Transcript
Did you know we all have a superpower? The power to make our family and friends feel loved at Christmas by sending them a handwritten card. Send magic with Christmas stamp booklets. You can buy them in app online and at your local post office. Send Christmas love from the heart today. Unpost for your world. See unpussed.comforward/christmas to find out more. T's and c's apply. This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the James Altiger Show on the choose yourself network. Today on the James Altiger Show. Fear of making mistake always guarantees your mistake. Why is that? Because, you know, it it paralyzes you. It's it's it's, game of chess is a game of choices. So you have to make decisions. How can you kind of, hypnotize yourself in daily life to, to avoid this fear? No. Look, I think fear is always with us. This this is I don't believe when some, you know, people say, oh, you know, this man, this woman, they don't have fear. We all do have our fears. The question is how we can handle it. In cases where you don't have a clear preference, you know, you go with your sort of natural instincts. I wanna do a brief intro here. This is, you know, I've done several 100 podcasts with all sorts of people. But if people ask me over the past several years, who is the number 1 or 2 person you would absolutely love to have on the podcast? Is Gary Kasparov, former world you you were, like, number 1 in the world in chess for for 20 some years Yes. And world champion for for most of that. I've been following your career since, I don't know, 1982. Read your What is that generation? Read fighting chess. I'm 22100 rated, so I always was keeping track of not not you. I'm a gnat. I'm an ant on the floor compared to you, but world chess champion for so many years. And you were, for, a while, the the coach of the current world chess champion, Magnus Carlsen. Now you wrote this your latest book, Deep Thinking, for the first time, you wrote about this famous, or I would say infamous match from 20 years ago. 2 matches. 9 to 7. 2 matches. Deep Blue versus you was the first time, a computer, and this one was owned by IBM. First time a computer beat the world chess champion in a match. And ever since the computer was invented, it was kind of considered iconic that if a computer could beat the chess Holy grail. Holy grail. Yeah. It was the holy grail. If a computer could beat the world champion in chess, then there's AI. And you were there. You were you were the world champion at the time. I was the holy grail. You were you were the holy grail. And I wanna say, I was in the audience for that match in 1997. And in 1989, I was office mates You also watched the match in 1989 when I played with the Steve I was I was office mates with Feng Shui. Oh, but you I played on Chip Test before it was renamed Deep Thought. Yeah. And I would play against openings, you know, and and Wow. On on. So so I know all about from beginning to IBM offered me a job to work on Deep Blue, and Wow. And, you know why I turned it? I turned it down because of a girl. I stayed in Pittsburgh. Big mistake. I should've worked on Deep Blue and been part of the team that that won. But this book was so interesting. Why did you write it now 20 years later? Oh, I mean, let's not mislead, you know, our listeners. You know? It's not just about Gaspar versus Deep Blue. You know? It's about, you know, history of what I believe the most important relations of the 21st century, humans and machines. And, chess, you're you're right saying that from the very beginning of computer science, chess was seen by, you know, giants, legends as, like Alan Turing and and Claude Shannon as the, you know, as the ultimate test. Yeah. If machine solves this test means beating the world champion, that's a proof of artificial intelligence. Okay. Who am I to criticize them, but they were wrong? Machine won this match, but it's it was as intelligent as your alarm clock. Well well, that's just it. $10,000,000 alarm clock, but still, you know what? But that's just it. Everything everything is sort of AI until it's done, and then they realize, oh, that's not real intelligence. We yeah. We can spend a lot of time, you know, discussing the semantics. You know? What is artificial intelligence, you know. Does it mean that we have to, you know, replicate the process in human brains, or we should look simply at the result? And if machine reaches this result, you know, is it artificial intelligence by definition? Or, you know, it's still, you know, still a big gap between the way the human's making decisions, you know, the rich conclusions, and machines, you know, okay, achieving somehow similar results. Well well, I wanna I wanna reel back just one second about your career itself. So, obviously, you weren't born world champion. It it took work. And I'm very interested in just, peak performance and what got you to this point where you were the holy grail. So so you were born obviously talented, and your talent was recognized and Early. You you very early on. But what then separated you out from, let's say, your your peers who may have been just as talented? Like, what do you like, just what what do you say with this stuff? Slow down. I mean, this you know, as talented as probably is in in it's a it's a it's a stretch. No. I get I was I was lucky. You know? I was born in a family, where, you know, chess was kind of part of culture. So my father and my mother, they they usually spend their their their winter nights, you know, looking at the newspaper, chess sections, you know, solving problems. So, few other relatives, you know, they play chess again on amateur's level, but chess was there as in many, you know, intelligent families, in the Soviet Union. Mhmm. And also I was born in the Soviet Union. So when that talent was discovered, you know, I had an opportunity sort of to learn, you know, to be taught by, you know, semi professionals then professionals. So the the the framework for for my talent to be discovered and and and, to be polished, you know, was there. So that's that's what we call luck. But, the talent was quite unique. You know? So since, you know, I, since I discovered chess, you know, I moved very quickly. You know? Just, you know, beating, you know, not only, you know, kids of my age, but, you know, older age. And by age 12, I was already the Soviet junior champion under 18. So, you know, it was very natural for for all people who helped me, starting, of course, with my mother. My father died when I was 7, but my mother spent her entire life, you know, helping helping me and and and making sure that, you know, my talent, will, will, help me to to to to to reach the to reach the the very top of the world of chess. And not only in chess, of course. So so so would you say so so then, I guess she or the environment introduced you to Mikhail Batvinic who was a former world champion in the world. It's a part it's a part of the of the, Soviet chess system. So, people believe, and it's that they're wrong in believing that chess was a part of the education of the Soviet Union. Actually, it was never part of education. That's what I I've been trying to accomplish, you know, after I became the world champion. I've been doing it now around the world. But in the Soviet Union, chess was viewed as a very important ideological tool to demonstrate, to display the intellectual superiority of communist system over decadent west. So that's why, you know, there was a very sophisticated network of searching for young talents. And when the talent is found, to make sure that this talent will not be wasted and will be given proper attention to, you know, just to go as high as possible. So at age 10, when I played for, the team of my native republic of Zurbuchen, at the first, all Soviet, used games, and I was 10, and I played at, with with boys that were 14 or 15 years old. And I did fairly well, and I was noticed and invited to the school. And then again, my progress was fast. And at every level, I received certain attention that was required. That's why, you know, I could I could make this, you know, this fast progress without wasting time, you know, for real searching, while searching for specific assistance. So so but there was not just a talent at chess. There was also a talent at I mean, you were also known as, like, one of the most prepared, more or more champions for That's more about the style. You know? It's just I had an appetite for for analyzing, you know, chess games and looking deeply in the in opening positions. And, of course, working with with my great mentor, Mikael Budvinig, the the former world chess champion who who was a scientist. You know? Some chess players, they are artists. Some of them are scientists. Some of them are just, you know, just playing for sports. So some of them are, you know, combination of all these factors, but Budvinik was predominantly a scientist. And it, it helped me to actually to, sharpen my analytical skills. And I I had appetite even now. You know? Just age 54, I'm, you know, I'm I'm I've retired for more than 10 years. I still have an interest, you know, analyzing games, looking at, you know, other games played by top players, and, you know, just always looking for, you know, some revelations. So, I just wanna ask, is it true, Bart Vinic once trained by having playing a match with someone smoking into his face? You know, it's a story. Yes. It's the but we need but we need to play at a time, you know, just in in thirties, forties, and fifties, and early sixties, you know, when, you know, the the smoking was loud, you know, and this is the audience, walk could could could get very, you know, excited. Could be a lot of noise. And, again, this is part of Betfiniks, you know, Betfiniks' preparation. He wanted to be prepared for every surprise, not at the chessboard, but also around the chessboard. And one of the problem was that, you know, the his opponent could could smoke could smoke. And, he wanted his his assistant work with him and played his trading games, another grand master, not just to smoke, but also have a very loud music. So to he wanted to have as much disturbance as possible throughout the the the training process to make sure that at the crucial moment when you have to make the the the vital decision that could decide the game or or maybe maybe the whole match, he will be, yeah, he will be well prepared, and he will not be, and he'll be undeterred. So it it it reminds me of things you write about in this book. So so your recent book, Deep Thinking, about the the match. But, really, it it it reminds me of what you, when you describe the games, you don't just describe the games. You seem to also describe the whole environment around the match. So so what is a computer? How do you play against a computer? But you didn't that's not the first time you've done that, obviously. Your first world championship match against Karpov was very much, I have to ask about this. You were down, what, 4050? And then you started this ingenious strategy of just drawing every game. And what was how did you consciously shift gears at that point? And you were you were a young guy. You were 22 years old. How did you consciously shift gears, and were you scared of what was going to happen? Like, what what was going through your mind? No. It's, it's you may call it, you know, survival instinct. You know, you start a match. You know, I was actually 21 when I started playing. I was, of course, very arrogant. You know? I believed I had to win. I I was, at that time, probably as good as Karpov, but being as good as the world champion is not enough because you have to beat the world champion. And I I lacked experience of playing the world championship matches. It's a different aura. You know? There's a lot of pressure. So that's why early in the match, you know, I played very poorly. When I just looked at the games later, you know, I was horrified by mistakes I made because, let's say, game 6, you know, I would have probably won the game, you know, finding this winning combination because it was my eyes closed. You know? But at the board, you know, when you have all this pressure, you know, and just you look at these these options, you know, the clock is ticking. You know? It's, you know, it's mistake after mistake. You know? And Karpov was either very good. You know? He was, you know, you may call him, like, you know, a little cleaner. You know? He just every mistake, he just grabbed, you know, he grabbed all his chances. I've been throwing them, you know, right left in the center. Karpel was very good in picking them up. So, you know, after game 9, it was a 4 zero, and I just realized, you know, there's 2 more 2 more bad days, you know, because the match was played until 1 6? Yes. Until 1 one player, you know, would have won 6 games. So, I mean, what could I do? You know? Just, either, you know, you could just try to to to rush. You know? Let's die, you know, as a hero, but just, you know, maybe win another game. But I thought, why why not, you know I mean, let let Carpool win. You know? Why should I rush? You know? Why should I, you know, open up? You know? When you attack, you know, obviously, you offer more opportunities for your opponent to to to for a counterpunch. And, also, I I could play the match, as long as I I I I I could by, by making draws, but also learning because it's it's it's a learning it's a learning exercise. And I thought, well, I'm 21, you know, so even if I lose now, I come back 3 years later. That that time, the cycle was 3 years. But I could have this precious experience. But also let, you know, let him win. And that's like an unusual strat in your career at that point. Absolutely. Unusual. That was, like, the first time you ever done that. That's that's that's that's about some you know, that's, you know, that actually worked, you know, build by character. So again, all the components were there, but we all need a test, you know, an ultimate test, you know. You're facing, you know, this insurmountable challenge. And, the question is how, question is how you you can meet this challenge and how can you survive, you know, in this impossible situation. And, I'm not it's it helped me many more times later on because every time I faced a new challenge, every time I thought, yeah, it's just it's impossible to overcome, I said, okay. What could be worse than 50? Because it's if if you look at the odds, you know, my odds to win the match to survive were, you know, I don't know, microscopic, you know. This is this is it's it's a goal. Against the world champion. Like, it wasn't just any place. No. 50. Because eventually, Carpool won one more game. Yeah. And it's and it's it it was just, you know, all lost. You know? So it's the I don't know the odds. You know? 1, 2, quadrillion. So but I, you know, I survived. And I, you know, I I feel during the match that, you know, with every game, you know, I was adding a little bit of confidence, you know, learning. And you could also feel because when you spend so much time with someone, you know, just across the board, you can feel your opponent's reactions. Kurt was getting nervous. You know, it's, okay, he was, you know, he he started playing in September. By beginning of October, he was 40. October ends. November, he eventually, by the end of November, he got to 50. But then December, I won one game. Then January, and and I'm still there. And he's still there, and he's getting nervous. And and the Soviet authorities, they were quite upset because we were He sort of represented them in some sense. Also we we were playing in one of the one of the most important halls in the Soviet Union, you know, the halls of column in in the center of Moscow. And, you know, they didn't expect the match to go for so long because they they were the hall was needed for other other, you know, ceremonies. By the way, some of the, you know, some of the members of, octogenetic polyduro, they began to die, and they they they closed it, you know, once for the minister of defense, you know, to be, you know, this ceremony there, you know, when, you know, just, when he died. So and and, Karpov promised that he would finish the match, you know, at next day, next next week, but it went on and on and on. And at the end of January, you know, Karpov lost his patience. He made, you know, just, you know, push too hard, and I won game 2. Then they were kicked out from Hall of Combs, moved to another hotel in the suburbs of Moscow, and then I won game 3. So which was still, you know, 5 three. You know, if you look at the odds, still probably in Karpov's favor. But considering the fact that he could win a game for 3 months, he was nervous, you know. How many draws in a row were that? Oh, we the 40 draws. That's unbelievable. Yeah. It's just, you know, we played for 6 months. And I, you know, I I was quite excited because, look, you know, I had a chance. You know? 5 3 is still long way to go, but I just won, you know, 2 more games, you know, in in it was in 1 week. And, and Karpov, you know, he looked psychologically exhausted because, you know, he just couldn't he couldn't contemplate, you know, why on earth, you know, he's still there. I'm still there, and he couldn't win the match. And then the Soviet authorities decided it's time to actually stop it, you know, and then started again in in September. It was just a lot of, you know, maneuvering back and forth. I think I was on the verge of disqualification for my, you know, for my, statements. I was outspoken criticizing them. But then, again, I was lucky. Remember I said I was lucky. I was born in the Soviet Union, you know, and I got, you know, all this attention that I needed, you know, as a talented player. But then, it was Gorbachev, Perestroika, you know, so this and, eventually, you know, this is the the oldest conspiracy just, you know, to defend Karpov out of the chessboard failed. And I remember, you know, well, after meeting one of the top, authorities, you know, in the in in the Central Committee of Commerce Party, in August 1985, I came back to our residence mosque. I said, mom, mom, great news. Now I can beat Karpov. They let me win the match. So basically, they said it's it's it's it's not for us to to interfere. You play the match, you know, who wins? That's it, you know? That's so be They actually told you that. Yeah. Yeah. That's so big. That's that's no longer, you know, the interest of the of the of the, politburo of the Communist party. We are both Soviets. Still, you know, Karpov had a lot of support even in 86 as when we played the rematch and even in 87 because, you know, they had so, you know, such a deep rooted support among KGB and and Soviet authorities. But, you know, I I I was already a world champion after I won in 85, and I could, you know, I mean, I could afford more than was that that that, would be allowed for an ordinary solvency. So so but but doing 40 draws in a row against who was then the guy who was then the world champion, that's not an easy thing to do either. Like, how do you kind of put yourself into a mindset, okay. I'm just not gonna try for it. I'm gonna go for a draw. No. But it's yeah. You play safely. You know, again, it's the it's something that inside of you. It's either you can do it or you cannot do it. But it's you have to survive, you know, and trust me. When you have to survive, you know, you can discover a lot of, you know, things that you you you you didn't know about yourself. So it's just and I What did you discover then? I discovered that, you know, I could adjust. You know, this is that's about, you know, it's about evolution. You know? It's the it's, I think people, you know, they they they often misunderstand, you know, the the concept of of evolution theory. This is not about the strongest species to survive, not the smartest species to survive, but the most adaptable to change. So you have to adapt. You know? There's no other choice. You know? Or you die. So in this case, you die as a chess player. You know? You will not win the match, and then you will be kicked, you know, back to the candidate cycle. And, of course, if you lose 6 to nothing, you know, that will be, you know Embarrassing. Bleeding bleeding, wounding, embarrassing. So you have to, you know, defend your chess owner. You have to defend your your integrity as the as a as a great chess player. And, you know, you have to adjust, period. And I did it. And I I said I I learned a lot about myself and about my ability to adjust. And I also I would point out that, you know, in 2 years later, when we played another match, the the the 4th match, because I we're talking about the first one, then we played the second. I won the 2nd match. Actually, the in the last game, game 24, because no more unlimited matches. They they already limited with 24 games. I was Karpo was trailing me 1 point 12 to 11, and he had to win the last game. And then in case of tie, you know, the world champion, you know, retained the title. And he failed. He lost again. In 87, the roles were reversed. You know? I was trailing because I made a terrible mistake in game 23. I lost it, and I was trailing one point. I had to win the game to retain the title, and and I did it. And, again, it's the it was it was a pure psychology. Karpov and Moscow tried to attack, you know, because it's one game. He played with white pieces. He had to attack. He tried very hard, but, you know, I defended and eventually, you know, counterattacked and won. Now I had a totally different strategy. I thought, oh, maybe by best chance, because it's it's after 10 weeks of playing. You know? You have one game. You have to win. You know? Otherwise, again, you you you you you you lose everything that you gain over these years. What can you do with Karpov? So he expects you to rush, to attack you. So why don't you play slowly? You know? Just and just keeping keep keep keep going. You know? Just, because he's he he wants crisis, and you don't give him this this this pleasure. You know? The crisis is being postponed, protracted. You know? And and he he was looking for some kind of, you know, simplification. And he just, you know, exchanged 1 piece and positions was getting a little bit worse. So he has been trying to force a draw. And it doesn't mean trying to force a win, but he's trying to force a draw, which, you know, all you always make concessions because you just you're you're in a rush. And eventually, you know, he, he gave me a good winning chance. I missed the chance, but in time trouble, he missed the chance. The game was adjourned, and it was a 5050 call. But, again, he failed to defend position, which probably was defendable. Mhmm. But I remember, you know, when because at that time, we had adjournments. You know? We we adjourned the game. We played the next day. I had endgame with 1 extra pawn, but as I said, you know, it was defendable. And, and I remember I was there at stage a couple of minutes earlier, and then Karpel walked in. And I looked at his face, and I knew already because we played so many games. I knew already, looking at his eyes, that he he didn't believe he could save the game. So just you know, it's it's, you know, he he was doomed. You know? It was it was written all over his face. So I I always wonder about this in in every field, like chess, tennis, golf. The difference between number 1 and, let's say, number 20 is how much of that is psychology? Because, obviously, anyone who's 20th in the world is an incredible player in their field. But but what you described there, you described the whole match in terms of psychology or not the whole thing, but a lot of it. Yeah. But we're talking about psychology of between the 2 world champions Right. Of players of the same status. Mhmm. And, you know, there were some great players in in in chess history that were so close but never made it. But, you know, I I wouldn't I wouldn't even have this this this this this, drawing line, you know, between 1 and 20. I would say it's probably it could be between 15. 15. So this it's it's it's it's it seems that it's so close. But now just look at the current, you know, the, ranking in the world of chess. It's Magnus Carlsen. And then you look at at at the generation of players, see, that's of his age or older, he's just totally dominant. The only threat comes from, you know, from younger players. So I would say it's Fabian Corana or Wesley Soh. So this is the 2 younger players. And it's and it's it's still not clear whether they can beat him. I think there's there's chance, but you could see that this this the world champion is just it's more than just, you know, it's the first among equals. You know? The somebody who is there, you know, and there were only 16 world champions. We had the, you know, the the longest, recorded history of the official title among any other sport since 18 86. And there are only 16 world champions. That tells you that it's it's the title is more than just winning one one match, you know, even one tournament. The title is is about bringing something new to the game of chess. You can look at every of these world champions, and I wrote about my great predecessors, about 12 world champions. By the way? Yeah. Yes. Twelve world champions, before me. And I wrote about my all my matches Karpov. And I haven't I haven't written anything about, you know, my, successors, you know, like Vladimir Kramnik, Vish Anand, and and Magnus Carlsen. But each of the 16 players brought something unique. It's about, you know, expanding the horizons. It's it's making game richer. And and by the way, you know, playing very much, you know, according to sort of the to the sort of cultural, scientific, social demands of the day. When you look at the playing styles of the world champions, you can always find similarities with the with the most sort of powerful and dominant trait of the, of, the modern life. Well well and and this will segue into the deep blue versus you, but I remember, when you're when you first became world champion, what you seemed the the narrative of that story was Karpov sort of he would was very slow positional style. Like you said, he would accumulate small advantages, but it seemed like he would be compared to kind of the octogenarian, you know, Soviet Union, and there was there was you kinda fighting No. No. No. But that's that's that's that's that's garbage on side. Let's let's let's let's let's separate, you know, political from, you know, political preferences and affiliation with the chess style. Magnus Carlsen is, you know, he's much closer as a chess player to Anton Karpov. So when you look at the style and that's why our cooperation with him was so successful. So for Magnus, I spent more than a year with him when he was just, you know, just about to make this sort of final jump, you know, leap forward, you know, just to, he was number 4, 5, you know, close just to become number 1. And, what helped, you know, him and what was why why this cooperation was so productive is that he could learn from a player that had totally different view, of of of the game of chess. So just it's like it looks from a different angle. He could learn from, not from Karpov, who could be, you know, similar to the way he thought, Magnus Carlsen, but from Garry Kasparov, who, you know, looked at the position and always had the a sort of different idea how you can Like, what's the type of different idea? Like like Bradley, different that, you know, is this is it's in in most of the positions in chess, you know, it's you have to make a decision based very much on your preferences. You know? It's it's it's not forced win or forced draw. You just have to make a decision, and, and it could, you know, change the nature of the position. So that's why, you know, if you look at, you know, position from, you know, top of eyes, you know, you'll say, okay. Maybe I should go for, you know, no risk, but for a tiny, you know, tiny advantage. I could improve my pieces. You know? And then, you know, 10 years late 10 moves later, in in in the late middle game or even in the end game, that could, you know, bring me some considerable advantage. Now if you look from, you know, my perspective, so okay. Maybe I should take a big risk, but maybe I should go with, you know, with with the sort of big macheta, you know, so just attacking immediately. By the way, it doesn't mean that players like Karpel will not attack or I will not look for, you know, small advantages to be accumulated. But it's just in in in in it's it's in in cases where you don't have a clear preference, you know, you go with your sort of natural instincts. Because you always try to create position, and that's via by the way, that would, you know, connects us, you know, to to the the computer match is this. It's the, the way we play, you know, it's the, we always, you know, if you have 2 2 top left, 2 world champions playing each other, the winner will be the player who succeeds in forcing his opponent to play the game, which is, you know, more more of of his kind. That's why I lost to Vladimir Kramnik in 2 year 2,000. I was as good as Kramnik, you know, in in in in the years after after my defeat, we played. He never won a single game again. You stayed number 1 in the world in rankings? Won the world in ranking. But, you know, in the match, you know, I pushed too hard, you know, just, you know, trying to actually, you know, refute some of the ideas that Krammik brought in. By the way, extremely, you know, fertile ideas that are now now dominating the opening series, for instance, modern chess. Instead of, you know, just, you know, changing changing the the the gear. So I Kramnik was more flexible. So I was well prepared on 90% of territory, but he found us 10%, you know, little island. You know? And I, you know okay. You may call stupidly, but it's probably arrogant. I wanted just to actually to demonstrate that I could actually beat him at this at this, you know, tiny piece of territory instead of trying to actually drag him into sort of the, into the wilds. So so so this does segue into the Deep Blue match because that was very much a match where Deep Blue, just in its hardware, could could outplay you at your the best version of your game, the tactical side, the fighting side of your game. Like, you you were nervous about getting into a a highly tactical affair with it when the even though that was your style. Oh, absolutely. It forced you to play a different style. It's a very it's a it's a very important very important observation. So I just for for the audience to understand that, you know, I was, you know, I was at disadvantage because my favorite style, you know, was not, you know, the right approach against the computer. So against the computer, you have to play what they call anti computer chess, which means, you know, being a defensive, you know, actually waiting for machine to attack to create weakness and then to counterattack. That's not exactly, you know, how Gary Kasparov played his his best games. But but before we move into the match again, I want to emphasize that the the book is not just about the match. This is the it's probably, you know, it's a hook for the audience. You know? Also, obviously, the publisher liked the idea that the book will be released at the day, the 20th anniversary of the day when the 2nd match was was, opened in New York in in 1997. That's May 2nd. But, you know, I wanted also in the book to, to dismantle the mythology around the man and machine about artificial intelligence because now all we hear is either some utopian views, oh, fantastic, phenomenal. It just you know, it's it's all gonna be great. But more likely now we hear these dystopian views, you know, which is coming from great minds like, you know, Stephen Hawking or great inventors and and doers as Elon Musk always. It's almost disturbing what they're saying, but go ahead. Sorry. This is and it's and it's it it, it's it connects to people's minds because of, you know, we're a generation that that grew up with Terminator. Now the next generation grew up with with The Matrix. It's all about the horrors of artificial intelligence actually, you know, stealing, you know, everything from us and stealing our world from us. And and I try to also also to, in the book to, to explain the things in in a very simple language because some great books like, you know, Superintelligence by Nick Bostrom. But they're they're very sophisticated, so it's very hard to read. So I try to come up with a story that has a personal, you know, component, big personal component, but also it's in a language where you know, which helps people to understand, look, it's not something uncommon. The entire history of human race is inventing machines that are stealing our jobs. But for millennials, okay, centuries and last decades, we saw machines, you know, getting more and more intelligent, but still, you know, taking over jobs from, you know, blue collar workers. Now now they're going after white collar workers and after people, you know, with Twitter accounts. So now we say, oh, wow. This is this it threatens the world. No. It's this is the way the the progress works. You know? Machines, you know, getting more intelligent, thanks to our, you know, our creativity, which makes us and turn more creative because we have to come up with something new. So it's a new cycle. But because now it it attacks, you know, intelligence, you know, like human brains, it seems, oh, it's it's it's it's it's a game changer. No. It is not. It's just, you know, it's it's like a spiral, you know? It's a it's a same season, but, again, it's at on a higher, you know, level of the spiral. A very simple example, and and this doesn't involve AI at all, but it does involve automation, is ATM machines. Everyone thought bank tellers would go away, and bank bank branches would go away. But in fact, because of ATM machines, it became cheaper to build a new bank branch. So now there's more bank tellers and bank workers than ever. Exactly. This is so the in the book, I talked about, you know, about the elevators. You know? They this this the there was a union. 17,000 operators, eventually. And, you know, but then, you know, people were, by the way, scared. You know? They were scared of, you know, of, of elevators, automated elevators that were available, by the way, from the beginning of the 20th century. But people still preferred, you know, someone to operate the elevator as now they're afraid of driverless cars. Yeah. Then what it took, you know, is a strike in New York City, you know, that's and then, you know, when you have to, you know, go all the way up to the Empire State Building with an elevator, you understand? Maybe, you know, you should you should you should, overcome your fear and push the button. You know? Right. So the elevate these jobs disappear. Okay. Some of them, you know, in in in concierge, they're still working, but it's it's it's it's a it's a tiny drop of what it was before. And, and I think it's again, it's this is a normal development of of technology. If if we have something really breakthrough, something very disruptive, it means it kills jobs before it creates new jobs. But now people are not happy because they want, you know, new jobs to be created, old jobs to be kept. Sorry, it's not going to be this way. So that's the that's the way capitalism works, you know. That's the way the the free market works, you know. You come up with new disruptive ideas and, you know, you make many industries redundant. So so hypothetically, how do you see the jobs are being created because they're just it's a problem. Who's going to take these new jobs? You know? And So so so let's take self driving cars as an example. So people theorize it could be up to 90% of the auto industry just completely gone once there's self driving cars out there. How do you see it play out so that eventually those jobs kinda find their homes elsewhere? The answer is I don't know, and that's a good news. I don't know. That's the that means disruptive. That means breakthrough. We all know. It's as if we knew, you know, it would not be it would not be disruptive. So that's that, you know, we have to get creative. You know? We have so many things that we drop because it's just too risky. Maybe we have to start, you know, space exploration. Maybe we have to look in our an under in underwater, you know, deep deep water exploration. There's so many things we stopped in sixties seventies because we said, oh, maybe it's too risky. Maybe we just you know, we can we can be happy with with with, you know, small, you know, incremental improvements. Because when we look at the at the technology that we're using today, it's, okay, it's very convenient. It's very handy. But iPhone 7 is not Apollo 7. It's all our devices, they're getting thinner, shinier, lighter, but this is it's not breakthrough. So we we we'll be facing, you know, the the same challenges that people 100 years ago. So when when they just saw this the the industrial revolution, you know, changing changing the face of the world. Well, you can argue, the Internet, even though it wasn't necessarily a technological huge innovation, it did it was a social innovation that combined with technology. It was. It was. This problem is people believe it was invented in 1989, though the So you're not having Internet. It no. Excuse me. In sixties. It was a part of the DARPA project. And in 1962, Leonhard Kleiner came up, with, you know, packet switching, theory. And in 1963, the scientists of of DARPA, Defense Advanced Research Project Agency that's working for US government, they came up with a full description of Internet including Skype voice over IP. You know? It is it was all described by doctor Joseph Licklider in his it was in if, in, in, his concept of intergalactic. Sick. Intergalactic, you know, just I emphasize it. Computer network. I like how they think in these science fiction terms back then. But that's but that's that's how they made things work. You know? I I you know, I had the privilege of of of of, meeting and then speaking to to to professor Kleinrock, and I asked him, how come that you were, you know, you were just not even 30? In 1962, he came up with this inner concept of machines talking to machines, you know, just packet switching. And he said, you know, I was a big, you know, fan of of Nikola Tesla. I had a dream, he said. I had a dream to make machines talking to each other. That's, you know, that's what we are missing today. You know? That's that's that's why, you know, I just I I want people to not to be afraid of this progress because there's so many things we can bring back if we start dreaming again. By the way, machines cannot dream even in the sleeping mode. Well, I don't know. I think that's a big confusion too with AI is that they conflate computer achievements with human intelligence when they're not related at all. Like, again, the way a computer was able to beat you was not by giving it human intelligence, but but but improving the hardware to such a point that it could calculate as fast as potentially you could. Look. Okay. It's the regarding the match in in 1997, and I always don't emphasize that 96, I won the match. The first match we played, I won. Then I made a huge improvement. I agree. And, and I'm very complimentary about the the the the accomplishment. I'm highly critical of the way corporation run the match because IBM was an organizer. You know? They're referee. Just and, obviously, you know, certain things they did during the match, they they had, you know, they had an effect, negative effect on on Garry Kaspar as as a human being, you know, just, you know, you because if you are, you know, losing self control, if you are nervous, you know, then you are vulnerable. And playing VIP against the machine, you know, if you're vulnerable, you're dead. So that's that's every mistake we punish. 20 years later, I spent a lot of time analyzing the games. You know? Now it's it's to be objective. You know? That's the I played the match very poorly, you know, way under my ability to play a match at that time. I was not well prepared. I was wrong in my, you know, anticipation of Deep Blue's strengths. I have to admit that they made much bigger progress than I I expected. But still, you know, I think that if we played another match, the the the rubber match, I would have won. In that, it doesn't mean that, you know, it could change, you know, sort of the the the tide of history. It's it was already riding on the wall. So this is and by the way, you know, I lost the game 1 of 1996 match. And and we may say that's, you know, that's as important as me losing the match in 1997 because machine could have won, you know, one game. It it it has won 1, and that's enough. You know? It's winning one game means eventually it will win, you know, more than one game, and it will win the match. And in the next few few years after 1997, there were there were other matches. Vladimir Kramnick played. I played other matches. You know, until 2003, 2004, we still could compete with with with, other machines. They were not as powerful as the Blue in hardware, but they were far more sophisticated than software. They had just, you know, better and much much better engines. But it's it was it was like in a competition, a race against time. And today, you know, in I'm not sure about about, your phone, definitely on the iPad, but maybe on your phone, you can have, you know, a chess engine that is as good as even stronger than than the blue. Like, I have a shredder on my phone. Of course. Yeah. That's this. You know, we I I I worked with with with my assistant, and we checked, you know, the BeeBlue games on on on on on on, our laptops, and you could see that it's that's that's it's just the machines. They are I don't know, that's that's 100 100 points of Elo, you know, stronger than than the the blue. And and, by the way, there's there's some mistakes that, you know, that I couldn't even expect. You know? The game 5, which is, you know, interesting. It's it's it's it's the my last chance to win the match was 22, and I I was pressing hard. Eventually, you know, Deep Blue found, like, a miraculous way of saving the game. But when you now look at this game with a computer, you just realize that it was full of mistakes from both sides. And d blue made a mistake in endgame. It's what it had, you know, both sides are rook, knight, and and and and and and, 4 pawns. And instead of forcing a draw, as being shown by every engine today, within a minute, d Blue spent more than a minute and made it a move that was losing. So it means they know that any computer today would have just, you know, crushed d Blue in in in in this in in in this roughly, you know, even endgame, but it's it's a drawish in in a drawish endgame. But it it doesn't it doesn't get it doesn't change, you know, the the the, as you said, it's just the, the the importance of the, the importance of the match since, you know, they won. And it's just yeah. I played poorly. I could have done better, but it was a very important, you know, step forward because it's it basically it reached a point, you know, where for Alan Turing and other, you know, giants of the past, the story was over. And we, by the way, discovered that it's not because it's Well, there's always AI. Right. And there's always new problems. Like, 10 years ago, facial recognition was a hard problem. Now it's it's done. Like, computers could do it. 10 years ago, Go, the game Go, was a hard problem. Now they beat the world's best Go player. Go is this Go is I'm not an expert in Go, so that's why I you know, you have to be, you have to be cautious in in in accepting my, yeah, and and and and of my statements. Cautious caution noted. Cautious. Yes. It's sincerely I I don't I don't have rights to speak with the same authority as as as of the game of chess. But all I know about, you know, is the game is so complicated. You know? This this and it's it's it's more difficult than chess to be to be cracked because it's not about calculation. This is this is more conceptual. But also the quality of human play in Goh is much lower than than in chess. I mean, when it's much lower than the world champion in chess, you know, it just, you know, plays again, ideally, if we look if we look at ideal moves, he's much closer to ideal ideal, game of chess than than a goal player because in goal, you can have you can make mistakes, you know, since it's it's game is so complex. And since the game was not as, you know, as, steady as the game of the of of of of the world champion. So machine, which I think it's it's not as sophisticated as as a chess engine, it still, you know, has has an upper hand because because machines are always, you know, they they they play sort of the level game. It's it's it has you may call it steady hand. So that's why, you know, if you are playing if your game is uneven, you know, it's ups and downs, you are very vulnerable. I don't I think in Go, you know, the the world champion can play, and he can he can keep losing. In chess, I think Magnus Carlsen was white pieces. I think he could make a draw if he wants to. So today so so it's But you probably can't win. No. No. Win win is win is win is almost impossible. I think it's just, I would say, 99.9% impossible. Maybe if you give him 10 chances, 10 games, and tell him that it doesn't matter what happens in any game, if he he wins the batch, if he wants one game, maybe he has a chance. If he plays, you know, with just with with all full, you know, rigor, you know, just, you know and and he's not afraid of losing. So then maybe he has a chance, but there's one thing that, you know, that that that that prevents humans of, beating machines in chess. It's a level of accuracy that is required to win against a machine. Because even in the best games that we play in chess, know, when I played with Karpov or Magnus Carlsen plays today with his opponents, you can see the the the great games, 50 moves, 45, good quality, 4 great moves. There's always one inaccuracy. I'm not talking about terrible blunder, even about a mistake. Inaccuracy Mhmm. Which is almost unnoticed for human eye because, okay, it's this the it's like, you know, gifts are returned. You know? So I make a mistake, you know, and and you return the favor. And, also, when when your position is is bad, so you very often, you're just losing your stamina. So, okay, it's bad position. So who cares? You know, how good is your opponent in actually delivering the final blow? Not with a computer. Computer doesn't care position. It's winning or losing. It just looks objective at every moment, and it looks for every chance to escape. So that's why one inaccuracy could throw your, you know, 49, good moves, your your 6 hours hard work. And it's I think that this kind of vigilance is almost impossible for for for for humans, so that's why winning the game it's highly unlikely. Making draws for the world champion in chess, doable. So so you said if if you mentioned one thing, though. You said if Magnus Carlsen is not afraid. So how at at that level, world championship level, how do you kind of almost I don't wanna say hypnotize yourself, but how do you kind of psych yourself up to the right persona when you're at that level of, playing? No. I, yeah, I wanna emphasize again that what I said about fear because, you know, fear of making mistake almost guarantees your mistake. And, Why is that? Because, you know, it it paralyzes you. It's it's it's, you know, if you have to game of chess is a game of choices. So you have to make decisions. You know? Every move is a decision. Okay? In the openings, you can follow the the famous lines. You know? In the endgame, you can just follow the sort of the the, endgame manuals. But in the middle of the game, you know, you're on your own. You have to make, you know, choices sometimes choosing between, you know, roughly even options. And it's it's always about risk, you know, especially if you want to win the game. And making decisions, you know, you have to be confident that your decision is good. And if you if you fear, that your decision is not good, if you feel that it, you know, you can lose the game, somehow, subconsciously, it paralyzes you. It just it it it, inflicts the damage to to the decision making process. So that's why if you can actually remove the fear that's why I said, playing machine, say, you play, doesn't matter. You have to win 1 game. You it doesn't matter if you lose 9. But just as long as you win 1, you won the match. That could actually change the equation because it could, you know, unleash an amazing power that is inside, but it's always being, you know, restrained by our fear. I I kinda like this. How can, I almost wanna have this just walking outside, you know, out the door and have that kind of power? How do you how can you kind of, hypnotize yourself in daily life to, to avoid this fear? No. Look. I think fear is always with us. This this is it's I don't believe when some, you know, people say, oh, this man, this woman, they don't have fear. We all do have our fears. The question is how we can handle it. I don't have a special advice. So is the I do recognize our fears, you know, especially, you know, you you you grow up, you have families, you have kids. You know? Fear is is just, you know, it's it's it's a normal element of our life. But when you play, you know, it's the it's At that competitive level. It's a competitive level. That that's why it's impossible to play chess at my age, competitive level now because, you know, you have so many other things, you know, that, you know, your concentration on the same. You have other problems. You have fears, you know, normally because you grow up. You know? You have other responsibilities in your life. Well, let let's talk about that. You you also recently wrote an excellent book, Winter is Coming, and you you it's about, Putin and Russia. You've been outspoken, as a kind of a I don't know how you describe it. An activist democrat in Russia against against Putin and his policies and and many other things about how Russia is one. You even tentatively ran for president of Russia, shortly after you retired from chess. So so, you know, is this more a part of your daily life now? No. My daily life, you know, is comprised of different components. So it's a it's it's writing on my social, about politics, but other things as well. So also writing books. It's also, you know, quite a significant chess component, because I'm, I keep building, you know, on the, spreading around the world Casper chess foundation. It's a 15th anniversary that we started the first one in the United States. And I can proudly say that now, the US junior team under 18 is the is the best in the world. Surprise. Surprise. It's just, you know, you you keep working with these people. There's plenty of talent, and you just find this talent. And if you, you know, invest your time and resources, so you you actually reach results similar to what was in the Soviet Union 40, 50 years ago. And we have other foundations in Africa, in Europe, in Asia, in in in Mexico. Now we just opened one in Paris at Francophone. And, you know, that takes time. You know? So I'm I'm I'm trying to actually, you know, build my legacy in the world of chess, you know, in in bringing chess to education, but also creating new rating system and a network of competitions, bringing sponsors. So I'm not actively engaged as a chess player, but I think, you know, I have certain responsibilities of making it work. What do you think, how does chess and education in general benefit kids? Because it seems like there's many benefits. What are what do you see as I think it's one of the one of the best tools to, sort of enhance the, the, modern educational system because, you know, we live at a time when it's much less relevant what you teach kids rather than how you do it. Because, you know, if we if we agree that education is about, you know, preparing our kids for the future life, you know, this is and at age, you know, 8, 9, 10, and and and and as a teenager, they have to learn something that will be useful in their lives. Now how can we be sure that what they're learning today will be relevant? Because most of the professions and new professions that they will be seeking 50 years from now don't exist. And, by the way, we even don't know what would be, you know, what would be the most what would be at at the demand, you know, 15 years from now since many of the of the best paid jobs today didn't exist 50 years ago. It's so true. Just the other day, I saw a job, a help wanted ad for a self driving car engineer. Like, 5 years ago, that would have been a science fiction job. 3 d, but what about these 3 d printers? You know? Yeah. This is the and the these these social media managers. Again, this most of these sort of exist in this, exciting jobs today, they, you know, they are products of 21st century. So we should just, you know, realize that it's very important to actually make kids, you know, adjustable to these new challenges. So it it's it's all about algorithms, about patterns, recognizing patterns, seeing the big picture. And chess is perfect. You know? It's all about your learning how the move that you make on the queen side could affect, you know, something that happens on the on on the king side. And, also, it just you know, it's it's it's it's the best training for cognitive skills. It's, you know, it's it's it's a very general thing that, you know, helps them to absorb this information and and, you know, build these patterns and bridges, connect things. It's about connectivity. So, and one more advantage. It's it's inexpensive. You don't have to build a swimming pool, a soccer field, you know, a a tennis court. It's, you know, it's a part of the of of the classroom, and it it could be connected to computers. So it's it's it's it's an it's an ideal tool, and we have been very successful promoting it, you know, in in in the most advanced, schools in this country or in Europe and in the most sort of desolate areas in Africa. So the it seems also there's kind of the the meta aspects of learning something like chess. Like, there's a discipline. Like, how when you were young, how many hours a day did you study specifically chess? No. But discipline, of course, you know, again, it's it's it's a hard work. But we don't it's it's you know, this is we're really probably moving to the semi professional side of that. But if you talk about the social effect, you know, I can tell you that in in in places, you know, as I mentioned in Africa, you know, you could see the drop of the absentee rate because kids are excited. You know? They go to school. There's some exactly. They play. So it's it's it has a social effect. Also, you know, in many places, it's again, in this country or in in in other, you know, parts of developed, developed world, it's hard to imagine that before you actually start teaching kids, whether it's in Africa or or or or in in many parts of Asia or Latin America, especially in Africa, where we had plenty of experience because that's one of the most, you know, successful foundations, Gasparocha's foundations. And I personally traveled across the continent. I visited 22 African countries. So and I know we just needed this firsthand experience. You have to convince these kids that education has a value. Because here we know it's it's it's the kid goes to school because his father, his mother, they went to school. Their, you know, mothers and fathers went to school. So this is you have already generations that, you know, that know that school is is is a part of the of of the of the routine. Now you are talking to people that, you know, that's that's that that never had education as a part of the of their life. You know? So it's the most of the parents of these kids, you know, they they never attended schools. And, you know, they god knows if they can, you know, don't know how to write. So you just have to convince these kids that education has a value for them. So that's why anything that makes them excited is very important. You have to drag them in. So you have to explain very simple things, you know, like up and down, right and left, you know, concept of center. So many things that we can do with chess. You know, as the as a it's a good, you know, it's it's a colorful way of, you know, of entering the educational system. And then, again, god knows what happens, but it's very important that they they have an appetite to actually become educated. So so, you know, there's there's also the aspect of having a coach or a teacher. So, again, in education, there's there's a teacher. And you mentioned the effect you had on Magnus Carlsen. You mentioned Bob Finnick's effect on you. What's the role of like, if you never had a coach like Bob Finnick, or if Carlsen never had a coach like you, is there a a cap? Like, does everybody to reach their potential, do people need a mentor or a coach? We're talking about professional chess now. We're talking about professional but but but in any area, really. Yeah. But in any in any area, to reach your potential, you know, you need your mentor. So that's, it goes without saying even at the age at the digital age. You know? Though, of course, we have to admit that today, you know, a young player can learn, you know, more about, more than Bobby Fischer ever knew about chess, you know, in in in a year or 2 by just, you know, working with computer and, and with this very average assistant. But in order to reach your potential, especially if we're talking about, you know, someone like Magnus Carlsen, who is, you know, destined to go to the very top, you need, you need help. You know? Like, stuff from generation to generation. That's what I learned from. You know? This it's the way, you know, he looked at the position, the way, you know, he analyzed it. So it helps. It's a very general advice. It sounds, you know, trivial. Oh, it's an advice, But, you know, it's there's there's always, you know, piece of wisdom. And it helped me that I I worked with, but I also, you know, was close to other great champions as Boris Spassky and Tigran Petrolsen, and I learned. And, and now I, you know, I I've been doing it for years. You know? I think it's also my duty, you know, just to, to pass this information, to pass this knowledge, this wisdom from those, you know, the giants of the past. You know? There's there's a my great predecessors to those that that that are now, you know, just trying to conquer the the highest peaks of, the chess world. So so, you know, just to, to close this off, I wanna mention on the political side. You know, this morning, obviously, even though this podcast is gonna come out, you know, a few weeks later, this morning, there was an explosion in or maybe 2 explosions in Saint Petersburg. You came in here. You were getting texts about it. What's just your you know, given your your stance on on Putin, how does this fit into your your your stance on on what's going on in Russia right now? Look. All we're Trump and all that. We're seeing in Russia now is just, you know, Putin is desperate to stay in power. He knows that, you know, he can't leave Kremlin and retire. So there's there's too much blood on his hands. Too much money has been stolen. So he's the dictator for life. I've been warning for years, more for more than a decade, that eventually Putin will be everybody's problem because when dictator runs out of enemies inside his own country, he goes elsewhere. And that's what Putin did. You know? Now to stay in power in Russia, he needs to keep, you know, Russian population in fear of of problems, that could, you know, jeopardize their lives, for them not to realize that he is, you know, the the the main problem that is is is preventing, them of of getting decent lives. And, Putin made Putin has made confrontation with the with the free world, especially with United States, as a core element of his domestic propaganda. And, for those who believe that, you know, if you make enough concessions to dictator, you know, he'll leave you alone, no. He he will go everywhere. He will keep creating new hot spots on on on the map, new new problems. You know? After Ukraine, he went to Syria. Now he most likely to Libya. He has been interfering in elections across Europe and, of course, in the in in this country because confrontation is what helps him, you know, just to create chaos. And chaos is very important for dictator because he hates united opposition. He hates, you know, strong organizations like NATO, European Union. He wants to divide, which is, again, it's just it's it's as old as this world. You know? Divide and conquer. And he's very good. He's a KGB guy. He's not a military dictator. He's a KGB guy, you know, creating, you know, chaos, creating instability, creating suspicion, you know, blackmailing, bribing. He has enormous amount of money at his disposal, 100 of 1,000,000,000 of dollars that he could, you know, channel one way or another. And he's not shy of buying favors and for politicians, for business people. You know, we heard already comments that if you try to, you know, undo, you know, Russian, malicious influence in the financial system in the west, it could, you know, it it could kill all the markets because there's so much money that is just, you know, in in different places that that, you know, help Putin to, promote his clandestine agenda. And, of course, we know that KGB, you know, from fifties sixties, helped different terrorist organizations. Using terror was very much a sort of KGB signature to to, promote, propone their the Soviet agenda at that time. And, Putin still has an answer to the very, you know, serious accusations of, apartment bombing in Russia in 1999 when the, you know, he started second Chechen war, and it it paved his his his his his way to power. So it is it created Putin Putin the fighter of terror, against terror. Putin, Putin, the, the savior of Russia from from the Islamic radicals. And, all the terrorist attacks we had, you know, at in in in from 99 to 2004, what was left at that time of Russian independent media reported that you you could see KGB traces there. So you could you could see the connection. So that's this people who were involved. They somehow, you know, worked worked either with KGB or or or had these connections. And as for the explosions in Belarus today, as recording it, look, it's a moment where Putin needed some kind of destruction. Again, I believe in presumption of innocence, though, of course, in in case of Putin, you know, as many dictators, you know, I think it's it works the other way. So it's it's the, the benefit of the doubt, you know, goes goes against him. But Putin first, first time in many, many years faced massive demonstrations in Russia that involved, the new generation. And I think that was a shockwave, you know, with tens of thousands of Russians marching in the streets. And some people say, you know, what is a tens of tens of thousands? It's a lot because it's not something that, you know, you could do, you know, without any harm for you. So here you can have, you know, a 1000000 people marching, and police protects you. In Russia, you go on the streets, police is against you. So that's the Oh, you've even been in the streets I mean, arrested, beaten, you know, spent 10 days in jail. So but at that time, you know, that was, like, you know, this is it was an easygoing time, quote unquote, because I could spend 5 or 10 days in jail. Today, for the same, quote, unquote, crime, just for just what they call disturbing public order, you can spend 5 or 10 years in jail. So this is in 10 years, you could see, you know, what has happened in Putin's Russia. So that's why I, think that it's it's the we can we can suspect that the, the this attack in Saint Petersburg was another product of of of KGB because, you know, it helps Putin to promote his agenda in Russia. I believe, you know, soon we'll see sort of new laws, you know, just, limiting what what's left of of, freedom, individual freedom. I I think that they will, they will impose new security measures. Also, I think it will help Donald Trump here to, sort of, to brush off the Kremlin gate to all these accusations and to start talking again about cooperation with Russia against, radical Islamic, terrorism. Again, we don't have any proofs, and I'm I'm afraid that we'll not find the truth about Putin's crimes as long as he stays in power. So we will not we'll not find out who actually ordered the murder of Boris Nemtsov, my late friend and colleague and ally, one of the most prominent and brave Russian politicians who was murdered 2 years ago, in front of Kremlin Kremlin's gates. But Do you have a get worried you're gonna, I live in New York. I mean, it's this this this it was not my first choice, but for 4 it's 4 years 4 years since I left I left Russia. I live in New York with my family. And, you know, people keep asking me, you know, can you go back to Russia? My answer is yes. I can go back to Russia, but it'll be a one way trip. Right. So so okay. Deep Thinking by Gary Kasparov, great book about artificial intelligence plus your personal stories. And it's how to overcome your fear about artificial intelligence. You know? This is just you have to treat we have to treat human progress as something inevitable. You know? When if it's raining, you know, you can complain about it or you can buy an umbrella. You know? It's not a one dimensional story. This is not, you know, this has nothing linear. You know, this is not, you know, that, oh, you know, I read the book, I read this article, and I know everything. This is again, this is it's more it's more psychological. So this is all about us. You know? Again, fear. You know? We should not fear science. We should not fear progress. You know? Even if it may threaten us directly or indirectly, you know, maybe we can lose a job or maybe we'll not we're not sure, you know, how we can, you know, advance, in some of our endeavors. Look. You know? There's there are always ways. You know? So it's the What's a technique for thinking about how to adapt? Because, obviously, you've been doing it, but but the average person who's who is scared, what do they what do they do? Look. I again, it's the it's it's I know the the and I actually mentioned in the book, the, the the thought that, you know, that is even if I lose as an individual, you know, the human race wins, you know, as an as a whole entity. I mean, it's it's it it doesn't warm you up. Right. I understand it. But, you know, we are we all benefit from progress because, you know, we have all these devices, you know, in our pockets or in our purses, you know, that helps us to, you know, to learn more about the world. You know, just think for a moment that we have so much power, you know, in our hands, you know, in just keeping hand in our palm. It's it's 1,000 times more than the United States, had at the time when NASA had when America's landed on the moon. So with so much power, something could be done. You know, this is I don't know exactly what you can do, but there's a lot you can do because there's so much power is given to the individual. And it's very important that we are not, you know, wasting these opportunities. We're not complaining. You know, we just you know, we should be optimistic, and we should always overcome our fears. Great. Well, thank you once again, Gary, for for coming in. Deep Thinking by Gary Kasparov. It was a great book and also was a big reminder for me because I just remember being in the audience watching. And I and I and, again, I remember 1989 when Peng Shu was building the predecessor to Deep Blue. I was there. So It's mentioned in the in the book also. You know? Deep Thought, 1989, I remember it well. So thanks very much. Thank you. Thank you.
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