The Secret to Overcoming Impossible Odds | Mike Massimino

Transcript

This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the James Altiger Show on the Choose Yourself Network. Today on the James Altiger Show. I joke around with a lot of people. I say, I wanted to write a book about values, but I knew if I wrote a book about values, nobody would read it. So I put the f word everywhere. Because essentially what giving a f**k is, is you are deciding what you care about. You are deciding what you value in your life. I don't think you can write well or perform well or or do anything well if it isn't really fully coming from who you are and and what you feel passionately about and what you're being honest about. Right. And and I think this tension kind of exists in all areas of life. It's very common in in the self help world to say, be true to yourself. That's nice and everything. We live in a society we're interdependent on each other in many ways. So there's this constant tension of paying attention to what you yourself want and what's also like good for the community around you. And that's hard and I think a lot of people who suffer it's because that balance has gotten out of whack too far one way or the other. Either they're constantly people pleasing or they are constantly selfish and self absorbed. This episode of the James Altucher Show is brought to you by Gusto. Payroll and benefits are hard for small businesses. You don't have time to be an expert in things like taxes and regulations. You're busy selling your product and having ideas and managing people, And old school payroll providers just aren't built for the way you work in today's world. Gusto is making payroll benefits and HR easy for small businesses. Modern technology does the heavy lifting for you, so it's easy for you to get it right. You no longer have to be a big company to get great technology, great benefits, and great service for your team. To help support the show, Gusto is offering our listeners an exclusive limited time deal. Sign up today, and you'll get 3 months for free once you run your first payroll. Just go to gusto.com/james. So, Mark Manson, welcome to the podcast. I've been waiting for this for a long time. Mark Manson, welcome to the show. Thanks, man. It's good to be here. You know, I wanna tell you something. What? I initially did not want you on this show, and you know why? Why? Because I've been reading your stuff for so long, and I feel like first off, you're a great writer. Everyone should read your stuff. For anyone who doesn't know who Mark Manson is, you gotta check out his blog, markmanson.net, which I've been reading you for years just off your blog. But you also wrote a great best selling book. I think, you know, Amazon has these lists where they keep track of how many pages people actually read, and you're number 1. You're number 1 on the list for all the books in the Amazon store right this second. And this is where the explicit language starts, so I have to warn you because his latest book has a naughty word in the title. The book is called The Subtle Art of Not Giving a f**k, A Counterintuitive Approach to Living a Good Life, and you have a really good it's like this, like, brutal directness in your writing. Like, I it's a it's very, it's not like, it's direct in a different way than I am. You you bleed a lot in your stories too, and you tell many personal stories. But you're you're first and foremost extremely direct, no bulls**t, and you're really kind of giving insights and then using stories to explain the insights. I think I do a little bit of the reverse. But, I love the directness. I love the writing style. But I feel like a lot of your ideas just completely over like, if you take the Venn diagram of, like, your ideas and my ideas, they, like, totally overlap. Yeah. But but then so so so sorry for for, I'm gonna we're gonna talk. It'll be more regular conversation in a second. Then I go to this poker game, like, a month ago, and it's, Matt Kepnes invites me to the poker game, who's who's been on the blog before. I don't know. Matt, he has a blog about traveling. Ramit Sethi is there. Derek Halpern is there. Blake Eastman is there, who runs a poker school. So so and, Klay Hebert is there. So it's all these people I know very well. Like, I know them all extremely well. And this guy is there who I don't know. And he, you know, I didn't he said something to me. I honestly didn't even hear what he said. So the whole evening, I'm just even trying to figure out this guy's first name. And then a week later, we're at a birthday party, and you're introduced to me. And I'm like, Mark Manson and who I've been reading for years. And I'm like, oh, that was you sitting right next to me at the poker table that whole eat for, like, 6 hours that evening, and you were doing pretty good at poker too. It was pretty funny, man. It's, because I met you that night. Right. I was excited because I've been reading your stuff for years too. And so it's, like sweet. I get I finally and we have a lot of mutual friends. So, like, great. I finally get to meet James, and you come in, like, shake your hand. You, like, go and sit down, and then it's like like, alright. He's just, like, a really chill guy. Like, that's fine. You know? And it was one of these weird social situations where everybody in the room has a huge, like, platform and audience and all that stuff. So, like, we didn't really wanna talk about business. We were just bulls**tting and playing poker. So I was like, okay. Whatever. And I saw you the next week, and you're like, hi. I'm James. Nice to meet you. I'm like, oh my god. Oh, that's the other thing too. Like, if I'm at, like, in a party situation, I don't really remember anybody. Yeah. Like, so people will come up to me and says, oh, we've met, like, a dozen times before. And I'm like, I honestly don't remember anyone because I'm just I get anxious in, like, a big crowd. Yeah. But then I remember, oh, no. You said to me we played poker, like, a week ago. Poker a week ago. Yeah. And then it came all rushing back. You were the guy who, for the whole evening, I was trying to figure out who what your first name was. Because I've seen your your photo on your site, and you look like your photo, but, you know, no everybody Yeah. Yeah. You know? Put 2 and 2 together. Yeah. It's hard to to to know. Yeah. But, by the way, the the the I did start reading your blog, when that post, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a f**k, went totally viral and everywhere. And then I went back and started reading everything on on your blog. And, it was a great article, which I guess they called you up and said, hey. Can you please, add 250 pages to this article, and we'll make it a book? And you did. And it was a great book. Like, this this book is, like, there were some passages that are highlighted, like, almost 5000 times. Like, people are really getting a lot of insight and advice into this book. And I would say and let's talk about this. I'll I'll talk about one of the concepts, which is really dear to me and and what you kind of I mean, it's the whole idea of not giving a f**k, but it's part of that is also being okay. You kind of challenge the word mediocre, I feel. And I think that's a really important insight in our in our, you know, a plus participation trophy society. Right. You know, which is like, oh, no. We all have, like, this purpose that's somehow, like, this secret inside of us that we have to unlock, and then we're gonna be suddenly the greatest in the world. It's like every all 7,000,000,000 people are gonna be the greatest in the world in that one special place. Right. Yeah. And I think it's a real cause of depression. I see from emails I get and who you see from emails you get, people are like, oh, I'm 27, but I feel like I've failed in life because I haven't reached figured out my passion. I don't know what I'm gonna do from with my life. But it's not just 27 year olds. It's, like, also the person sitting in their cubicle at age 55 who's divorced and unhappy and wants a new start in life, but they feel like they can't just they can't just do it. They have to, like there has to be, like, fireworks and explosion that happens in order for it to push them, you know, into something. Sure. So, anyway, now Yeah. The subtle art of not giving a f**k. Right. How'd you how'd you start thinking of that? So it's it's actually like most great ideas, it it came about with a little bit of alcohol. A lot of my a lot of my ideas for articles, they start out as just like conversations I have with people, and often with friends in a bar or something. And and whenever I'm, like, talking with somebody about something and I have like, one of us says something that kinda sticks, and it's like, wow. That's really good. I pull up my phone, and I jot down notes. That's really good advice. Yeah. So okay. So you I I can now just picture, like, you're in a bar Yeah. And someone's just, like, leaning over the bar, like, about to throw up, and he's like, you know what? I just don't give a f**k. And you just start jotting it down, or, like, what happened? Well, I I I honestly think it was, like, one of these things after, like, 3 or 4 beers. I you know, a friend and I were joking around, and I was like, you know, there's a subtle art to not giving a f**k. It's not easy. Like It's it's really true. It's subtlety. It's nuance to it. Yeah. There's there's a subtle, a subtlety to it. And, and I was like, wow. That'd be a great post. And so I jotted it down. I have this Google Doc file that's, like, just it's just this, like, vomit of dozens and dozens of random ideas and crap that goes through my brain. And, and so, yeah, I went I went to it maybe 6 months later and, you know, looked at it again and and was, like, really inspired by it. And I was like, you know, you could actually tie this into a lot because, essentially, when we talk about giving a f**k, like, I I I joke around with a lot of people. I I say, like, I wanted to write a book about values, but I knew if I wrote a book about values, nobody would read it, so I put the f word everywhere. Because, like, really, essentially, what giving a f**k is is you are deciding what you care about. You are deciding what you value in your life. It it you make you make that that point, and it's a very important point because that I guess and I I guess I didn't fully connect the dots, but that's where the subtlety is Yeah. Which is that it's not you're you're you're not saying and and you you you underline this very carefully in the book. You're not saying don't care about anything. You're saying, make sure you know what you're giving a f**k about. Yes. So, and by the way, props to your publisher for HarperCollins Right. Harper 1 for for letting you use, you know, this word in the title, and you use it all throughout the book. And, obviously, people didn't care because Yeah. It's the most widely read book right now on Amazon. But, you you do like like, I feel when I get into the day I feel we all we all get into the danger zone sometimes. Like No. What does this person think of me, or how many likes is this post gonna get, or how many comments, or how many downloads will this podcast have? Like, there are kind of irrational things that we give a f**k about because it's the metric by which we we we sort of choose a tribe we're gonna belong to, and it's the metric by which we rank ourselves in a tribe. And that's what humans have been doing for 200000 years or or 1000000 of years. So okay. So, I mean, it's the the keyword is the subtle part. And I think a lot of people, they get so caught up with the f word. Like, they don't realize that. Because when you start thinking about, okay, what do I care about? Like, what are my values and what is worthwhile? Like, what what is worthy of me giving a f**k about? It's actually a really hard question to answer well. Like, there are many things in our lives that we care a lot about, but it's maybe we shouldn't care that much. And then and and then there are other things that, you know, we don't care much about, but we probably should, but it's hard to distinguish the 2. It's hard to know, you know, like, something as simple as, like, we put a couple posts online and and they don't get shared or liked a lot. On one level, it's like, yeah, I shouldn't care about that. I shouldn't base my happiness on how many people are clicking and sharing my stuff. But then there also comes a point where it's like, alright. Well, if I'm writing stuff that doesn't resonate with people, then that's like a serious issue as my career as a writer. So so there's a lot of nuance in here that we have to be able to look at and and and kind of prioritize things and and understand, like I use the word metric, and it's a a word I use a lot in the book. Like, decide what our metric of success is, specifically because a lot of us just take whatever kind of society tells us and assume that's what success is. It's a very interesting thing because on the one hand, you you can you I don't think you can write well or perform well or or do anything well if there if it isn't really fully coming from who you are and and what you feel passionately about and what you're being honest about, which you which you allude to throughout this book and and even your earlier book, which we'll talk about in a second. Yeah. But, at the same time, though, if you're any one of these things, you really do have to there is some level you have to care about what the audience thinks, or else why are you doing what you're doing? Now sometimes for me, if I write a really good post that I feel deep down, this is good Mhmm. I I can avoid caring a little bit about how many people are engaging with it. But other times, I just really want people to engage with it. Like, you have to there is a balance. Right. Right. And and I think this tension kind of exists in all areas of life. You know, it's it's one thing it's very common in in the self help world to say, like, you know, be true to yourself and and follow your feelings and and, you know, just do what you want. And that's nice and everything, but, like, you know, if I went out on, like, went out to, like, 6th Ave and, like, started peeing on the corner, like, just because I feel like it, like Is that your true passion that I do? How I'm that is my true yeah. That's what's That's your truth? Yes. This is my truth at the moment is I wanna go pee on 6 f. But it's it's you you can't just go around doing that. Like, there's we live in a society. We live we live we're interdependent on each other in many ways. So there's this constant tension of, like, where do your needs end and and, like, like, paying attention to what you yourself want and what's also, like, good for the community around you. And that's hard. And I think a lot of people who suffer, it's because that balance has gotten out of whack too far one way or the other. Either they're constantly people pleasing or they are constantly selfish and self absorbed. And it's I think I think in general, you kind of everybody sort of starts off people pleasing Yeah. I feel because or at least I did because I just simply had no clue. I had no clue Right. What who I was or what I wanted to be. You know, you're kind of you're kind of forced into adulthood in this weird way. Like, you know, biologically, you're you're an adult at a certain age, but you're still going to high school for a few more years. And then you're going to college for a few years, and then you have to, like, you're you're told you have to get a job and rise up to the job. So we're told for almost a decade this kind of brainwashing about who we're supposed to be, so we have no clue. Yeah. We we've built institutions around it, around socializing people that way. But also just like children in general, I mean, kids developmentally speaking, when we're kids, we are just wired to do what we're told, like, because that's what gets us approval. So mom and dad told me, you know, to eat my broccoli and and do the color picture. And and we do that, and then we're they're they're happy. They smile, and they clap, and they hug us. And so it's it is a fundamental part of our psychology to seek that approval. I guess you could almost define adulthood as developing the ability to draw that boundary of where, seeking the approval of others needs to end and seeking the approval of yourself begins. Yeah. But I think that's that's again where the subtle I I you know, so I'm 49. You're 33. It's hard. Right? And I don't think it's I don't think that's a process that ever ends because we are always tribal primates, and there's always the alpha and the omega. You're either moving close and and we have all these neurochemicals in our brain that are, you know, a 1000000000 times a day telling us if we're moving closer to Alpha or closer to Omega or being kicked out of the tribe. So this is, like, what causes of depression and anxiety and and all of these things. It's hard. You even have a course on your side overcoming anxiety. Right. So it's an issue that is relate totally related to this. But let's talk about the the change from childhood to adulthood, which is, let's say, usually for peep for men and women around the age of 13 biologically. Mhmm. That was all and that's kind of the where where, like, often for many people, for me, maybe or particularly for me for a long time, that has been the root of my insecurities, how I felt about myself at that age. Sure. And for you, you had this particularly traumatic thing happen. Yeah. Can you describe what it was? Which one? Well, let's talk about the principal telling you to come to his office. Yeah. So there yeah. There's a story in the book. So I I I got her I was a very I guess I took a different tact than you did. I became a very rebellious angry adolescent, and I started dealing drugs, when I was about 13 years old. And I got caught for it, and I got arrested for it. I got kicked out of school. Dealing. Yeah. Because you Well, buying and selling. Yeah. Because you didn't you didn't mention that part in the book. Well, I wasn't, like, I wasn't a dealer. You know, it's like I didn't have, like, inventory Right. And all that stuff. But it's like because when you're that age, you're just like, oh, wow. Pot. Like and you go and buy $20 and then your friend's like, oh, I want some. And so you give him some for, like, $10. And so, you know, at that age, there aren't real dealers. Like, there's just kids who have it. And, and I was one of those kids, and I got caught. And, How did the principal know? Did you ever find that out? Because you don't mention that in the book either. He just kinda goes to your class and says, Mark, come with me. There were people talked, which, again, at that age Right. You're talking 12, 13 year olds. So, yeah, like, people talked word got around. And and and, also, like, I wasn't very, I I wasn't very like, I was pretty conspicuous about it. Like, I was a dumb 13 year old, so I was, like, openly, like, hey. Guess what I got? You know what I mean? But by the way, I hope this is not even too much of a reveal for the book because when I was reading the story, for the first two thirds of it, I totally thought you the principal was unfairly singling you out for some reason, and he was totally wrong and you were totally honest. Yep. So Well, it was it was written that way Yeah. On purpose. And I just ruined it for everybody. Yeah. You just ruined it. You just spoiled it. But, I mean, this kinda ties back into talking about writing. Like, one thing that's interesting about writing is, especially, like, kind of in in our our niche, is that there's kind of this implicit trust of of the author. Like, you know, if you're reading something that's giving you advice, you just kind of assume that the author is a trustworthy, good person. And so I kinda just kinda screwed up screwed around with that in that chapter. It was like I started the chapter by, like, yeah. I'm this kid who's been unfairly persecuted, being treated horrible by this evil principle. I'm, like, about to cry because I'm so scared, and then you find out, no. I'm just a lying little s**t, and I actually did have the drugs. And And I wanna I wanna just that's very interesting because, like, I never view my my my writing that way. I actually really like the way you did it. And I was thinking, how would I have done this? Because I agree with you. I don't really like the I like playing with, let's say, that self help genre. I really think people should not be writing, in general, self help. Like, that that whole category is sort of a BS category. Yeah. And I always say advice is autobiography. Like, if you haven't, you know, felt it, don't dealt it or whatever. Well, it what I like what I like and this is something that I think you're one of the only other people I know who who who does this, but this is a philosophy I have, and and and it's something that you do that I admire, which is like, we're not the guru on stage who's like, here are the 5 keys to make your life per you know, it's like you and I were both like, we're f**ked up too. And, like, these are all the ways that I screwed up, and it's I'm not this, like, authority figure looming over you. I'm actually, like, I'm in the s**t with you. So so And and this is just my experience. And and so it's interesting. So I think I probably would have started that, with, you know, I would just would have said flat out, you know, I was 13 years old when I was first caught with drugs. Yeah. And just to kinda, like, just put it right out there that this is not gonna be your a self help story. But I appreciate the way you did it as well. And, again, it has your your usual directness in it. But but go ahead. So the principal kinda screws up your entire life? Well, so he kicks I get kicked out of school. And and Do they really kick out kids out of school for just, like, having Yeah. At least in Texas, they do. Uh-huh. And and in the nineties. I don't know. Who knows what they do these days? But, yeah, I got I got thrown out of school. And, I mean, thankfully, like, my parents my parents were, like, present and competent and loving enough to, like, realize that I was a kid in a bad situation. And so they basically put me on house arrest and, like, homeschooled me for a while. The problem is is that they got divorced, like, 6 months later. So it's like what what I say in the book is, like, within a year, I lost my freedom, my social circle, and my family, like, all within a span of Why your social circle? Because they realized that the kids I was hanging out with were were involved in this stuff too, and so my parents were like, you are not allowed to see any of your friends anymore. Well, what do you think they could have done? I mean, they were as you as you just described, they were trying their best, and they were also going through something. Yes. What what, do you think they could have or should have done even just slightly differently? I think they they definitely made the right call in terms of, I guess, like, the logistical questions. They made the right call. They were right to cut me off from the kids I was hanging around with. They were right to keep me at home, and then they eventually they put me in a private school the next year, which they were also right to do. So I think they did a good job of that. My my big complaint and and the thing I I talk about it briefly. I have, like, maybe a paragraph or 2 about it, about my family life. The thing that my parents were really, really bad at, and I spent much of my early adulthood, like, trying to figure this s**t out. My family was very bad at just talking openly about their emotions. So the joke in my family is that the house would be on fire and, like, one of us would be like, is it hot in here? And the other one would be like, it's a little warm, but I don't know. Why do you think it's hot? No. I don't think it's hot. You know? And meanwhile, like, s**t's collapsing around us, and, so that was the problem. Like, really, really difficult, painful stuff was going on around that time. And my parents were both bat very bad at talking about it, openly. And my brother and I, as a result, you know, grew up without the tools to really talk or deal with it openly. And one tool in particular, which which I think many people can relate to, is you never it seems like the way you describe it, you never really had somebody, kind of enthusiastic about validating you, about saying, you know, Mark, it's okay. You're good. We're gonna deal with this. We're you know, we love you. We're gonna, you know, figure these things out and do these things and and and so on. Yeah. I mean, the the problem with my parents was so they're both very smart people, and they would say the right things. And I think they intended the right things. It's just that I don't think they necessarily had, like, the emotional toolkit to deal with what was going on themselves. So they would say stuff like that. They're like, you know what? We love you. It's not your fault. We're gonna make it through this. If you ever need anything, talk to me, but it's like meanwhile, they're kind of emotionally shut down themselves too. Well, I mean, they also they were going through if they got divorced just 6 months later, that means for probably the prior year or so Oh, yeah. If things were bad for a while. Yeah. Well, why did they get divorced? Essentially, just because they they couldn't talk about their problems. Like, they and and I can see it now that I'm an adult. I can kinda see you know, I I think in relationships, what you wanna look for so there's a quote that I love from an artist. He said, the trick to to a successful relationship is path pathologies that complement one another. So it's like your craziness, like, compensates for her craziness, and her craziness compensates for your craziness. And I think you can get situations like that, you know, where it's like, okay. He's, like, really shy and introverted, and she's really outgoing and confident, and so she can kinda, like, compensate for that and help him out. You get a lot of dynamics like that between 2 people, but you also get dynamics where it's people share the exact same weaknesses. And so instead of helping each other compensate for their weaknesses, they simply reinforce it. And that was the case with my parents. So both of my parents, they're very bad at confrontation. They're very bad at openly addressing problems, particularly emotional problems. And so my mom is constantly trying to avoid like, there's something something's wrong in in the family. Right? And it's my mom has her all of her, like, avoidance mechanisms, and my dad's got all of his. And instead of calling each other out on them, they're just kind of perpetuating, like, reinforcing their each other's ability to avoid it. And from what I understand, this went on for most of their marriage. So How do you think couples can recognize or address this? I think so what's interesting is I think everybody has so, look, we all like or we all we all don't like stuff that feels bad. Like, that's a very obvious statement. Like, we all none of us like confrontation or like dealing with problems. I think one of the key things is that we all have our own patterns of avoidance, and I think my mom and my dad have very different patterns. And I think that's probably a big part of, like, why they couldn't spot it in in each other. So in my dad's mind, he's like, you know, alright. Well, you know, I'm around for vacations, and I'm around to, like, talk to the kids, so I must be doing a good job. In my mom's mind, she's like, well, I'm taking care of all the house stuff and you know? But, like so in her mind, everything's going fine, but it's like they're they're not addressing each other's patterns. Which I think, by the way, that dynamic is very common with Totally. You know, husbands and wives and Yeah. Just how traditionally kids were raised, but now the traditions are changing, so it becomes a lot more problematic in couples. Yeah. I I was I was talking to, I was I've got a friend who's a therapist, and and I was talking to him recently about just this kind of stuff. And and I was saying, you know, it's funny. I think a huge component of simply, like, having a good relationship is understanding the other person's psychology. Like, understanding, like, not just, you know, what they like, what makes them happy, what kind of gifts do they prefer, or what do they they like to do for fun, but also understand, like, what are their insecurities? How do they avoid problems? What do they use to numb themselves? Because we all use something to numb ourselves. And so if you can, like, spot those things in your partner, then you can kind of feel like a lookout guard for each other. Like, you can kinda call it out. You're like, hey. You've been avoiding the like, I think you're avoiding this thing. You've been acting this way the last week or 2. Like, is something wrong? And that can kind of trigger your partner to sit down and be like, Yeah. Actually, yeah, I think something's wrong. You know? Because Or it could trigger defensiveness. Sure. Which that's the other that's another of many ingredients of a successful relationship is but, yeah, you you need to be open to stuff like that. You can't, you know, you there has to be a certain, like, willingness for vulnerability to to hear that kind of stuff. So so so at this pivotal age for you, you basically your whole life turned upside down. You're probably scared to death for a really long time. Yeah. And it kind of, you probably gave too too much attention to what people thought about you when you kind of then burst through this childhood into, you know, young adulthood and, you know, your twenties and so on. Yeah. You know, being a teen I think being a teenager is hard for everybody. Like, everybody's a little bit you know, gives too many f**ks about social approval around that time, and and we're all very insecure around that time. It was particularly hard for me because I went through all this stuff that was very painful, and I didn't know how to deal with it. And then on top of that, I got pushed into, like, a Christian private school, and I was, like, this atheist kid who listened to Marilyn Manson and was like, what the f**k is chapel? Like, I don't wanna be here. You know? Wait. Didn't your didn't your parents take away your Marilyn Manson, records? I think you mentioned that in the They did. They did. But, thankfully, around this time, the the glories of the Internet and Napster were emerging, so it didn't take long to get to get that back. But, yeah, so I kinda got thrust into this new environment where I just I really felt like I didn't fit in for the 1st couple years, and so that was very difficult. And so, yeah, I I I grew up I would say I I I I grew up with a very unhealthy, very unhealthy tendencies around just, like, social approval, or I guess a better way to put it is, like, I became I I ended up being far more insecure, I think, socially than most people. Because, again, we're all insecure at those ages, but I think I I kinda came out of came out of it with, like, some neuroticism around it, which kinda led into some of the things I did in my twenties. And what what kind of was a sort of breaking point where you decided, okay. Enough's enough. I can't do this anymore. In what regard? In the in the sense that I've gotta stop this neurosis. Like, I I have gotta stop this constant need for giving literally giving a f**k to too many things that aren't important, that aren't my values. Well, that's kinda jumping ahead a little bit, because I really don't think I've I I kinda sorted that out until my, like, my mid or late twenties. I I I will say this. When I when I got to college, things got much better, but I became I I basically became like the party guy, and I and I developed I developed a fixation on my relationships with women, was just, like, very obsessive, not about the women themselves, but just, like, con like, I was just, like, bottomless pit of approval seeking. I wanted to hook up with as many as possible. I wanted to sleep with as many as possible. I wanted to date as many as possible to the point where it's like it legitimately interfered with other areas of my life. Like, it was it was an issue. Similarly, when I started my my online business a few years later, I did the whole Tim Ferriss thing and lived nomadically, which was fantastic. I loved it. And your first online business, was it I was it related that you were doing dating, online dating coaching or courses? Yeah. So I started a few things, but that's the one that stuck. Originally, it was kinda just basic, like, affiliate stuff and blogging, but then I started doing consulting myself. I feel like, so just to describe it, so you you were you created some content, built a list, and then were an affiliate for other people selling courses? Yeah. So so, yeah, like, 2 so I graduated school in o seven, which was a great time to graduate school because there were no jobs. So I was kind of in this weird period where I was bumming around on a friend's couch, sending out resumes, like, every day. Nobody's responding. The economy's in the toilet. And meanwhile, it's like, among all my friends and and all the people I hang out with, like, I'm the guy that they go to if they've got girl problems or if they wanna meet a girl or if they, like, they wanna get a date. And so I I I and then around that time, I read Tim Ferris's book, 4 Hour Workweek, and and I was like, wow. That sounds easy. I'll create a website. And, so I I started building websites, and and I I had kinda, like, learned how to make web pages and stuff when I was a teenager. So a lot of it, it just it kinda felt natural. And, originally, it was just a way to make extra money. You know? It was like, oh, cool. I can, like, sell this guy's ebook and make $20, like, every few days. And at that time, it But how'd you get the audience initially? It was just local people. So it was just my buddies in Boston, and then they would send it to some other friends. And around that time, you had the whole pick up the artist thing going on. So, like, they had forums for guys in different cities, and, so sometimes my stuff would get posted there. But it was still it was very small. It was, like, you know, a few dozen people a day would come to the to the site or whatever. I I didn't really see it as, like, a serious opportunity until, like, a year or 2 later. And that's when I started, like, charging for coaching and and doing, like, phone consultations and things like that. About dating and, relationships and things like that? Yeah. Initially, yeah, it was And you were kinda like, sort of different from the usual pickup artist scene, which is a little bit I don't wanna say scammy, but, Grimy. Yeah. You your your first book is called, models attract, you know, women through honesty. Right. Yeah. So I was like like, I had read The Game in a couple of those books. Like, I read Tucker Max's books. And Neil and Tucker, good good friends of the podcast. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, I enjoyed their work, but, like, it took me a while to discover that there were people who read that stuff, and they kinda, like, latched onto it, like, kind of a like a religion almost. It was never like that with me. Like, I kinda read it more as entertainment Which I think is how it was really intended. It was intended. Right? Tucker, first and foremost, is a great writer, and I think people really get it's just like Hunter s Thompson. People get really confused reading Right. Their stuff. And, like or Charles Bukowski. Again, they they get really confused and can conflate the personality of the, realist character in the book with the writer. Right. And they're different. Like, Hondros, Thompson, Bukowski, Tucker Max, Neil Strauss, these are great writers first and foremost. Right. And it's they're descriptive. They're not necessarily prescriptive. You know? I I feel like Neil probably wrote the game initially as, like, almost, you know, like a warning. You know? Like, hey. And he's a journalist. Yeah. Like, that was his job. It's like, look look how deep this hole goes. Like, this can be pretty pretty f**ked up. So it wasn't until I kinda I I had been doing this for a while and I decided to kinda start taking it seriously that I realized that there was this whole world of guys who were, like, crazy about this stuff. And so that's kinda where the the coaching started. And I quickly realized so back then, particularly, a lot of the the pickup artist stuff, it was all like, remember this like, memorize this line. And and when you get a girl's phone number, you text her this and make her text you. It was, like, all these, like, games, you know, like these, like, little manipulation games. Did that stuff work? If it did, this is what I I I would always tell guys. I I would say, if that stuff does work, it's only gonna work on a woman who is, like, so insecure herself that, like, you you're not It's like the whole nagging thing, for instance. Yeah. Like, it's the the only girls that are are gonna tolerate that sort of behavior out of a guy are are women who are incredibly insecure and manipulative themselves. So, like, I I have this theory with with dating in general, which is that you everybody kind of self screens, like, whether you're intentional or unintentional about it. Like, you're always screening out your your dating options by the way you behave. So, for instance, if you got a guy who, is really misogynistic, thinks women are, like, lying, cheaters, and deserve to be in the kitchen cooking all the time, and he goes out and tries to get a date, all the women who respect themselves are gonna be completely disgusted by this guy. The only ones who are gonna be like, oh, this guy sounds like a are the women who are lying cheaters who, like, wanna spend all their time in the kitchen. So it's like you end up attracting what you put out. And it's similar to the law of attraction, but we don't have to get into all of that. But, like, you just sociologically from your behavior, you determine the values of the people you end up meeting. So, yeah, if you're memorizing all these lines and playing all these games with with women, you're gonna find women who love to play games and, like like, do these power struggle things with you and which then causes the pickup artist guys to be like, oh, man. Like, I need new techniques till you, like, get the next leg up on the women that I'm dating. And so they go out and spend another, like, $500. And and I I think a lot of those guys just didn't see that. And, and so I kind of took it upon myself to try to be the one who would get through to them like, hey. It doesn't have to be this way. You know, there's you can be an attractive man while also, like, maintaining your integrity and not, you know, fudging who you are, like, performing for people, which is what a lot of that industry was about. So that that kind of became my rap, you know, after I'd I'd I'd gotten deeper into it. Let's stop to take a quick break. We'll be right back. Ugh. Payroll and benefits. Don't talk to me about them. If you're a small businessman, these are hard things to manage. You don't have an HR expert yet. You're busy selling your product. You're busy hiring people. You're busy finding your first customers. Thankfully, Gusto has your back. Gusto offers the best clear and automated payroll for the modern small business. From unlimited and off cycle payrolls to direct deposit, multiple states, and pay rates, Gusto can help you with any and all of your payroll needs. You can even integrate Gusto with your accounting software, such as QuickBooks or Xero to make payroll that much easier. Not to mention, Gusto automatically files and pays your payroll taxes, compiles and sends your w twos and 10.90 nines, and submits new hire forms so you can truly set it and forget it. It's a streamlined platform that lets you take care of your team with payroll, benefits, and HR all in one place. One login, one password to remember. Better yet, with Gusto's simple, reliable technology and great customer service, you'll spend less time and paperwork and more time on what you care about. It's no wonder PCMag and Fit Small Business have called Gusto the best payroll for small businesses. To help support the show, Gusto is offering our listeners an exclusive limited time deal. Sign up today, you'll get 3 months free once you run your 1st payroll. Just go to gusto.com/james. So you were now you were traveling around to cheaper countries so you could live off the profits from your online business. Yep. You were doing this, and then, you know, you started to get more and more it it feels like you started to get more into taking your writing seriously Yeah. Which I think probably directed how your values were changing as well. Yeah. So I mean, writing, I I find or any kind of self expression, I find to be really almost leads the way rather than, you know, in terms of finding your values, rather than the other way around. Like, oh, I'm gonna here are my values, so now I'm gonna write about them. I think when you express yourself, it bring it kind of is brings out what's inside of you that you didn't realize. Yeah. But now you can realize, oh, these are the things I care more about, or these are the things that are making me feel anxious Yeah. That I didn't know about before I was expressing myself. It's therapeutic in a lot of ways, and, and I I definitely agree with that. And it I think it was kind of the maybe the engine that kinda pushed my development along because it forced me to kind of, you know, decompress and deconstruct a lot of these experiences that I was having. I and I was having, like, crazy experience. I was visiting all these countries and going out and partying all night and meeting all sorts of interesting people. And so and and that especially particularly the first couple years of travel, it really challenged a lot of my assumptions and beliefs about, you know, culture, relationships, what people consider intimacy, because all these things change depending on where you are in the world. And so it Did you ever feel like, oh, here's a nice girl I I just met. I would love to get to know her a little longer instead of the usual whatever. So, yeah, so this is another neurosis that I had. In in social psychology, basically, in, like, relationship psychology, like, the most fundamental theory is something called attachment theory. And it's basically people who people who are raised without, like, a consistent level of support and care from their caretakers, they develop 1 of 2 kinda insecure they're called insecure attachment types. 1 is avoidant, 1 is anxious. And the way it plays out when they become adults is anxious people tend to be what what we generically call clingers. You know? It's like they're they're the people that if you don't return their call, they, like, leave you 16 messages, and and everywhere you go, they're like, well, can I come too? Can I come too? And it's like, okay. You know, back off. And the reason they're like that is that they were raised in such a way that their caretakers weren't dependable. They never knew when their caretaker was coming back, and so they're like there's this constant anxiety of like, wait. Wait. Don't go. Don't go. You know? And, like, they're constantly checking to make sure you're still there. On the on the other side, you have avoidants who are people who just ice they basically they protect themselves by isolating themselves, and they, and there are many ways to do this. You can physically isolate yourself. You can emotionally isolate yourself by just keeping all of your interactions with people very superficial and fake. You can isolate yourself by keeping yourself busy, you know, always being at work or always having somewhere to go or whatever. I think I've been all of the above on these things. You can be both at the same time, but I'm, like, prototypical avoidant. And I always struggled to so, like, all my early relationships when I was younger, like, I was terrified of intimacy, like, legit, like, you know, panic attack level. Like, oh my god. Like, I put my early girlfriends. I put them through hell. If they're listening, I apologize, because it's like I was such a head case around you know, it was it was always dating was easy for me because it's it's so superficial, and you're getting to know them, and it's exciting, and everything's new and, like, it's very fun. But anytime I met a woman that, you know, let's say you get to, like, 2 or 3 months and turns out we really like each other, like, I I would just lose my mind and and start finding ways to sabotage it or, like, to make it go away. And living nomadically, doing, like, the whole 4 hour workweek lifestyle, it is incredible in some ways. Like, it's it is a fantastic way to see the world, gain new experiences. Like, I I mean, I grew a lot from those years traveling, but it took me a while to realize that I was also kind of conveniently setting myself up to always be in a context where I'm not gonna be around. And at the same time, were you also on a on a parallel track? You're trying to create an online business and bring in money for yourself so you can continue this lifestyle. Did you were you the sort to get anxious about money as well, or did you have kind of a confidence about that? Early on, I was very anxious about money, which kinda just led me I was very frugal and kind of a workaholic for the first 3 or 4 years. Fortunately, I'm not one of those people who like, I don't spend much. I'm I'm very I have a very Spartan lifestyle. So once I kinda was earning enough to, you know, pay for my expenses and pay for my travel and put a little bit in the bank each month, all those anxieties went away. So it it's never been a huge sticking point for me. It's always been, like, the intimacy stuff. So so now you've been traveling around in part as an avoidant sort of nomadic lifestyle. Yeah. And when did you start giving a f**k? So something some funny things started happening. I would and and I wrote if if you go to my blog, there's, there's an article. I think it's called, like, the the joy the the the simple pleasures are the most meaningful or something like that. It's something like and I think I wrote it, like, 2,010, 2011. You've probably had this experience where, like, there are articles on your site that maybe didn't get a ton of attention from readers, but they're hugely important for you personally. Yeah. Like, they're a big turning point for you. So that was one of them for me personally. Like, that was a huge turning point for me. And I think mostly my readership is kind of just, like, glossed over it. But, basically, what I say in that article is is by that point, I had been traveling for a couple years, and I had had these, like, ridiculous experiences that, like, I call them on paper experiences. So, you know, like, I climbed the Great Wall of China, and I, I went to Carnival, and I, like, you know, did all this, like, amazing, amazing stuff, like scuba dived on the Great Barrier Reef and did all this stuff. And I was, like, far enough into my journey that the highs of those experiences had kinda worn off. And so all all I was really left with was, like, pictures and some stories to tell, which is cool, which is great. But what I started noticing is that I would I would go home and visit, and I would, like, see my childhood friends, and I would go out and have beers with my friends. And and I was like, wow. That was actually, like, the highlight of my year. You know? It's like I just went to, like, these these 13 countries this year, but it was actually coming home and, like, going to a New Year's party with my my old friends who've known me for 12 years that was, like, kind of the highlight. I I think there's a lot of consistent themes in that, you know, a lot of things are motivated by who you're around. So when you were a kid, you were around with the wrong crowd, so your parents pulled you out of school, put you into a different school. And even the the forms of entertainment around you, they kind of shifted that. So, like, what you were consuming, literally, they would, change that. But then later was how you set up who you were gonna be around and how it was gonna be kind of this constantly shifting landscape of people. And you had to kind of get back to your roots to see, oh, what's making me happiest, which is sort of separating out the good values from the bad values. What's making you happiest was literally the the friendship, the the these roots of friendship. Well and and I think there's a little bit of an interesting transition that happens around then just in terms of age. Because if you think about it, like, people in their early twenties like, if you think about what your social life means in, say, your teenage years and early twenties, pretty much everybody you meet is new and exciting. You know, if you think about your typical 20, 21 year old, it's like you wanna go meet every you wanna go to the bar, and you wanna, like, see what's happening. You wanna go to every party. Like, you you're there's this kind of insatiable curiosity about new people because all the new experiences are so exciting. I think what happens once you start getting into your late twenties and definitely early thirties is that you're old enough to realize that well, first of all, a lot of those experiences stop being exciting. You know? So it's like the 100th party you go to is pretty cool, but the 1,000th is like it's repetitive. And so with the the benefit of of that age and and those years is you start to you start to actually be able to tell which friendships are significant and are gonna last and which ones don't. So when I started traveling, in my mind, I'm like, wow. I'm going to all these countries and making friends everywhere I go. This is so cool. But then jump ahead 3 years later, and I realized, like, I'm not actually keeping in touch with any of these people, like and I'm losing touch with all the people back in the states. So what am I really gaining here? I'm gaining a bunch of, like you know, there's, like, that that quote in fight club, where it's like like, the personally packaged friendships or, like, whatever. Like, he's, like, joking how, like, every time you travel, you get, like, you got, like, a friend for the trip, and then you go home and it's like it's like a towel in a hotel. Like, you you never use it again. So it got me really questioning that. Like and I started to regard community, like, having a community of people and, like, a steady, like, steady friendships I could rely on. I started to value that in a way that I never really valued before. I think it's important too because, let's say, in your thirties, when people start settling down with families, it's actually very hard to build new friendships. Yeah. And it's it's still just as important Yep. Because we need that community. Again, we're we're tribal animals. Yep. And that's part of the whole, you know, validation and and tribe thing, but, but it becomes more difficult. Yeah. And and in your forties, even more difficult. Like, it always gets more difficult until until your seventies, I think it gets more difficult because then you move into an old age home, and then it's easy again. Yeah. It's easy. Full circle. It it's funny, though, because as with a lot of these things in our lives, like, I was the last person to figure this out. So people around me were kinda, like, telling me this. You know? They're like, don't you miss, like, having, like, regular friends around? Don't you miss your family back home? I was like, nah. Well, whatever. Like, I'm going to Tahiti and, you know, I was it's always, like, looking forward to the next thing. And I started to notice that I I well, I started to be frank, I started, like, getting depressed. I started, like, just being bummed out frequently. And what I noticed is that whenever I would stay somewhere for a long period of time so if I stayed somewhere, like, say, like, 6 months, it would be incredible, and I wouldn't wanna leave at the end of it. And I go somewhere for 1 month, and I'd be like, why did I even come? Like, I didn't even enjoy it here. And so I kept, like, extending my stays everywhere I went. And and so finally, like, it hit after a couple years, it, like, hit me. I'm like, oh, idiot. The reason I wanna stay is because I actually, like, put down roots and, like, had a community of people that I saw frequently. And so that's when I was like, you know, it's probably time to settle down somewhere, which was great. And as soon as I moved to New York, it was like, wow. This is the why didn't I do this 2 years ago? So So and that's you know, it's probably around then you wrote, so art of not giving a f**k, the the original blog post. Yeah. And what led to you know, that and the advice all around it. Well, let me just ask you from my point of view. I find, you know, as much as I try not to, because I realize it's important to not it's important to focus on the work and and the if you're if you're producing a product that other people are gonna be consuming, whether it's a technology product or an artistic product or a creative product or, advice product, you have to care a little, right, which we talked about before. But there's this balance. And I get, like, for instance, nervous if I don't publish every I publish every single day. I have to publish every single day almost for 15 years straight. It's crazy. So it's it's crazy. And I don't I don't even feel like doing it anymore. But but I feel like, oh, people will I get this thing in the back of my head. People will completely forget about me if Yeah. I I don't publish every single day. And then you start looking at the engagement, all that. Now that's an extreme. I don't do that. I don't have that thinking every day. Right. But, when I don't have that style of thinking, it's because I'm consciously aware that, oh, I don't need to think that way. But what's how what are kind of steps in place so that I, for instance, wouldn't care as much? Sure. So, I mean, I struggle with this. It's nice because we're both in the same profession, so it's it's easy for Right. It's an easy example for me to talk about. I struggle with the same thing too. Like, there's I go through periods, weeks, or months where it's like, wow. I just I don't wanna I don't wanna make it create any articles, and and I feel the same insecurities. Like, oh, crap. My traffic the last 2 months is, like, lower than it was before. And you start getting all these irrational fears in your head. Like, what what if I've peaked? Like, what if I'm what if in 5 years, I'm, like, nobody's gonna remember who I am, and nobody's gonna read me anymore? And And just to just to sorry for interrupting, but one time and this has always been, I I always ask people this because that was always been a concern of mine. So it's like 3 or 4 years ago, I asked Ice t, the rapper Yeah. If you I said to him, if you just stayed in your house and didn't talk to anybody or do anything or appear on any TV show, how long would it take before people forgot about you? Like, I asked it just directly like that. And he even had an answer, like, within, he had it, like, ready Yeah. 6 months Wow. Which scared me because he's Ice Tea. I don't know if I agree with him. I don't agree with him. I don't agree with him either, but that, like, threw me for a loop. Yeah. I mean, if you think of your like, I I it's always weird to talk about myself or people like us as brands, but, like, if you think about, like, the James Altiger brand, you know, it's like there's gonna be a a depreciation over time if you're not, like, doing upkeep, if you're not, like, creating new stuff. And it's a legitimate question. Like, how fast does that fall off? I don't know if it ever completely falls off because you you you there's people like John Travolta who didn't do a movie for, like, 10 years, and then he shows up in Pulp Fiction. Everybody's like, oh my god. It's the Saturday Night Fever guy. This is awesome. Are you comparing us to John Travolta now? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I don't know. But Would you like to be compared to John Travolta? Certainly, Saturday Night Fever, John Travolta was was was pretty good. He was the biggest star in the world at the time. He was yeah, man. He was on top of his game. Yeah. I wouldn't mind being John Travolta in Saturday night fever. But, anyway, yeah, it's it's a constant concern. And, you know, one thing I try so when I'm in those situations and I feel myself kinda getting caught up in those those anxieties and those those thoughts, is I try to remind myself, you know, like, what is, like what's actually the principle here? Like, what am I really doing? Am I just this, like, monkey who's, like, fishing for for page views and likes? Or or, like, what's what's actually at the heart of what I'm doing? And and the heart of, like, what what both of us are doing is, like, we're creating something valuable. We're creating content that other people that is valuable to other people or people enjoy, people get something out of, and so I try to just bring myself to that. Alright. Just make something valuable. Because once you do that, everything else takes care of itself, and it doesn't really matter, you know, because the Internet is such a crazy place and it's changing so fast. I mean, there's gonna be years ahead of us where our audience shrinks by 20%. There's gonna be years where it grows by 50%. It's gonna shrink again by 20%. Like and I try not it's good to watch those things, but, like, I try to not get too attached to it. And I just try to remind myself, like, if I'm being valuable and making stuff that like, making good s**t that's valuable, people will show up. I think another way it's been put to me, I was I was talking to another musician, and I asked him a similar thing about, like, his YouTube views. And he said to me, basically, nobody remembers your bad stuff. Yeah. So if you it's like what you just said. If you put out like, imagine like, you mentioned Tim Ferriss with the with the 4 Hour Brand. So he did the 4 Hour Workweek, 4 Hour Body, 4 Hour Chef. All 3 were great books. I recommend them. I enjoyed them. But let's just say one of them wasn't so good. And then a few years later, he put out Tools of the Titans, which I think is, like, so above and beyond, like, a great book. Nobody would have remembered. People would have said, oh, yeah. Tools he's the guy who wrote Tools of the Titans. Nobody would have remembered an earlier one. Well and this is why we're fortunate as well because I think this happens more with books than it does, like, other art forms. But, like, with books, for instance, you take a book like 4 Hour Workweek. Like, that was such a game changer for, like, me and millions of other people. When you get a when you get a book like that that, like, just fundamentally changes the course of somebody's life like, I'm gonna buy Tim Ferris books for for the next 20 year, and, like, I'm not even gonna think about it. You know? Like, even if I stop listening to his podcast, like, a Tim Ferris book comes out, I'll probably just go buy it just because of that one experience I had in 2008. It's just gonna carry it's gonna carry him for that long for for people like me, and I I think that happens with a lot of authors. Like, if I think about my famous authors, it's like or my favorite authors, like, new book I don't even think about it. I don't even look at the back. What what about musicians? So, like, let's say, you know, someone had their, you know, like, ABBA had their 5 year period and likely seems like every most groups have their 5 year period. So which groups do you think have kind of and they're they're allowed to live off that music because people love hearing the same music again and again as opposed to most people don't like reading the same book over and over again. And, but but do you know of any music groups that would just say, okay. They had their 5 year period, then they stopped for 10 years, and then they had another great 5 year period? Sure. Well, it's not even necessarily a great 5 year period. You know, take, like, Metallica for instance. Like, their Metallica's eighties of wah is, like, the pinnacle of heavy rock music, and I haven't really enjoyed any of their albums in the last 15 years. I still buy every single one just because it they're Metallica. And I think I think there's a certain threshold that artists cross to get to that level. So, you know, like, U2 is probably there. Somebody like Madonna is probably there for a lot of people. The Beatles or The Rolling Stones. If The Rolling Stones put out a new album this year. Like, millions of people are gonna go buy it just because it's The Rolling Stones. And yet, I would say there's probably, like, an 8 to 10 year period for them where all of the hits that you know that that people know of were done just from, like, 1964 or 1972, something like that. Yeah. So there's this weird threshold that I think you hit. And I think when you look at books, it's it's the same thing. You know? Like, Tony Robbins puts out a book. Everybody goes goes and buys it. Like, they don't doesn't even matter what he puts out. Like, he could put out a a children's book, and millions of people go buy it. But I like the idea of not of not wanting to hit that threshold. Like, because, you know, I I it's I like the idea of feeling it's okay to to just enjoy what you're doing. We're only here for you know, there's 7,000,000,000 people, and it's a cliche to say, but we're only here for this short amount of time, and then everyone's gonna forget us in 2 generations anyway. Yeah. What are we really going for? And and, like, for me, one way I kind of have just been playing with more recently is constantly finding other metrics. Yeah. So I'm I'm always on a different I diversify learning curves. So okay. Writing, not feeling so well, I'll do a podcast. Yep. Podcasting, not feeling so well, I'll take ping pong lessons. Yeah. Ping pong lessons doing not as well, I'll go to a stand up comedy club and perform Yeah. Or something, you know, or I'll or I'll start another business and see how that goes. And Yeah. Because, yeah, I think it's I think, you know and a lot of these artists that do achieve that threshold, it's interesting because then then a certain pressure is relieved off of them. You know? It's like they know they can like, Tony Robbins know knows he can transcribe anything, and it's gonna sell, like, a 1000000 copies. So that that that, like, removes a certain pressure that I think is healthy for, like, an artistic Yeah. Pursuit. You actually you and Chuck Klosterman on Yeah. On like, couple months ago, I think. I'm a I'm a huge coming on again. Oh, really? Yeah. So I'm a huge fan of his and, been reading his stuff forever. And his new his new book, it had one chapter that I loved where he was talking about he's basically talking about this question of, like, what do we consider like, what survives? Like, what is considered great, say, like, a 100 years later? And he takes, like, the example of Moby Dick. He's like, everybody hated Moby Dick when it came out, and it wasn't until, like, 80 years later after Melville died that everybody decided it was the great American novel. And then he kinda talks about, like, groups and artists and stuff from today that how that could get all scrambled in a 100 years from now. You know, people decide that Journey is, like, the epitome of 20th century rock music. Hey. Don't stop believing in separate ways. They're both in my top probably top ten. So it's like I I found that chapter fascinating because, I have a chapter in my book called, you're wrong about everything, but so am I. And, basically, in that chapter, the whole chapter is just about, like, how bad our brains are at, like, actually knowing things, remembering things, perceiving things, understanding things. Like, we are constantly so biased and, like, there's so many gaps in our reasoning and everything that we really, really have most of the time have no clue, what we're talking about. And and I I think that's a very helpful and powerful concept because, you know, when those anxieties and fears come up, you know, it's like, oh, people are gonna stop reading me, and it's my I'm gonna be a nobody, and my career is gonna collapse. It's like, you don't know that. Like, that's just your brain talking s**t like all of our brains do. And Right. Like, we really don't know that. Like, all that conversation in the head, it's it's nonsense. It's and it's and I love I love Klosterman's chapter about that because it it just shows, like, even so even some of these, like, big names that we're talking about right now, like, people like Farris and Robbins and Metallica and, you know, the Stones or whatever, it's like 50 years from now, people would be like, who's that? Well and you mentioned, you know, I re I read so many books. I'm pretty sure that, I had read this in yours about Metallica and Megadeth. Yep. Mustang Yep. Views his career as a failure even though you know, so he was thrown out of Metallica, created Megadeth. You tell the whole story in the book. And Megadeth sells 25,000,000 albums, but Metallica sold a 180. Yeah. So he compares himself to that, and he just feels miserable all the time. Yeah. Yeah. He, like, went through this whole period in his career where he was, like, very depressed and upset about it, because he created the 2nd greatest metal band of all time. So right. So so, again, so so someone let's say someone's listening to this. I always get to the example, like, someone's listening to this in their cubicle Mhmm. And they're they're constantly wondering if they're gonna get promoted. They're afraid to, maybe take the chance of starting something on the side because what will people think? Sure. What family, their boss, their friends? What if they fail? You know, the kind of typical fear of failure. Yeah. Or or if you're listening to this and you're in an artistic endeavor or whatever, how do you start to kind of what is the subtle art? Like, what how do you do it? So, yeah, this really gets, like, deep into what the book is about because what I try to do throughout the book is kinda just deconstruct our whole idea of, like, what a good successful life is. Like, so people who are out there who are, like, worried, like, oh, I've got this business idea or, you know, I wanna maybe switch careers, and I have no idea what people are gonna think. And my mom will hate me, and, you know, what if I never make any money? And it's kind of the point that I make throughout the book is, a, you actually have no clue whatsoever. Like, anything you think is gonna happen So all the self talk. Yeah. All the self talk, it's it's it's nonsense. Like, you you really, really don't know until you actually, like, go live it. 2, you don't even know what success and failure necessarily are. Like, it could be starting a business and having it fail. I mean, you're an example of this. Starting a business, having it fail, getting into money problems might end up being, like, one of the best things that happens to you. Like, some of our most powerful and constructive life experiences are actually extremely negative. I think I think the interesting thing there is that's true, and sometimes it's hard to realize when the experience is happening. Happening. Yeah. But you almost have to be, like you almost have to, like, put the movie Star Wars on because you kinda have to, like what what I do is I I even though Sheryl Sandberg wrote the book lean in Yeah. Which I haven't read, but I like the phrase lean in. Sure. I feel like I have to lean into the problem Yes. And just say, okay. I know this is gonna work out differently than I think. Yeah. Like, I'm gonna lean into this and see what happens. I'm gonna something good will happen if I do all the right things from this point. Yeah. So we got the first thing. You don't actually know what the hell is going on. 2, your idea of success or failure is likely completely wrong or it's arbitrary. It's just this thing you made up in your head. And so that leaves us okay. So what do we give a f**k about? And what I argue in the book is that there's just really some fundamental principles that should be the driving thing, which is creating value, doing something that is doing this doing something for the just the sake of doing it, doing something Like what? Give what what would be an example? Like we were talking about earlier. Like, I you and I could sit here and obsess over our blogs and our platforms and be like, oh, well, my traffic dropped 10% last month, and so I gotta people like blogs with dick jokes. So I'm gonna put a dick joke in every blog, you know, for the next month and get my traffic back up. And it's like that's a like, that's an easy way to just kind of suck the joy and power out of, like, a creative endeavor. So for us, like, what I said earlier is, like, you know, when I when I start getting overwhelmed by all that negative self talk, I, a, remind myself I have no idea what I'm talking about, and, b, just focus on building something valuable, creating, like, creating something valuable that people are gonna that I think is gonna help people or make the world a better place. It's cliche, but it's it really is that simple. Like, there are just a few simple principles that we have to get back to, and and it's, you know, building, creating value, living with integrity, taking care of yourself, the people around you. Like, it it really is that simple, and it's a lot of this stuff about success, failure, being a good person, a bad person, a cool person, a popular person, it's all it's just noise. It's It it's very interesting because when you get right down to it, the numbers are almost artificial metrics, which which you point out, you know, all throughout the book. But, like, a podcast might get, let's just say, you know, 100 of 1,000 or a 1000000 downloads, and that might be good good or bad. But for instance, I'm trying to get better at doing stand up comedy, and then the crowd's only 50 people maximum. 60 people maybe. And so and if I get people to laugh, then I feel like I'm on, you know Yeah. The clouds. I'm I'm so happy. So, just all these ways we judge success in each endeavor Yeah. Is it's completely different, and it's it's all nonsense. If you feel good about what you're doing, and you feel like you say, if you're building friendships, if you're helping people, if you're meeting new people, if you're if you're doing something you enjoy, which takes experimentation to find. Like, you have to do things. You can't you can't sort of guess what you're going to enjoy. You have to actually do things to see what you enjoy. Yeah. And that that's all part of it. Yeah. It's one of, like, kind of the head games I'm I'm been playing with myself the last couple months. So I I've started working, like, the very early work of my next book. And What's that called? What's the title? It's gonna be called Love is Not Enough. It's gonna be about relationships. And it's it's funny because subtle art, like, in terms of external success, like numbers and sales and metrics and all this stuff, like, subtle art success has been way beyond I ever anticipated or even hoped for at this point. Like, I'm I'm consistently stunned. The book is great, and you're a really good writer. And, again, that very super direct style you have, I feel is you're I I could you can't say this about too many writers, but I could now recognize, like, a Mark Manson article and chapters. And I think that's a really good achievement. Yeah. But it's funny because, you know, that was all, like, happy and exciting, and then I started working on the next book. And now I'm, like, playing this head game with myself of, like because I basically know there's pretty much nothing I could write or not nothing, but, I mean, pretty much anything I write next, it's it's, quote, unquote, success. Again, like, all this pressure, you know, in terms of sales and how many people read it and where it's promoted and where it's reviewed, it's gonna pale in comparison. Like, 99.9% chance, whatever I write next, it's gonna be a fraction as, like, conventional conventionally successful as subtle art was. And so I've been playing this head game with myself because it's it, like, freaks me out. And, every time I I find myself sometimes when I'm working on the next one, I start comparing it to subtle art, and, like, that's just unfair and that's stupid. And and one thing I've been thinking a lot, I was like, you know, if you write a book that is say it's read by 200,000 people and they love it, and it's, like, very impactful on them, and then you write another book and it's read by, say, 20,000 people, and it's hugely impactful, and they love it. Is that necessarily less successful? I mean, numerically, it is, but, like, does that mean it's not worth writing the second one? Like, is that something to be ashamed? Like, it's it's and this is, like and part of this is is pushed on you by the publishing world because the publisher all the publisher cares about is copy sold and whether you got in the times or not and whatever. I think it's a combination of both. The publisher definitely treats you with more respect purely on Yeah. Numbers. But it's really it's really hard to say because, like, the book, Choose Yourself, sold a lot of copies for me. And let's say the next one, the choose yourself guide to wealth, didn't sell as many copies, but still a lot of people love the book. It might have been a better book. You know, I don't know the the answer to that, but I know I enjoyed writing it as much. And Right. Well and this is this is what I And you could kinda go all out sometimes if you think, oh, it's not gonna sell as well as this. You could then say, okay. I'm just gonna go crazy now. It. Yeah. Yeah. Well and this is where I have to keep bringing my brain back to where it's like like, that stuff doesn't matter. What matters is writing a valuable book. What matters is writing a book that I'm excited about and I think other people are gonna be excited about and not getting caught up in that comparison game, which our brain just, like, naturally rushes to. And, you know, also, it's it's it's having the ability to kind of switch the tribe you're comparing yourself to. Yeah. So now, like, you know, in in writing well, we keep using that as an example. But think of the people who win the National Book Award, like fiction writers who win the National Book Award. Those are usually literary books. Yep. And, like, last year's National Book Award winner, I forget who it is, but he had sold or she had sold 25 100 copies. I remember reading when the winners were announced. It's crazy. She they whoever it was sold more afterwards because she just won this award. But until then, the book had been out a year and only sold 20 only, quote, unquote, sold 25 100 copies, which is small compared to the 20,000. Right. But, look, that that was good enough to for that person reach some other goal and other metric. Yeah. You know, they it depend depending on how they define success. Yeah. And so it's well coming kind of full circle. It's like it's like what you said at the beginning of the show. Like, it is a constant struggle. Like, you constantly have to bring your brain back to, like, no. This is what matters. Like, this is how I'm gonna measure myself. Like, I'm not gonna like, you don't have to get caught up in all that stuff if you don't want to. And, you know, and the same thing with with money. Like, it's like you said, you live a a sort of Spartan life. I do as well. Some people buy more things. Yeah. But but, you know, everybody thinks of what's the number I need? Or, you know, a, there might not be a number because if you do what you enjoy and you get paid for it, then you're rich forever. Or if you, you know, get a small number and don't live in Manhattan, you know, it's a different story as well. Like, it just depends on where you live and and many things. So money is not as much as important as and you point out the the standard case with the marginal utility of making more money. But, you know, the real key thing is doing finding things that you love doing. So any moment of the day, regardless of who likes you or not, you're you could say, well, this moment, I'm doing something I enjoy doing. Like, 10 years from now, you might not be writing books for instance. Right. You might be, heavy metal, rock star, or or maybe just playing in, like, some A cover band. A Journey cover band. Yeah. Journey cover band in some hole in the wall, but you just love it. Yeah. And and 30 people show up every time Yeah. And that's all you wanna do. Yeah. It's it's it it screws with your head. It's funny. It's it's like the comedy thing. You know? It's like showing up, and there's 20 people in the audience or whatever. Like, it's it is, yeah, it's it's a funny it's a funny game that our head plays, and, you know, one of the things that I always point out in my work is that, you know, I think a lot of people, they don't even think about it. They just kinda have this assumption. It's like, oh, if I could achieve this success or make this much money or, you know, get married or whatever, like, then I'll be happy. And it's what I point out in my book is I'm like, no. Our brain is literally evolved to constantly be slightly unsatisfied. Like, you're doesn't matter. You can get super rich, super famous, go poor. Like, your brain is always gonna find a problem in everything, and it's always gonna find some comparison that is unfavorable to you. And that's just the way our brains work. And so the trick isn't to, like, achieve everything. The trick is to simply, figure out the game, like, figure out the way our brain works and trust it a little less. Right. So so so a lot of the theme is essentially, you know, trusting the brain a little less Yeah. But also having values that you sort of figuring out through trial and error, I guess Yeah. What values you do literally give a f**k about so that Yeah. Those are the things you do instead of wasting the enormous 99.9% of the time you spend seeking validation or Yeah. Instagram likes or whatever. You know? I so I think I think the book's incredibly valuable. You tell great stories all throughout. Each chapter kind of addresses another aspect of this. We've only touched upon a a few of the aspects. And, again, some, some of the quotes from beginning to end, which is sort of usually in a book, you see in the beginning, they've got, like, a lot of highlights. And as it goes on, there's, like, fewer and fewer highlights. You've got you got, like, 4,000 highlights on some passages towards the end of the book even. So people are reading every word. Yeah. And so I highly encourage people to to read it. Again, Mark Manson, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. The subtle art of not giving a f**k. We've said f**k more times in this podcast than I've ever said before. I've even had, like, the the the most explicit comedians on this podcast who say it, like, every other word, and we've said it more than they've said it. I thought I was toning it down a little bit. I was You were. You were. I was I was just calling it what it was, though. I wasn't giving a f**k. Good. So Good. Thanks so much for coming on, and I'll see you at the next poker game. Yeah. See you. Hopefully, you'll recognize this. I'll remember. Hey, Mark. Good to see you. Thanks, James. For more from James, check out the James Altucher Show on the choose yourself network atjamesaltucher.com, and get yourself on the free insiders list today. Hey, everyone. Thanks so much for listening to this episode. I really hope you enjoyed the show. Before you go, I wanted to just say thank you to everyone who has rated and reviewed this podcast on Itunes. For instance, I'm gonna give, like, a little humble it's actually it's not even a humble brag. It's like an ego brag. Tim at aggrad, a g g r a d, said, this is my favorite podcast by far. Seriously, not hyperbole. James is a genius. He researches guests extensively and always seems to deliver the perfect question at the perfect time. He has a very high standard for guests. Every episode makes me think. Highly recommend. Tim, that was a really great review. Thank you. I'm gonna try, hopefully, to keep the same standard of of questions, and and we'll see. I but I really enjoy reading these. So, Tim, it means a lot to me, and I'm grateful for your support.