The Dan Abrams Podcast

Transcript

This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the James Altucher show on the Stansbury radio network. This is James Altucher. Thanks again for coming to The James Altucher Show. I'm very excited about this guest, and I, I hope you know who he is. Name's Seth Gold, basically the star of the show, hardcore pawn, along with his father, Les, and his sister, Ashley. And Hardcore Pawn has 3,000,000 viewers a week. It's on the channel TruTV. It's one of the most I think they're in their 8th season. It's one of the most popular cable shows ever. I mean, I think there's only 1 or 2 shows that have been have run for more seasons, in the history of cable. And, I'm excited to talk to them because I wanna learn about not only the pawnshop business, which is a huge sector of the economy. Like, there's a few public pawnshop companies, and I always think these are great investments because you'll see from me talking to Seth, it's really hard to lose money in this business. And, also, the one thing that you learn in the pawnshop business is how to negotiate. And Seth gives us tips on negotiating. So I use these tips to educate my kids. So I hope you listen to this show and and and learn and, enjoy. Seth, thanks joining me on the show. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. And, Seth, Hardcore Pawn, what are you up to now? Like, 3,000,000 viewers an episode? Yeah. It seems like it's gaining popularity the longer we're going on. It's been quite a ride 5 years in. Who would ever imagine that, we'd be on for so long. But, for some crazy reason, people take interest in my family and our shop. Yeah. Well, I I have to say, I've binge watched your show, and it's fascinating. There's so much stuff that happens in a pawn store. But what I've learned the most is about negotiation. And particularly, Seth, your style of negotiation, it's like I can now teach my kids how to negotiate because of you. So it's a family learning, I guess. Yeah. You know, it's we deal with a lot of people every day. All walks of life come through the shop. And ultimately, we're there to provide a service and, you know, survive as a business. And in today's day and age, it's not often easy to do either of those. So, we found a niche, and, it's proven to be beneficial for everyone. Well, let's describe what that niche is. So the whole area of pawnshop, I I don't view it as a store. It's almost kind of like, it's almost kinda like banking for people who don't have bank accounts. So, like, maybe describe a little bit, what is a pawnshop to you? Yeah. So you nailed it right on the hand. It's, a bank for people that don't have bank accounts. So for you, for a lot of your listeners, if you need $20, all you need to do is go to the ATM, put in your PIN, and you'll retrieve you'll retrieve $20 or so. My customers often don't have that luxury. So they use their assets as collateral that I loan against. And each state is different as far as the amount of time you had to come back to pick up your merchandise. In Michigan, it's 90 days, for the customer to come back at a small interest rate, and, you know, people take advantage of that and get their merchandise back often. Well, okay. Let let let me understand each step of that. So when you so so it's people I think people view a pawn shop as, like, oh, I need $20. So here's my diamond ring, and you're gonna get you're I'm gonna sell it for $20. But it's not a sale at all. It's it's you loan the money. Right. Exactly. So we loan against your property. So if someone was to come in and say they have a TV and they need a $100. Right? I give them a $100. They have 3 months to come get it back. And if they don't come back in 3 months while the merchandise becomes mine, and then I have the right to resell it. So most people think that people leave their stuff with us. So out of 10 people that we give loans to, how many do you think come back to get their stuff? I would say one out of 10. We actually look between 80 80 to 90% of all merchandise that is loaned upon gets, reclaimed. Really? And what what's usually the percent loan? Like, what if you were to annualize the the interest, what would be the the the annualized interest? So it's it's 3% a month, but most of my term my term is only 3 months. So it's short term. So it's 36% a year. But you don't look we don't look at it like that. It's only 3% a month for the customer. So so just to kind of summarize to everybody, it's a great business. Like, imagine if you're a bank and you're charging essentially triple the rate of an average loan, and you're actually holding the collateral. Like, no they don't hold on to their collateral. You hold on to the collateral. But it's non recourse. So you don't come back because you don't wanna pick up your merchandise? That's not going to get your credit score. It's not gonna affect the credit score? Not at all. Not at all. A lot of these people don't even need a credit score because they're not gonna go out and, like, buy a house after they just gave you their $100 TV. You'd be you'd be surprised. You'd be surprised of the people that come into the Shopsia loans with me. We see everybody that doesn't have $5 to their names, to athletes, to people that, you know, just need to bridge a business loan. So, I mean, people people are resourceful. So in the summertime, a lot of people will get a loan on their fur coats because they don't wanna pay for storage. So if they took a $10 loan out with me, even though their coat could be worth $5,000, all they're paying is a dollar 50 a month in storage and interest. That's amazing. So so so in some sense, they're willing to use you essentially as a storage facility and they get a little money for it upfront. I never thought of it that way. Yeah. People are resourceful. So, I mean, people often think that pawn shops buy low, sell high. Well, if 80 to 90% of my customers are coming back for their stuff, if I don't loan you money, I'm not gonna get that interest back. So it kinda flips the whole notion on its head. Right. I did not I did not think it was that high. Now but but also, you have to have a really good sense of what everything is worth. So so for instance, obviously, with jewelry, I'm sure you're an expert. If someone brings into a diamond ring, you probably instantly know what you can resell that for. But you have to really know every type of collectible and what you could potentially resell it for in those few cases where people don't come back to pick up their merchandise. Yeah. Of course. So you have to be on top of the trend, see what gold market's doing, what the electronic market's doing, and you price your loan base accordingly. Like, if I bring in, like, a TV that's, like, 5 years old, how is that even worth anything at this point? Like, do are there buyers that Yeah. So 5 years old, I probably won't take it. That's our cutoff. So we might be on the cusp of taking that merchandise. However, there's always a group of have nots, and the digital divide is great. So if I had a VCR in stock right now, I probably wouldn't because someone's gonna buy it. So that's a hot commodity where people still have a bunch of VCR, tapes, and they still are looking for that VCR because they're so hard to find. So there's always a group of people that are looking for old technology. Obviously, I can't loan tremendous amount on it, but I will always be able to sell it. You know, what about something like a a fur coat though? Like, do you know how do you have a sense of, like, what a fur coat might be worth? If some let's someone brings in a fur coat that it cost them $1,000. Now they want $800 for it. What what what what's your usual loan to value on something like that? Meaning, how much of a discount do you need in order to buy that? Right. So let's take this for instance. So if something's worth about $1,000 if I loan $900 against it, I practically just bought it. Right? For a 10% hit, the customer is probably not going to come back for their merchandise. Right? Makes sense. So if I loan $200 on it, will the customer's probably gonna be upset because I they are gonna feel that it's we don't give them enough value. So our sweet spot is probably between 40 6 60% of value because it gives the customer incentive to come back and get their stuff. And if they don't come back and get their stuff, I can still mark it down and collect my interest. That's what customer would have paid. And and, do you how often do you use something like eBay to resell stuff? So after 90 days, you own the code or the TV or the VCR or the diamond ring or whatever. Do then think about instantly turning it around on eBay? Are there constantly stuff on eBay? Or you wait for customers to come in? No. So, obviously, with the technology and the great advances, I utilize every opportunity I possibly can to move merchandise. So whether it's eBay, Craigslist, Amazon, you name it, and I try and outfit the the resell market value. So so let let's take that FERC code as an example again. So they come in and they say, I've I bought this for a $1,000 and you and it seems like the typical negotiation is you say, okay, well, you never say, okay, I'll pay $900 or I'll pay $400 for it. You say, what will you sell that for me for? Then they're gonna say $900. Then you're gonna say, I can't do that. What will you really take for this? I I noticed you never you never throw out a a price until at least the 3rd or 4th when I may mention a number. And so they'll say, okay. I could only be part you know, sell this for $600. And then you or Les or Ash somebody will say, I'll pay $75 for this. And then starting from there, the negotiation occurs. You'll meet somewhere in the middle. Well, you're you're right. So ultimately, for my customer, it's up to them how much they want to move their merchandise for. So let's let's not talk about the selling of merchandise, which is often portrayed on the show because that's not really I mean, that's part of my business, but I don't buy a lot of merchandise. I give loans to a lot of merchandise. So you often hear me ask the customer, do you wanna sell it or do you wanna get a loan on it? Right? And depending on their answers, I go into 2 different negotiating modes. So you wanna get a loan on it? Okay. How much do you need? Because you're gonna have to pay me back. Right? So I'm not gonna give you the first price because you might have a water bill. You might have electric bill that you need to repay. So if you need $500 for this for a code that cost a 1,000, I'll probably give it to you. Right? But if you say 9 $100, well, unfortunately, I understand you might have a water bill or a electrical that's $900, but that's not how much I can give you. So at that point, I find out where their sense is, whether they wanna get the loan, pay it back, and how much their stuff is worth. Because you have to understand, when a customer comes in the store, they're looking for a certain amount of money to pay off something. And I'm looking at the piece of merchandise that they're bringing me in. Right? So they have sentimental attachment to it and I have retail, sales value to it, which I They they have they have one more thing, which is they brought the merchandise to you. So in some cases, they have this you know, they might have needed a truck bring the merchandise to you. Or or they they have this kind of cognitive bias that they're already in your store and they're expecting money. So that kinda is in your favor. Right. Because, I mean, we're licensed pawn shops. So obviously, here's yes. You're you're right. So it's they're they're bringing the merchandise to me. And if they don't like the price that I give them, well, there's a lot of other pawn shops that people can go to. So it's all a negotiating tactic, I mean, I guess. And then if you're not happy with the price, well, the door is open and closed. You you can you can feel free to take your stuff elsewhere. I'd rather you not because I'd rather process the loan. But, you know, nothing's holding you to to my shop. Right. So so what's your what's your so okay. So you so you say, how much do you want for this? They say 900. They say, I bought it for a 1,000. I'd like 900 for it. And then you and then you say, of course, well, what would you really, take for this? And then they say, go down to 600. Then then how are you feeling them out? Like, what what kind of tells does somebody usually have where you can say, okay, I'll I'll offer you I can really only offer you 75 or a 150 or 200? You know, it's one of those that you have to know what the item that's being brought in. You have to know the resale value of it, and you have to know what your bottom dollar is going to be, and what your top dollar is going to be in any negotiation. And the 3rd key to any negotiation is no one to walk away. So I'm I usually don't give out the first price because I don't I can't tell you how much my customers need. But at the end, I know that I still have to pay a light bill. I still need to pay my employees, and I need to be able to make a profit on the merchandise. So, there's a there's a case where if a customer is not happy with their the amount that I give them, I'm sorry I can't do the transaction for you. Right. But at at some point, you're also kind of feeling out it's not only the lowest price, you could pay because of all your expenses, you're also trying to feel out the customer, like, what will they take. Like, some customers might not go lower than 600, but maybe you'll get a sense that they'll go as low as 200, like, they really need the money. Like, what do you look for in an in just when you kind of physically read, like, you almost do a cold read on the customer. What do you look for to say Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna ask for a little bit less. So so, of course, any negotiation, you find out what the other person's wanting, right? So at $900 okay, well, you paid $1,000 for it, the $900 is that really the least you can walk away with? If the customer then drops their price to $200 I mean, to me, that's not a good sign, right? In any negotiation, if you drop your price $700, $700 right off the bat, let me tell you. It's it's like me selling a piece of merchandise for a 1,000 and then telling the person I'm gonna take 200. The customer is gonna be like, wait, what? You're trying to make another, you know, $800 on me? Like, that's not right. So I mean, you look for how much are they willing to drop, and then you you play it from there. You see their demeanor when they drop that price, and you had a good read on person. You know, you have to be able to see where your customer is going and knowing their bottom dollar without them actually saying it. But, like, I mean, obviously, you're an expert because it's almost like you've put in your 10000 hours of negotiation. So, like, how many how many negotiations did you do before you felt like, oh, I'm actually pretty good at this negotiation stuff now? A lot. I mean, we probably do a 1,000 negotiations negotiations every day. Every day. Every day. So people not me personally, but my shop does. So here's the truth of the matter. A lot of people don't like to negotiate. Like, if you talk to your friends and they go into a store and they're not willing to ask for a price break on major department stores. Well, guess what? I am. I go in. I'm like, yeah. These, jeans might be $75. What then is there a discount that I can get? Like, you can't be bashful. The worst that anybody can say is no. Yeah. That's not that's not really a good point. People are really uncomfortable about asking, particularly, like, in a major department store because they figure it's, like, the rules. Like, if that's the number that's on the jeans, then that's the rule. That's what it costs. That's not accurate. Listeners, go out there. Go to a department store. Ask for a manager. See if you can get a price see if you can get a price break. I guarantee most in most circumstances, you can get something. Because they always have coupons. There's always coupons out there. Right. And so the manager wants and so it's just like you. You don't wanna go too low because you wanna stay in the community and you want people to like you and word-of-mouth to spread. And at the same time, they don't want to a major department store doesn't wanna lose you as a customer or your friend, so they're willing to make a break. Exactly. Interesting. So so, you you know, I when I whenever I watch the show, you always see these huge lines of people, into the windows. But you never really, like, you know but then the but then the action happens, of course, during the negotiation. What's everybody online for? Are they all selling stuff or are they all kind of getting their stuff back? You No. They're getting loans. They're getting loans. But they're so they're talking to my tellers. They're talking to our our loan associates. So they're not talking to me, my sister, or my dad. You know, there's it's a turn and burn business. We deal with a lot of customers every day. So those lines are for customers that are going through the same process that you're watching us kind of go through on camera. When do you get involved? When are you when are people negotiating with you? Usually the higher end merchandise. When my loan process just can't process the loan because the customer wants too much and I'm called in to see if we can go give a little bit more of a break or go a little bit higher on merchandise. Usually, I'm not the first line of loan processing. Usually, it gets brought up the chain, and, that's when we'll step in. You know, I I remember there was one, episode, where it was a very complicated piece of jewelry. I don't know if you remember. It was this this drug dealer's son, Maserati Rick junior, was selling this really complicated, like, jaded diamond thing. And Right. I forget what the negotiation turned out to be, but when something's a really complicated crafted piece of jewelry, how do you possibly analyze what it's worth? Because, obviously, you're not gonna melt it down and sell it. How do you analyze what it's worth? Well, you do you break it down as you would if you were going to melt it down and sell it, just because custom pieces are very tricky. When someone invests, let's say, $10,000 in a custom made piece, it might be worth every cent of $10,000 However, it's custom. So on a resale value, that $10,000 piece might not be worth $10,000 because it's gonna be a hard sell for somebody else. So I do break it down as I if I were to scrap it. So I would break down the diamond size. I'd break down the gold content. I would look at every piece, individually and then come up with a collective price. Customs are a different animal. Do do you do you remember that particular piece, like, what what he was asking for and what you eventually paid? I I I kinda forget. I watched, like, a 100 of them all. I remember I remember him being in the shop, and he was dealing with, my dad on that transaction. Okay. How did you guys get the TV show going? Like, what happened? Yeah. So I'm 4th generation in the business. My great grandfather started a place on Michigan Ave right next to Old Tiger Stadium. My dad came in the business when he was 7 years old. My dad and his dad kinda split up. My dad started his own little 25 100 square foot shop and grew into this 50,000, square foot facility. And we had an event at the shop that brought out a bunch of people. And I got a call about 2 months later from a, producer saying, hey, I got a great idea for a reality show. And I'm like, what's that? He goes, us follow you around. And I said, no. Thanks. And I hung up the phone. And I walked to my dad's office, and I go, you wouldn't believe it, but some guy just came in and, called me up and wanted to do a show. And my dad's response, he's kind of a shoot from the hip, kinda guy goes, Ted, let's give it a shot. How big can it possibly get? So there you have it. You know who runs the shop. And so they started filming. It was the it was the biggest premiere ever for for truTV. Were you surprised at the success of the show? Absolutely. You know, when they first came out and said that they're gonna film one day of us filming, I I was surprised that they even wanted to do that. And then they picked up 2 pilots, and then they picked up essentially 8 seasons. And we're a 150 something episodes later, and people are still grabbing on to the show, which is so exciting for us. Yeah. I think it's one of the longest running shows on cable TV. I mean, one maybe one more season and you break records. I mean, we're close to it. I, you know, there's so many elements that the show appeals to. So if you've ever been to a pawn shop, you might find interest in her show. If you ever worked in a family business, you might find interest in the show. If you ever have a sister like mine or a dad like mine or a brother like me, you might draw interest. Or even the casual person that's watching the show and see the piece of merchandise that's being brought in and thinking that they have something similar, how much is it really worth? Listen, we're not gonna give you appraised value on the show. We're gonna give you real resale value. So people are drawn in to seeing what we're gonna do. So there's so many levels that the show appeals on. That's why I think it has such great longevity. Well, I I'll tell you for me, it reminds me of Shark Tank. You know, it's the same kind of basic principle. Someone comes in with something and then a team of experts decide what it's worth and what they'll pay or not for it. So there's similar principles, this negotiation aspect that happens. So I almost do it from an educational point of view. So I watch some of the episodes with my kids. A guy would bring in, you know, like Maserati Rick Junior would bring in his jewelry. I would hit pause, and I would ask my kids, what would you pay for this? And then they get to watch the negotiation after they've come up with a price. So it's actually educational. Well, I appreciate that. That's that's I'm glad to hear that. So so how much of your stuff that is stuck with you let's say some let's say someone, you know, borrows against their their diamond ring or fur coat, and then 90 days go by, you never hear from them again, and now you own it. How much of that stuff never sells? Usually, as my dad would say, if someone bought it once, they'll buy it again. Something might have a little bit longer shelf life. And oftentimes with electronics, things go bad in them. And so every once in a while, we need to just take a dumpster and throw things out. But usually, everything we take in, like, we're able to resell again. That's amazing. Like, what what's what surprises you? What what which item surprised you that you were able to resell again? Oh, I've had championship rings come in. I've had oh, But but that I could see reselling again. Like, someone's gonna buy a championship ring. So reselling. Like, the other day, I sold a Walkman, a tape Walkman. Remember those, like, cassette tape Walkman? Yeah. I sold 1. Because people had a huge discount. An iPod is free now. Yeah. It's, like, $10. Okay. I guess someone found that. Like, maybe they had tapes or something? Exactly. Exactly. And and what's the average time it takes that you hold something? Like, how fast do you I mean, obviously, you try to sell it the next day once you own it, But on average, how long does it take to sell something? That's not the case. So we we have a state law of 90 days, but I'm not sitting back there on day 91 pulling anything. Because I want that customer to be able to get their back and then re re pawn it. Right? Because once someone doesn't come back to their stuff, well, guess what? They're not bringing it back to me for a loan again. So you had to really wanna lose your merchandise for us to put on the showroom floor. So, things can sit there. On day 90 90, I'm not pulling today, 180. I give people ample amount of time. And then once it's the showroom floor, I usually have a customer for it. So people scour the showroom floor. I have a TV. Someone's looking for a different TV, and then I go get it. So it's really not this business where I'm sitting back there on day 91 looking for merchandise. Because you really are I mean, part of the success of a pawnshop is you really are the bank of the community. Like, these people don't don't even have checking accounts in many cases, many of your customers. Exactly. Exactly. So so do you find how many like, how what's what's like a a typical repeat customer? Like, how many times have they come in and and borrowed from you? Oh, 50 times a year? Wow. 50 times a year? So basically, do you do, do you do payday loans as well? No. No payday loans. No check cashing. Just straight pawn. And and what's, what's the kind of regulation aspects? Like, do you have a cap on your interest rates? Or how how are are are you nervous about regulators? Yeah. Of course. I mean, we're I mean, with the CFPB coming down on payday loans, it's something that we're keeping an eye on. However, in Michigan, we're regulated by the state and we're at 3% a month, which is the lowest in the country. So we're satisfied with where we're at. My customer base doesn't seem to mind. Because if you think about it, it's short term small dollar amount. So an average loan could be between 80 and a $100. So it's $3 every month. So it's not outrageous. But it's such a great business because it's really hard for you to lose money. Like, what what's an example where you've lost money? When I paid for the name brand, meaning someone came in with a designer pair of earrings, from a major retailer. And I looked at the box and I overpaid because retail jewelry tend to have a high markup. And when you break it down for what it actually is, it's not worth very much. So there's been times when I first started in the business that I got excited when someone came in with a pair of earrings from a a company that had a blue box, and I really overpaid for those tremendously. I'm surprised actually because so so my, I have a business partner whose whose family is also, like, 3rd or 4th generation pawnshop. And, don't tell my wife this. Maybe she won't be listening to this podcast, but I buy all her jewelry from my business partner's pawnshop. And they would never pay for anything in a Tiffany's box. Yeah. I know. I I get, like, onefive the price of Tiffany's. Yeah. Because that's a lesson I learned at the beginning of my career at the pawnshop was you can't pay for the name, period, ever. And, you know, it took me a couple of burns to realize that because the resale value on that stuff is not, not quite where you would expect it to be. Even if you put it on eBay in the blue box? Well, the thing with eBay is there's so many counterfeits out there that, I mean, it kinda brings the whole value down. So even though yours might be real and authentic, you know, you go go search and see how many other variations there are, then you can't prove a 100% whether or not, it's indeed accurate. That's the problem. And so so obviously in your business and in the area and everything, you're in Detroit. You're kind of, in a violent part of Detroit. Like, how often like, what's the most violent things have gotten? You know, it hasn't been too bad. I mean, for sure It hasn't been too bad. Yeah. Because you've got these huge bouncers, and I'm sure you have a room full of guns that people have hocked as well. It's not it's not bad. Here's the deal. Most of my my transactions are seamless. People come in knowing the amount that they want. I'm able to help them, and they're out the door. On the off chance that I can't come up with a price that the customer wants, obviously, that customer gets emotional because they have nowhere else to go. That's why they're at the pawn shop. I take that into account. But when there's no business being transacted, it's time for them to go. But what about, like, at night? Like, has anyone tried to rob the store? No. You know, people try to do all types of crazy things, but it's gated property, fully secured. I have cameras everywhere. Yeah. No no real big issues. That's great. So once the once the show started being successful, how did that affect your personal life? Yeah. You know, I'm out there. It's actually done quite well for the industry. I was, voted, pawnbroker of the year back in 2013, and throughout the nation. And, you know, for me personally, I'm I'm kind of excited because now it's cool to go to the pawnshop. Right? So you just mentioned to me that you bought all your white stuff at a pawnshop. Before the success of our show and shows like ours, a lot of people wouldn't tell people that they go to the pawnshop. There's kinda like this underground, I would like to save money There's a stigma to it. Notice I notice I said I hope she doesn't listen to this. Like, there is a stigma to it. Exactly. Right? But but now people are like, hey. I bought a lawnmower to pawnshop and I saved some money. Isn't that cool? You know? So, I mean, it's cool to go to the pawnshop now. How that that to me is the best part of this show experience, that I've been able to bring a positive light to pawnshop. And pawnbrokers across the country are getting new people in because they just wanna see what it's about. And what about your personal life, like, in your real personal life, like, you know, meeting meeting a significant other and so on? Like, does everybody recognize you in the street? Like, do you score as far? It's been yeah. It's been amazing. I've had a great experience, and that's what it comes down to. The show's great. I've been able to have some crazy experiences. I've been able to do some great things, go to concerts, go backstage, meet some really interesting people. You know, I I look I look at it. We all are under with the understanding that the show is not gonna last forever. But while we're doing it, let's have fun with it. So that's what we're doing. And, you know, you've expanded a little bit while while the show is going on. Do you see further expansions? Or do you ever see selling the business? Like, there are a couple of public companies that, are in the pawnshop business that that kind of buy, companies like yours. Yeah. You know, I I never thought about selling. I know a couple of my friends in the industry that have. That's not something that I'm really wanting to do at the present moment. Obviously, we have a pretty strong significant brand across the country. So expansion under the umbrella of American Dream Land is definitely in the future. I mean, you could go public and buy the smaller companies. Yeah. You know, but it's just more overhead too. So, yes, there's an opportunity out there for me to do that. And also franchising, there's a bunch of different things that I'm looking at. But when it comes down to it, we're a mom and pop shop. We like doing what we're doing and getting too big. Oftentimes, you can't serve the customers in their best, interest. So we have to really identify the best opportunities for us as a business and as a family. And so so okay. If a a thousand loans and negotiations a day occur in your store, what's the craziest negotiation you've had to do personally? As far as money goes, like, one of the highest item Or or or, like, if somebody wants to show sell you, like, I saw somebody selling, like, a moose's head or just some weird crap that someone has they're trying to sell. Well, okay. So in one of the episodes, a guy came in with a beard butt that was kind of made into a face. And it's on our website, pawn Detroit dot com. You can check it out. So he comes in. He's like, this is a Himalayan snipe. I'm like, what the heck is that? It had, like, things on it. It was really ridiculous. And I was, like, I'd never heard of this before. He goes, no. It's real. It's real. And I was, like, it's real what? And then he turns it around, and it's the the beard on this thing was actually the deer's tail. So you had to check it out. It's unbelievable. It's on the website. So it was cool. And did you buy that? Buy it. I did. I did. I had to buy it because it's so unique, and I paid, I think, like, $200 for it. So it's for sale right now. I see. So nobody's bought it yet? No. I was the only stocker to buy it so far. So What did he ask for? Listing. I'm about to check it out. I think he wanted, like, $500, and then he sold it for 200. He had some other stuff with it. That's crazy. So so okay. So so, again, what are, like, the what's the classic negotiation? Like, just walk us through how you look at a negotiation from beginning to end. Yeah. So you have to understand what your customer wants. Right? So the first thing I'm gonna ask is, do you want your loan on it, or do you want to sell it? Right? I have to understand what the person is bringing in. I need to know the resell value of it. Right? So no matter what story I'm being told, it's not emotional for me. I'm looking at the pure business aspect. And number 3, if I can't realize the price with that customer, I have to walk away. So not every deal is gonna be good for me. Not every deal is gonna be good for the customer. And if it's not if it's too unfair either side, well, guess what? Negotiation broke down. So number 1, don't be afraid to negotiate. Walk into your nearest department store as the manager for a better price, know your bottom dollar, and learn and know when to walk away. Three easy tactics. Yeah. And then you it really does seem too. You have to kinda have a sense of how low you'll get a sense from their body language how low they'll go. Well, you can hear that right off the bat. So if they're astronomical and then they drop the price a lot, as I mentioned before, you know the direction that this negotiation is gonna go. If they're going in small increments, down, okay, well, now you're negotiating. So, you have to really find out if the person's negotiating. Because if someone comes in and says they bought something for a $1,000, they want 900, and you say, what's the least you're gonna take? And they say 900 again. Well, guess what? This negotiation can be a little tough, and, ultimately, it's probably not gonna be a successful negotiation for anybody. Right. But if they say, like, 700 right after they said 900, then you know they're negotiating. Exactly. Now you know And then you and then I noticed You guys tend to throw out a price that's, like, almost ridiculously low. Like, someone will say 700, and then you might say, I can't go above a 100 on this. I don't know what you're talking about. No. I don't know. It depends on what it is too. So, if it's some gold and I know the gold market's up, I can go a little bit more than that $100. So it all depends on what the item is, how unique it is, and whether I think it has retail value. And then it's sort of classic, like, you you end up sort of meeting in the middle somewhere. Like, he goes down, you go up, and then somebody pretends to walk away a little bit, and then finally, you meet in the middle. You know what? The deal is never done until the customer drives out the parking lot. Right. So That's it. There's there's always an opportunity there. Alright. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show, Seth. This was really this was really interesting. A good lesson on on the pawnshop business. You know, here's one question I have. One one last question. It seems like a good business to get into is lending to pawn shops. Because, like, let's say, your it seems like your main barrier to growing the business, in some cases, might be how much cash you have on hand to buy or lend on merchandise. Now you can get a line from the bank, but the bank is gonna be weird about lending to a pawnshop because it's such a different type of loan for them. So it seems like being in the pawnshop lending business, like lending to pawnshops might be a a decent business opportunity. There is no question about that. That's something I'm exploring right now as well just because, you know, banks have really gone stringent on the requirements and regulators out there. So oftentimes, you're grouped into a payday advances and you're not we're not payday advances, but people often and put us under the umbrella. So we're not treated as such. We're treated as a financial institution. But you're right. That's a very lucrative part of, something, that's coming up in the near future. Like, someone could someone could basically say, I'll give you a line of a1000000. I'll take 2 points on that, and the interest rate of whatever you draw down is 8%, which is, you know, 6 points higher than t bills. That that seems like a decent way to approach that business. And everybody's making money. Yep. Yeah. Every everybody's making money because you'll make money because you're charging, like, a 40% annualized rate, and they'll make money because they they could borrow at 3% and lend at 8%, and and plus they get the 2 points upfront. And it see it seems reasonable. Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's talk after the show. Alright. Well, Seth, thanks so much. And, congratulations on the success of this great show. I really enjoyed watching it. Like I said, I really think people should take their kids to watch it because it's a good lesson on on negotiation, and it's a good lesson on a whole segment of the economy that I think people don't really realize exists. I mean, I think that sector of the economy is only gonna get bigger as banks get more and more nervous. I agree with you completely, and I appreciate it every night every Wednesday night at, 10 o'clock on True TV, Hardcore Pawn. Okay. And also hardcore pawn.com. What's your what's your web site? Yeah. Pawndetroit.com. Pawndetroit.com. You can keep up with us and the latest deals at the pawnshop all the time. Great. Alright. Thanks a lot, Seth. Seth Gold from Hardcore Pawn. Thanks again. Come to the James Altice show. Bye. Thank you. For more from James, check out the James Altice show on the Stansbury Radio Network at stansburyradio.com, and get yourself on the free insider's list today. The nation's favorite car buying site, Dundeele Motors, is home to the largest range of new and premium used cars from all of Ireland's trusted car dealerships. That's why you'll find Brady's Mercedes Benz on Dundee. Visit the Brady's Mercedes Benz showroom on Dundee to find your next car. Dundee Motors, for confident car buying and deals to feel great about from all of Ireland's trusted car dealerships. Visitdundeel.ie today.