line of him being like when you come back, we will no longer be here, which, you know, and I'll reveal a thing that Brian loved uh after this movie, after we watched it, I didn't realize that it was the same actress playing the two. The ladies, Lisa is both. I didn't even notice I'm so bad with faces and she transformed a holding herself different, different posture. I love both characters she plays and I, I thought it was sad the first time, but I'm really like the scene that really strikes a nerve with me is sort of a, me, I think her name's Essel, the, uh, um, prostitute character when she's talking to him and sort of like, like bits where she's like, why can't you, why do you have to be great? Why can't you just be good? What's wrong with being good? And I love the bit where she's like, you know, talking, it's almost sad like this. Like, it could be your lady like that kind of bit. If uh if it's not his mother, I think, I think if it's his mother, he probably got spared. If it's not his mother. The compelling reason why to me it could be that he got killed is because it's finally the one thing he pays for. Yes. Yeah. See, that's, that's why I think like, yeah, he learned his lesson right at the end, at the tail end in the final second because the Green Knight let him flinch three times. Ok? I would 100% think he has. Ok. He learned it but like too late. Like you messed up on everything else. I really don't believe he died at all. And this is what you pay for. Like you didn't have to play it this way, you know. And that's the thing is that is, that is a medieval kind of Christian, like kind of like virtue thing that like morality is beyond utility. Like it, it is this thing that you strive to regardless of what its effect on your life or anything like that like it was, right? But for me, the whole, regardless of what happens to me, wait, wait, wait, if you guys were the green knight, what would your verdict have been to Sir Gwin within my own moral frame. I'm the green, if you're the green knight and you witness because you have this magical power, you saw everything that he did, right? You have some third eye to be able to see what he did with the thieves, with uh uh Winifred. Um and the lord and the lady, what, what would your ultimate verdict be by the end of it in my own brain? I would, I would, I would let him go because his, his journey and narrative, narratively, the way the movie structured each challenge testing him. It feels like a morality play. Like it feels like a almost like a fairy tale where it's like you made the right choices in the end like you had opportunities to leave like I love when the fox because he fell in the middle ground. Oh, he wasn't so terrible that he didn't leave because Lady Winfred didn't offer him something in exchange. Therefore he's good. He's good because he ended up helping her, you know, and that's a lesson that's different. Yeah, because she was because she was assy to him, ok? But that's part of learning the lesson like this is OK. And for this it's like he's main character syndrome. Literally, he's the main character and the world is designed around making him a better person this way. But anyways, I like at the end where he has the opportunity to leave, he envisions what could happen if he runs away. The fox says you can leave and I won't tell anybody and nobody will know and you can just make it up. He has all those opportunities and he chooses not to and then he has the opportunity to be completely spared no matter what happens. And he removes that too night in the green field. That's sort of fun. Ok. I like that, which is what ready for some scary takes. So we did the rest of the podcast off recording the podcast is over. How did we, did you say? Oh yeah. Is this, is this, is this horror kind of, do you want to start with that question again? So I was wondering, do you guys consider this a horror movie or like I know there's genre elements in it, but would you classify it as a horror movie? I would not, I wouldn't either. I would, I would, I would consider it like medieval fantasy slash horror because I think there's more, more horror elements than not. I think there's enough of a through line of horror elements that it fits for me for sure. It's not just like, oh, it's a movie with one scary scene like there are quite a few scary and unnerving and, like, subtly horror elements. I mean, there's a lot of imagery of like, I mean, especially even, even in moments where the scene wasn't scary necessarily, like, it wasn't a horror scene like him, um, ambushed by the thieves and left to die just the way they shoot it with him being then left. Like it shows him rodded away, like, as a skeleton like that, that kind of imagery is for me, it's more, less horror Jason and more horror period. It's just horror. I don't know, I don't know. I mean, for me, I guess I didn't, I didn't grow up with, with much like horror proper. So like, for me, like, because it's so rooted in myth, I just associate it with those things that happen in myths, you know, like, like, so, so for me, like, they're, they're um, I guess they, they have something to do with that, those emotions. But like, uh I guess that's the thing is I think, I guess I see them as the genres are so separate in my mind. But um but it definitely like, owes things to horror for sure. Like, I mean, like, like all the, like, you know, the very specific, like Charo stuff in the in Winifred's scene with all the slat of slats of light and how it shot and it cut and it's like, you know, that's definitely not ignorant of horror and even you know, for me it's the choosing of the way of the Green Knight's introduction because it's framed as scary, especially with the, with chanting, you know, the way that she reads it, the way the light changes, green, her eyes are kind of demonic glazed. Yeah, exactly. I think there's more choices to make scenes horror than not because that is interesting how, like in the poem, you don't, you don't know any of the back story till the very end. Like, because this is like, it's kind of upfront with like the, like the what's happening, you know, and, and the whole slicing off of the head and when he holds the head head speaking and riding off, I mean, he does the, the headless horseman ride. That was one thing that was, that was one thing I was gonna say real quick in the original poem. One thing I'd like to see a version of that someone cuts is that in, in the poem, he cuts off the head and then the green light catches it before it falls on the ground. He just goes, oh, that's sort of cool. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I want to see that version. That's it. But yeah. No, it's very like, yeah, the blood splattering everywhere, kind of like seeing the corpse rise up and everything. It's definitely spooky. I mean, in the way he says it to when he finally speaks to the disembodied head one year and then he runs out. I love it. I, there's something visually about seeing a headless person riding a horse holding their own head. That to me it's like milk and cookies to Santa. I love it. I love seeing that. I think it does something in my brain. Is it, is it probably because of uh Irving. That's probably the earliest thing I can think of because, you know, it's like American folklore, Sleepy Hollow, like drawing that kind of thing. A kind of stories like that uh like way back when of people that are still alive and the head got drop off. There is this little bar in um or county called The Quiet Woman. And on every menu, it says like the folklore of the Quiet woman. And it's this old story about how a woman I think she like stole some chickens or something. And so to be punished, she got her head chopped off. But the end of the story is that she like walks back to like this um market or whatever with her head in her hand and like obviously her head's off her head or off her body. But have you never seen either? How is this the first time hearing about this? Stop the recording? I told you about this place. No way. I've only been there like once or twice because my parents would go like at night because it becomes like a they play music and it becomes like a live band and it's tiny. He's just shaking with jealousy. I'm like, it's a place I've, I've literally only been there twice and it's a tiny, tiny place but it's very popular in Orange County and, and then they just have that. I think the person, I don't know who the owner is, but they must just love that story. And yeah, it's just a great name because she's a quiet woman. She can't speak anymore, but she's walking around with her head off, taking the belt off and his head falling off at the, in the flash forward. That's a great, that makes me think of brothers grim stuff. Well, even, especially we talked a bit off Mike but like the opening the way it's read clearly scary sounding voice over. Yeah, it's scary. The Flaming Crown. That's a great shot. I mean, there's so much horror imagery in it and the way the tone of it is scary, it's like meant to feel like that, I guess, I guess to me, I also read that it's just like so like somber and like, because the thing is that there's so much like, I mean, I guess that's the thing it's like in, like, in like myth and religion. It's like there is so much like crazy imagery that just kind of is and it is like, kind of like, almost awe inspiring, kind of scary mix, like kind of what lovecraft pulled from probably, you know, not quite all the way there. But it definitely hints at it, like, heavily hints at it. I see there, like, if it's more scary than not because it's like, it's like, it's like that feeling because sometimes I get that feeling from watching, watching Myth that it's like powerful, kind of aggressive imagery. It's almost like when, like, you have like the, like, like Christian prophets talk about like, in revelation, like, like the, the biblically what people call, like, the biblically accurate angels with like tons of eyes and it's like, this is scary. This is scary but be not afraid, you know, it's like, so there's like, almost that element to me when I'm seeing some of this stuff that it's just, it's intense but it's not necessarily about a threat. It's like, it's just like, yeah, this, like, kind of somber elevated feeling of, like, you know, the sublime or something. That's it. But, um, but yeah. No, I mean, it's definitely, yeah, it's aggressive and I also, I think fantasy often dips into horror a lot. Yeah, for sure. Because it's, you could probably say it's like a weird cousin of horror in a way. But because it, because fantasy can be romantic to scary all in the same in a lot of fairy tales are pretty scary. A lot of them are legit probably. I would consider them like, more horror tales than anything else. Yeah, they're really violent, you know, the big bad wolf. So now we've broken down the whole movie and said, whether it's horror or not, uh, what's the scariest scene in the green? Right? When you, right, when you've seen his green skin, what is it? Why is it? We had a lot of debate about this. Not a lot of debate. We had a little bit of debate because I think we all came in sort of with a different, originally, a different, like idea of the scene. We all, we all had different scenes, Ben, you don't know all of our scenes, but you had a different from what the introduction of the Green Knight was the scariest because the way the scene is, it's a scary scene like he looks scary. You know, it's shot to be scary, the green light, like especially when lady gu the voices, the double voices, you know, it's scary at all. I think he looks cool. Yeah, he's cool, but he's still scary looking like the whole getting his head. I'm strangely attracted the fear. But yeah, the most overtly horror bit is with Saint Winifred like that chapter. But specifically the scene is when he's so uh Garwin has just dived into the lake to fetch the severed head, uh which is just a skull and he's bringing it back into the house, which is lit. Very creepy at night. It's a, it's a disheveled abandoned house. Probably the most stylized lighting gets in the movie I would say so it's like where it's almost like you don't know where the direction of the lights coming from. But it's crazy these really long slats and it's like, is that the moon, is it? You know, and there's something about when he first arrives at the house, it's just a really dark kind of abandoned house. Like, I don't think it's scary. Like, you know, he grabs the bread and it crushes an ash. He's like, oh, it's been a man's here. But for some reason when he returns to the house with the head, I think you're now looking at the house in the new light and it feels scary because he's walking up the steps and he, and he walks in with the head and now you see the bed he was sleeping in, there's a corpse there, the skeleton there that the skeleton, that's a really fun feeling because like we saw him sleep in the bed and there was no body, like was that body there the whole time? You know, or see it? That's cool. But then, you know, when he's walking to carry the head, he looks down and now the head is no longer a skull and it's just a severed head like freshly severed head of Winifred. It's hard for me to remember exactly like all the emotions I felt, I feel like the Winifred scene that was the most, I felt like the kind of like tingling. Like because I think just being because that's something I'm not familiar with. It's like, it's like, that section is like, derived from like one line in the poem basically just mentioning. And it's not even, it's just like a tangential thing he mentions that it goes by Holyhead, which is evidently where whenever it would have been beheaded. And, um, so that's that kind of inclination because I wasn't familiar with that story. It's like some Celtic mythology thing with a saint. And, uh, but, um, so like the opening scene, even though it is horror code in a way, there's also just a little bit of like, I was hyped because it's like, oh, I'm seeing this version, you know, because I've seen other versions of it. And so it's like, so I'm also just in the mode of like, you know, so, so I think that was like, also, I didn't know what was going to happen, you know, I know what's gonna happen with, you know, go on the green night and I'm looking for how they're doing each beat because I know the beats. And so there is that kind of subjective element too that I might have been a little removed because I'm already thinking about other stuff while I had like, kind of the ability to not know what's going on in that, in that Winifred scene. It's also a good, like jump scare of him holding the school and then you cut back and it's, it's her eyes open or whatever. And that scares the head on the ground. And then she, she talks to him is someone, you know, is what she says, right? And I love that little, that wide shot of her head on the ground with her face in shadow and just the highlight on the side of her. It's like just such a great stark shot. I love that. And then his good deed brings him the ax just waiting for him another chance. I really like that scene because it feels just like a little pocket ghost story. Like such a strange and obviously the whole, the whole bit where like, I love the first time he meets her and she glides across the floor and he looks scared, like, was he like, asked her if she's real or if she's a spirit? She's like, what's the difference? She's very, like, strange with him with that and that, and that, that landed with the audience that we saw it with, did it land your first viewing too with the audience? Because I remember, I remember, I remember distinctly being like, oh, these, these kind of two jokes landed, you know, with her. He had been don't touch me. And also they're like, why would you ever ask me about that? I remember that really, the audience really working with it. And um, and I love when she is explaining how she died. And she, it's like the first reference that she can't like see him really where she says like maybe it is the, she doesn't know. But then, but then later she says now I can see you, right? She says something like that. I can see you now, like once he brings the head back, she can actually see him. I thought that was really interesting reading into it. Do you think that maybe it was another way of saying like he could have been that man. I see that you or something this, this, that you, you, you are very similar to that guy that killed her, a man without honor, kind of thing. And now that you helped save me, I see you as not directly like him, but Leo could have been, I think, I think it could be, I think it's implying that he could have been that if he kept on the same path and he scurried back home and didn't continue forward. And I think, I think that like the story of her beheading is again like a thing of like, I want something you're not going to give it to me, like kind of, you know, like it's kind of another transactional thing like him in 30 years. If things really didn't work out just a man that's always used to getting what he wants without having to give anything. And then that moment in his life and fate where she's like, oh your fate has now changed. And like, it's like seeing the painting change on the wall, like it was this shadowy figure and now it's the light, you know, it's like your fate has changed. That's interesting reading. I mean, iii, I like, I mean, I think it's good that it doesn't have a hard dividing line between its horror elements and it's not horrors because honestly, like, if you just go back for, for far enough, it's just like those genre distinctions don't really exist as much and they become more, it's like, you know, with like music genres where it's like, oh, it's, it's the soft core f**king, you know, Microtonal, you know, it's like, it's like, it's like kind of a, it's after the fact, you know, and like, and that's the thing is like, when I go back and I remember in college reading some kind of like American gothic, like early American novels and it's like, there's a lot of scary stuff in them, but you don't really get the sense that it's like, oh, this is in the a section of the library for, you know, like, it's just like scary things are a part of stories, you know, and um and I think that helps that it's not like, super clear. And I think too, there was definitely a period where horror specifically was, I don't know, there was some kind of derision or something like people didn't like it. Like, it was considered like low brow for like a long time. So nothing wanted to classify. Oh, yeah. And I mean, even like, what I was talking about, like, American Gothic, those were, those were like, not highbrow novels, you know, there was definitely because it's like, all these, like, kind of low, you know, just like reading stuff for, for the salaciousness or like, of, like, you know, a high, like, whoa, what's gonna happen, you know, it's scary, you know, rather than like, oh, we're gonna process some literary, you know, you know, the great novel. But yeah, so I, I think that, I think that works that it's, it's trying to be a little less like conscious of what. Now, here's the horror scene. Now, here's the scene, you know. Well, yeah, it's sort of weaves throughout definitely, but there's definitely many scenes that are shot to be more scared sometimes in life there a great night, you know, sometimes he's scared sometimes got a head sometimes doesn't the Lord and the lady, like I was always on, like, I'm uncertain of just going into a stranger's home and tell your ins and, and that has an undertone of horror that eeriness you don't know. And that's just life, you know, life does have the Lord has a bit about that. I like where he says, like, you know, this house has as many mysteries, you know. So like, that was really interesting. I, I honestly, when we watched it the other day, II, I forgot like, what the end. Like, I knew he got to the green night but I forgot what they did to him and I blanked and I was like, oh, like when he says, uh, in the, by the fireplace after her monologue, you know, like, whatever you get, like, give it to me as well. And, like, my only thought in my head I to, I forgot the whole kiss. I forgot all that. I, I was like, oh, well, it's like a life. Like it's like something more mortal. Like it's gonna be like a life for life or something like that. Like some, I went very dramatic, especially because it is like a vague because he's like, this is your house. Like, what do I, what is here? That's not already yours? Yeah. So to me, very mysterious, my immediate thought was something of his body, which it is, but I didn't go in like a, it is a mysterious house. There's a strange woman with like in the middle ages. It's like that blind woman and like, it's a strange house. Like, especially with them saying like we won't be there when you get back. My wife and I were joking the other day, we were after we watch it, we were like the real scary scene because we knew, you know, the podcast was scary. Like the scariest scene is getting jacked off against your will. Like, that's the, that's the real horror wasn't really against his will. Though he was down with it. Uh I mean, I mean, I think that's the thing that we were talking about, it was like, I mean, from a, from a completely modern perspective that would be, you know, that would be like coercion and like, non con, but it does play into the time and, and I think anything like this, you have to see it from both perspectives. You have to like, also, like, it is talking about medieval morality and like think about it from that perspective as well. Not, not everything's like a guideline. Like this is the movie you watch to figure out how to act out in the light in your real life. It's like you're having a hard decision at work. Watch G on the Green Night and, and I know the right decision also, you know what I thought when they uh the thieves came and stole his belt, he cut it. So to me, I thought the immediately, no matter what happened. If he got it back or not, the magical ability of it was gone. I was just gonna ask about the belt. What did you think about the lady having the same belt? Yeah, that's interesting because that's the, in the poem. That is who has it? That's who, that's the first time it originates. But it was, she gives it to him in the poem because since Morgan, since Morgan, LAFA is not really, she's, she is just the the woman at the manor and there is no mother in Camelot. Um Then it's like that's where it originates. It's part of the temptation basically. But um but yeah, the fact that they had it, like, I guess that also feels like it bolsters the whole the woman is the avatar like it all is part of the plan of the mothers, really the puppeteer in the whole situation. A very, a very elaborate not prank but like, yeah, sure you put your son on. It's like, well, it's interesting too. Like, I think about how the picture the lady takes of him is then hanging in the court vision or I was thinking about that. I was like, so he went and sent somebody to man or castle or whatever to go get it, which I thought was interesting in his vision of being king. Yeah, it's in the, it's in the court. But you don't think that the, I would have thought the magical abilities would have left when it got cut. But obviously it's repaired when she gives it back to him. And that the same one, like, I don't know, it looks exactly the same. Why wouldn't it be the same? I don't know. It's just weird. It's interesting because I didn't pay close enough attention. But I wonder if the thief that we see later when he's writing home, uh, in the like vision when he's driving home? I wonder if the, the thief kid has it on his waist because he tied it on his own waist. I'm not sure it was like a mysterious thing because the only, the only follow up. Yeah, you find is in this false vision that you see. But then you, yeah, like what happened? Like, obviously obviously got the ax back somehow. I wonder what happened to that guy. Yeah, I know. Right. Well, he says, like, don't worry, like I'll finish your quest for you. Where did you go? What do you do? Look strange? Which would be interesting. What if you, like, went over what he found the night and the night was like, get out back. So my son, what if he took it? He just took it and then my son just helped the ghost. Like I gotta give it back. I, I don't know, I don't, I don't know really how to interpret that. The cutting of it or turning of it. It's a, I'm not sure. I mean, I usually just, I think that because it's like magical thread or whatever. I don't know if it's, I know that they put this little piece of room like in it. So maybe that didn't get broken. And so it's still fine, but they used like gold thread or something crazy. And it is interesting that he doesn't really like his, his flash forward isn't him surviving? Using the the belt? It's just him like running away, you know, it's like he doesn't, like, get hit, but he's afraid to take the belt off in that vision. He keeps it on forever. But it was interesting that he doesn't necessarily survive a blow with it on. Um, which is the point of it. Right. So, like the green knight could have hit him and he would, maybe would have just gotten that nick and then would have been fine. But, I don't know. Well, I think that's what, that's what's weird is that you don't really like in either the poem or this movie, you never really get to see it really being used like it like in the poem, like the, the Nick is intentional. It's not like the belt doesn't cause the knight to give him the Nick. He, he, he, he's given the Nick as like a Yeah, he was a s**tty guy. You know, it's like, you know, it's like he kept something from me. But other than this, like he doesn't, he flees without. So it makes it in question in both of like, what does it? Does? It actually work, does it, you know, you don't really, you don't really know it either. It's a metaphor, right? It's just a metaphor of, of like, you don't need to have this protection like this magical protection around you so that you can be this great person. You already are this great person. Well, it's just a crutch. It's like this thing. Yeah, I mean, well, it's not going out on your own 2 ft. It's relying on somebody to help you. Well, I think it's, and it's a symbol of, like, he has to keep it on his whole life because he's too afraid. Like, it's a symbol of his fear. Yeah. Which is that, and that is one of the interesting things about the poem is that it keeps it on, but it's as a sign of shame, but it's like, still the same belt. So does it still have the, you know, like in terms of the perspective of the sort of is like, shame too and just say that it's a, it's a sign of shame, like, like, yeah, he takes it back and like, and also the, the, the night, the rest of the nights also start wearing one to like as like a thing to remind the, the unit, but the belt's still magical. So I'm not sure, I don't think it ever was really magical personally. In my opinion, I don't think it ever did anything, but that's what I'm saying. I mean, no matter what instance, whether you're in the story or reading the story, the poem, like the belt is just a metaphor. It is just like this symbol, this representation of, you know, if you're able to let go of it, you know, you, you can conquer anything in your life. Like that's what it's symbolizing, right? Otherwise, if you keep it on, you're not being your true self, you're not reaching your true potential. Yeah, you're held back by fear. I mean, I think, I, I think, but I think, you know, like any kind of reading, it takes different perspective to do it because, because obviously its properties matter to the metaphor because if it, if it doesn't have any properties because it's just a metaphor, then it's not really a metaphor. It has to have, it has to have properties to then be read as something, you know. So the fact that like if it, I think you can make different readings, but it's like if it is, if it does make you invulnerable, then that has one sort of reading that you can do. And if it doesn't do anything that it, you know, because that, that affects the decision the person will make, like if it doesn't do it. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. He's told that it doesn't. And so it doesn't matter if it does it or not because one, we never see if it does, right. He still is faced with, he's still, he's still put in harm's way with the thieves. But he, the thief takes it off in time before he gets tied up, but he's ambushed. So, like bad things still happen to him even when he had the belt on, you know, like the belt is, it's just, it's, it's in his mindset that he thinks he's protected. He thinks he has this, this, this wheel it's a training wheel. It's so, then I love, I was thinking more about this. Um It's so interesting, like, it's a movie where, I mean, he never battles the Green Knight. Like they never fight. I love that. Like an opening. There's no fight just kills us. And then at the end it's like leading to this third act where it's just sort of quiet and, you know, introspective and like there's no battle, they're not gearing up for. You're not fighting Sauron. At the end of the movie, you're like, you gotta go sit. And which is, which is kind of a thing of like that in the poem. It is like, it's a time of peace that we Morgan LAE is trying to like create discord, you know, it's like the whole point of it is that it's, things are going well, you know. And so it's interesting to see it in that where it's just like, it's not really, yeah, there's not really anything. It's like, King is not in danger, you know, nothing. It's just, it's just the test of will. It's just a moral problem. Did you say that the, in the poem, Mor Morgan was trying to kill Guinevere? Yeah. It's like, it's like basically said, like near the end, the Green Knight uh slash I can't, his name is long. I can't remember what his actual name is. If I just come a Huntsman, he, he, he basically says that Morgan Lee did this because she wanted like one of you to die of shock. Like, basically she like, sees this crazy thing happen with this guy, like, you know, this guy, like this beheaded guy lifting up his head and that she would just like, and, and, and it's funny because like there is like a little part where like uh Goin and Arthur both kind of like calm her down like it's alright. It's fine. It's cool. Like it's kind of like it, it's a weird little, that's why it's interesting in the movie that she's the like picked as the speaker for that and, but she doesn't seem especially rattled. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, her and Arthur both seem like they've really seen some stuff and they're quite old and like withered and they did not look well, I love that about them. You know, they looked, they looked tired very tired later when he's dying in bed. They're both in bed. No, vitamin D in this f**king grays. It's sort of romantic though. They're both dying together in bed, you know, it's Willy Wonka right there. Well, they weren't dying in Willy Wonka but we're gonna get some sunshine in this godforsaken kingdom looking sick. We should rate the scene. So that's usually what we do. Ben is the, what's the scale? So the scale is one tt is a little scary. So what's the out of 10 and 11 would be like something that's like incredibly, you know, walk in the park. It's nothing scary at all. It's rainbows, lollipops, unicorns and 10 is never sleep again, you know. Absolutely. Nightmarish. I'll do 5.5. Like it gives me, it gives me, I had some, some hair raising a little bit like it gets, it gets the eeriness going. I like the feeling. Um the jump scare was, was effective but it's more like it's, it's less thrill seeking to me that I feel like people who seek through horror and more just like mood, like the mood. I have a, a similar rating. I was going to give a 5.7 mostly for the mood and like, yeah, and I do think it's an off-putting strange, like I have no problem returning to it like, you know, but I do think in this scene, I kind of feel myself like uh Garwin where like you must have like a pit in your summer looking at that head in the corner just sitting there staring like it's a creepy feeling. I mean, the building the way it feels so like abandoned like in the middle of nowhere. Like it's like spending a night in a, you know, for a fact haunted house by yourself. Like it is unnerving and moody and it looks that way and feels that way. And I usually do it based on how I would feel in that moment. Um If I was at like, I try to put myself in that position, I'd probably be pretty scared. I mean, if I was actually there, I think it would be like, oh, yeah, when she came floating towards her, we were like, oh, you know. Yeah, but we're not doing that scene. We only the head, if I had a head come to life in my hand, I would be f**king terrified. But really what the movie played out. Like one of us, it's interesting to think about scenes in terms of like if you were there or if you were that character. Yeah, because I want to give it the full, each film, like its full potential and, and for me, because if I just did it, like I was watching it like a viewer then yeah, I mean, it's not scary. I have no threat. So to me, like I would just say everything is like at a one or a two because it's not, it's not scary. It's, it's in a TV screen, like it's made up just moving pictures. Why do we get scared of? Exactly. There's no threat. Like, I don't actually feel endangered. There are some movies that can really obviously impact you. Like in this movie. I never, I don't think my heart rate really raised or I got nervous or scared because I, you know, I didn't, it didn't impact me that way. So on movies like that, I try to be like, if I was in that I would be I'd be pretty terrified. Like, I think I would handle the situation relatively well, unknown because I've never faced a ghost or anything like that. But, so what's your, what do you rate it? I mean, I, I, and then I have to also be realistic that it, it is a movie so I split the difference. So, like, if I was in that situation it'd probably be a lot higher, but I'd probably give it a six because the, the scare with the head is it, it's good. It's a good twist because we've seen it at the beginning of the movie, right with the Green Knight. So it's not totally unknown or unexpected, but like it's still a good shock. And I do really like the head on the floor in the wide shot and her just like staring at him and talking and I'm like that, that's for me where it's really effective less when, oh, I look down and now it's ahead. It's the head on the floor still. Like that's the shot that really made me feel like, well, you know, but there is something, it is something interesting, like I don't find the image of a skull scary, but like, like I could hold a skull but holding a real head. That's creepy. It's different because for me, it's the neck hole with the bone, the neck hole. I don't like the neck hole. I've thought about it and it's, well, it's like when I see a fish head, just the bottom, the neck hole or does fish have a neck? They do have a neck, right? But you know what I mean? What cut off fish head when you see the bone and just the, that's like when you can like, yeah, when you can, like, disassociate because it's like, I mean, that's one of the things I remember hearing the whole story about like, uh this class that had a real human skeleton in it uh from like, you know, whatever science outlet that they had gotten it from. And it's just like you get used to it and everything and then they decided to do genetic testing and they found out it was like, oh, this is a woman from this part of the, it's like that. Then it gets like a little like, oh, that's creep. There's this like a real woman that lived in like South America or something like that. And they're like, it actually wasn't that long ago. It's like 18, it's like late 18 hundreds. It's not like old, old and it was like, and it's like all of a sudden, it's like, oh, you know, but it's like when you don't have any of that information, it, it's easier to not think of it as a person because it's just a skull or a skeleton, you're like, ok, it's just bones. It's hard to ever think. Like those are walking around all the time. Like, we all have those, you know, it's, it's human but weirdly when I see that, I don't think human, I just think Halloween bones, like scary skeletons. Which is interesting. I think that's one of the, that's maybe something about the opening too. That's interesting. Is that, like, it's almost like, more plausible now that you, that the Green knight can get his head back because he's so strange. He's a weird looking tree, of course. I mean, it's so weird but like, yeah, but you're like, why not? He's a tree man? Why he pick up his head? Yeah, it's all, it's like, you know, that's what you can trim, you can trim real trees and they, they're fine. You know, it's like, why not trim the tree man? True, true. Why not? I think that was the original tagline, the tree man. Merry Christmas 2021. Listen, if you, if you listen to this whole thing and you haven't seen it, you should go see it. Definitely. It's a great Christmas movie. Get all the kids Christmas Day or Christmas Eve might be better sit down and watch it. It's a great, good Christmas Eve. You know, if you want like a ghost story kind of thing. Yeah, it doesn't have like the thing I look for in Christmas movies now, which is that, I mean, like what I guess what we have now is that Christmas feeling of like hopefulness, I don't, this movie does not get a traditional, I hope because you think he died at that. I feel hopeful that now listen, I have part is when the green eye says Merry Christmas, I think he says Merry Christmas to all a good night and then he just lops off his head. We should leave at that Merry Christmas to all a green night. I have a brief moment of that hope for a split second. And then he says now off with your head and I'm like he says it playfully. I know. Sort of cute. Ain't I a stinker? No, I know he does, but I don't know. Well, let us know. Leave us a comment. Let us know we'll disagree and in one year hence, we'll all get back together and discuss it again. Yep, we should do this every year. Just argue the same thing over and over again. Four years from now I change. He died at the end. He was stupid. Well, Ben, thank you so much for joining us. It was great to talk about. I love it. The Green Knight Arthur and his knights heads on bodies or off either way, either way it's a good time. Any movie where there's someone with a head on or off. I like it. I'm there and a horse involved. You're the horse, I can take, I can take a movie without a horse, a horse with a person with their head off. It was some head off. Oh, well, because I said that earlier. I do, I do love that. I was just making a joke but I do honestly. Yeah, I am involved. Someone's doing that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was great. Happy holidays to all happy New Year, all the holidays and, uh, do me a favor as always. Stay. Bye. That, that was the color scheme when I met and soon this heart of mine was beating like sun under me. Mhm.