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And I've never hit a best sellers list the week my book goes on sale anyway. Really? That's interesting. Actually, we'll start with that. You're saying, you know, 13 things mentally strong people don't do, which sold, like, a 1000000 copies or whatever. That didn't hit the bestseller list the 1st week? It did not. I think it was a solid year and a half later after it came out that it hit the bestseller list. No way. So I really admire that. Like, it means that word like, because by then, you were done marketing. So it was word-of-mouth and just one by one, people realizing, oh, this is a book that's actually useful in my life as opposed to just simply responding to some marketing campaign. Yeah. I got some unexpected press in some unusual places along the way. And, Like what? Rush Limbaugh Oh, yeah. On on the air on a like, Monday. He said, oh, we're gonna talk about the 13 things mentally strong people don't do. He never got to it. And then Tuesday, he said, we're gonna talk about the 13 things mentally strong people don't do. Never got to it. He didn't get to it until Friday. By Friday, my books had sold out everywhere because it was over a year after the book had gone on sale, so the stores didn't even have that many copies of it, So they sold off the shelves everywhere. Wow. I did not know that. You never told me that. Will you you know, it's a weird thing because, you know, my I hate to to bring it up because I've brought it up so many times, but my article about New York City, he read that article word for word on the air. I wish it had been a book. It would have sold millions of copies. Instead, millions of people read it. And because it was Rush Limbaugh, everybody in New York's that was one of the things that contributed to everybody in New York City hating me, but the rest of the country loving me. So I didn't know that either that that he read your list. Interesting. Yeah. He he did, and and Glenn Beck did, and Joe Rogan did. I had Glenn Beck as well. Oh, yeah. So so you I wonder like, your book probably sold well in in New York City, like, because they probably didn't know that part. Because they don't like if you have any guilt by association. But your book is the sort of book that probably appeals in large cities anyway where there's a lot of people having therapy. No stigma to that, but therapy is probably more common in urban areas than rural areas is my guess. Yes. You're right. I came from rural Maine where people a lot of people were still mortified to be seen at the therapist's office. And I remember that when I first started going to New York when I wrote my book, and everybody was like, oh, I'm going to see my therapist on Thursday. And I'm like, wait. What? And it wasn't anything I was used to because people in rural places I had lived before never were that open about going to see a therapist. I don't see a therapist at the moment, but when I was seeing a therapist in New York City, I was embarrassed. Like, one time, while I was leaving, someone was coming in who I knew, and I was deeply embarrassed. I don't know why. It's because you'd maybe because there's this myth that we're supposed to be perfect. You know? And the funny thing is I'm so vulnerable on in my writing. Like, I tell all my flaws and and faults in my own writing, but then to actually have someone see me at the therapist is felt like very exposing. Right? And so and where I was a therapist in rural Maine too, I mean, it was like the principal of the school might run into one of their students or something like that in the waiting room because it's a really small community. So I get that. And even I was a therapist, and I was seeing a therapist, and I still didn't admit it. Like, I think I admitted it publicly, like, probably like you did long before I would have told my friends or family. Makes sense sense. You're a therapist, don't you have to see a therapist? Isn't it, like, part of the license that, you have to have therapy to be a therapist? Kinda make sure everyone makes a living? Well, right. So you have to see, like, a supervisor, but you can use it more, like, to talk about your cases as opposed to yourself. Like, of course, issues with yourself come up because somebody might remind you of your grandmother, or they talk to you in a certain way that makes you causes you to feel a certain emotion. But you can do it in a very, like, still like a professional way. Like, I'm struggling with this client because I have some own my own personal issues. So how do I work with this client as opposed to actually, like, diving into your own personal issues? And sometimes, in a weird way, happens on a podcast. Like and maybe you've noticed this doing your own podcast. Like, sometimes somebody will write a book that will really touch upon issues that I'm having or dealing with in in a in a bad way. Sometimes in a good way. Like, oh, I'm glad I read that. Sometimes it's like, oh, I didn't wanna think about that, but now I have to do a whole podcast about that. Yep. Exactly. Right? Yeah. And it will just touch a nerve that I don't wanna talk about or I just don't like it for whatever reason or I I disagree with it, but not in a way that I wanna get into a debate about it. I just don't like something about a certain book. Do you ever have a patient and, I mean, probably. Yeah. But do you ever have a patient that you just really, really despise? As I'm nodding my head before you even get down the question, yes. And so I learned early on that you look at your your list of who's coming into the therapy office that day and think about which patient you hope doesn't show up the most, and that's the person you probably need the most supervision about. And it was absolutely right that if there was somebody like, I hope my 1 o'clock cancels today. That's probably the person I should be talking to my supervisor about because it's something with me. What do you hate about that person? Why why does it have to be about you? Why can't it just be the person despicable person? I guess there there is that. But still, even, like, sitting with somebody who maybe is a despicable person, they haven't done anything despicable to me necessarily. So then I think, well, like, why why am I offended by their behavior? Why is it so hard to sit here? Because I would find that even people that did some pretty bad things usually still had something likable about them. Or sometimes people would tell me these stories about things that they did, and I would think, but if I met you on the street or I met you somewhere else and I didn't know this stuff about you, like, I would never guess it, and I would really like this person. So sometimes it was just more about, like, again, they reminded me of somebody or their the issues they were dealing with brought up my own insecurities or my own issues, or I didn't know how to help them. Or I felt like it was my fault that they weren't getting better faster. Or yeah. I guess there were some people that were just flat out jerks too who said rude things. And and look. This latest book, which I spoke about in the intro already, but 13 things mentally strong couples don't do. And a lot I did first off, I didn't know you did couples therapy. Do people do a lot of therapists who do individual therapy always do couples therapy, or are they usually considered I usually thought they were, like, separate types of practices. So it depends. If you if I were had been a therapist in New York City, I could probably specialize in 14 year olds with OCD and have Which is what my therapist specialized in. And then and then there was me. Oh, okay. So I was the only one who wasn't like a 14 year old girl. Really? Yeah. How did that come to be that you saw somebody that specialized in something completely different? Because I my the friend who recommended her, her daughter was seeing her. Ah. But she was so good for her daughter, and I was going through something. It was almost like I needed, like, emergency therapy surgery, and this was the best therapist she knew. So she recommended to the therapist and to me that we see each other. I see. Yeah. That makes sense then. And so in my experience in rural Maine, we didn't get to, like, specialize. There was 2 therapists in the in the whole, I don't know, county that I lived in. It was myself or my sister. So pretty much whether you were a 14 year old girl or a 75 year old man, you were stuck with one of us unless you wanted to travel a long way. And, certainly, in pre COVID days, like, the Internet wasn't an option. And still in many places in rural areas, the Internet's not fast enough to have video chats. Yeah. So, I mean, do you do a lot of therapy sessions over Zoom now? Yeah. Yeah. Now now it makes it much easier so I don't have to stop. Much better. Right? Definitely. And so back in Maine where, like, I didn't wanna see couples, I actually had no desire to see couples, but it really wasn't a choice. So I learned very quickly how to, get more comfortable with seeing couples. Yeah. What I so I'm gonna dive into what you just said. But the you know, it's interesting. This book, I feel, is the most so so you've done 13 things mentally strong people don't do, 13 things mentally strong parents don't do, 13 things mentally strong women don't do. You've you've 13 things mentally strong kids don't do. You you I really admire how you built a franchise out of it. And, you know, this one I feel is the most different. Because in the other ones, I feel the 13 things are somewhat related to the original 13 things mentally strong people don't do. But this one, for couples, it's a completely different 13 things mentally strong couples don't do. There's not really a correlation between this and the other 13 things. So I I just wanted to do a a and and by the way, I think maybe it's because of that, I felt for me, this was the most personal book you've written since the first one. The first one was very personal and and very moving about your experiences, and some of them overlap with this one. Do you have other you you talk more about your husband in this one because it's about couples. And, you know, both in the first one and this one, you talk about your your first husband. And so I just wanted to review real quickly the first book, 13 things mentally strong people don't do. Like, what led to that? I have the original article up in front of me that you wrote that had, like, millions of views, and that led to your book deal and changed your life. But what led to you writing that that original viral article? So it was really a letter to myself at, like, the worst time in my life. So my mother died when I was 23, and my husband died when he and I were both 26. It was the 3 year anniversary of the day that my mom died, that I lost my husband. And, obviously, life was terrible, and I'm supposed to be a therapist who helps other people with their problems. And I found myself in just in a really dark place for a long time, and that's not even the right phrase to say a dark place. Like, I don't even know how to describe that period in my life when I thought my twenties were gonna be amazing, and they certainly weren't. And I mean, what what what did you, I mean, try like, what what did you do during the day when you're in this dark place? Like, what couldn't you do? Yeah. So, well, I had to go to work because I didn't have any money. So I had to figure out how do I go to work and help other people deal with their problems, which was not I don't know. Yeah. I didn't know how I was gonna do that either. Like, I felt like I could barely drag myself out of bed, and yet I'm like, nobody's gonna come talk to me if they know what I'm going through. And because I lived in a small community, some of my clients knew what had just happened too. It was so bizarre. And some of them had no idea, and they would tell me about their problems, and then some of them would learn about it later. Like, I've been coming to talk to you about this issue I have, and now I know that your husband just died. And I'm like, oh, it's all good. It's fine. We can still talk about what's going on with it was the strangest, like, most surreal period of my life. I mean, did you have to, like, compartmentalize very well? Like, that must do you get into this habit of just, like, shutting off your personal life when in a in, you know, talking about other people's personal lives? I did. So it was kinda like, you know, I'd get used to, like, stepping into the office in the morning. I worked for an agency at the time, so there was a bunch of other therapists who thank goodness I worked with other therapists too. Who knew? Like and so we had a meeting before I came back where, like, we sat down, and they were like, how do we help you, and what would be most helpful to you? And they, like, made a pact. Like, we're not gonna just because we crossed you in the hallway, we're not gonna say, how you doing today? Because we don't want you to burst into tears at 2 PM. And I was like, that is a great idea. Let's make sure. And they would ask me, like, what if we checked in with you, like, maybe after work every once in a while? Is that okay? I was like, absolutely. Well, that was great that they were up front and talked to you about it because that's Right. A very awkward situation in the workplace often. It is because I think then people feel like they want to acknowledge it, but I get that. I didn't people to come up to me during my lunch break and say, gosh. I'm so sorry. How are you? And to have this really deep discussion about my problems while I'm supposed to be paying attention to other people's problems. So that was a huge thing that they did. And, in fact, they had contacted me before my husband's funeral and said, honestly, do you want us to come? Like, we would all like to be there for you. But if it's too weird for, like, your boss to meet your dad, like, we don't need to come either. So you tell us what you want. And I was so grateful that they did that. And then I tried to get short term disability, and they didn't cover grief. So they said, sorry. You get 3 days off. And because my sister's a therapist, she marched me into the doctor's office, like, literally went with me, and she's like, look at her. She can't go to work as a therapist. Diagnose her with acute stress disorder, which is, like, the precursor to PTSD. And the doctor did, and then I was able to get 3 months off from work, for short term disability because they'll cover acute stress disorder, but they won't cover grief. Won't they won't they cover depression? They would. Yes. But at the time, there was, like, this weird thing about grief and depression pretty much didn't happen simultaneously in terms of how diagnoses worked. It was like if you were grieving if you were depressed for the 1st year, it was just considered grief. Strange, but true. Wow. So you can't have depression clinically if someone around you died. Right. Back in the day, that was the deal that I mean, this was a 2003, so it wasn't or 2006, so it wasn't like it was a 1000000 years ago, but they've since shifted and figured out, yeah, sometimes grief quickly turns into depression. Or it could trigger depression. Right. Or you could have been depressed already, and that made it worse. Exactly. So so so okay. You you but then what do you do? You wrote this letter to yourself? Yeah. So I write this letter to myself that's basically like, okay, Amy. If you've learned anything from your losses, but also from being a therapist, it's like, don't do these certain things, and you'll probably be okay. And I but since I also needed money, like, I didn't have enough money as a therapist, I needed extra money on on the side. And one of my ways of earning extra money was to write articles, and I wrote articles for $15 so that I could keep my heat on. It was like I got $600 a month from writing, and that was enough money so I could have heat in Maine in the winter. Wait. How many articles did you write a month? That's, like, 40 articles. Right. So I was churning them out after working on the weekends as quickly as I could. Some of them I got paid $25 for, but it was 15 to $25 per article. And as long as I made $600 a month, I could afford my mortgage and continue to live in my house, which was super important to me. I didn't wanna move. I had, like, lost felt like I'd lost everything else. The last thing I wanted to do was pack up and move. So So who who did you turn to in, like, your grief? Like, did you have close friends? Was your was your your mother had passed away, but was your father around? Or Yeah. So my dad is around. He was just getting into a relationship with somebody that had younger kids. And Were were you resenting that he was getting into a relationship within, you know, 3 years of, your mom passing away? I wasn't, like, overly resent like, I wanted him to be happy. The last thing I wanted was for him to be alone. He was 19 when he and my mom got together. He'd never really been alone. So I wanted him to be with somebody. I don't think that he went about it in a way that I would have. I think he immediately thought we were gonna all be this one big happy family. I was still grieving the loss of my mom, and then I was grieving the loss of my husband. So then to, like, be part of another family all of a sudden wasn't anything I was particularly interested in that moment. Right. And they're all happy and bonding, and you're still feeling detached from everything. That that'd be correct. That's good to see. Sister? Oh, my sister was amazing. So she was pregnant with her first child when my husband passed away. And and so her family was growing at the same time, but she she and her husband were amazing and really helpful to me. It's very interesting. You wrote this article in not in this, like, condescending way. Like, this is what mentally strong people do or don't do because I'm mentally strong. I don't know. You're you're sort of, like, reminding yourself that you need to do these things. Right. And so then I thought, just don't do these things, and you'll be okay. No matter what happens today, Amy, just don't feel sorry for yourself. Interesting because and we'll talk about the specific things in a second. But each one of these items on on your initial book slash article, 13 things mentally strong people don't do, they're all about things that, basically, if you do these things that you shouldn't do, they're not gonna none of these things are gonna improve your life. So that's why you really shouldn't do them. Exactly. And, you know, we all do them sometimes. But on the other hand, the more you do them, the worse life gets. So I just wanted to be like, just don't do these things. And then I thought I'm just gonna tuck this letter in my pocket and hold on to it, but then it dawned on me, yeah, maybe it'll help somebody else. So I put it on the Internet again just expecting a handful of people to read it. I never imagined it would go viral or that I'd write a book or that I'd be here all these years later still talking about it. But it's an exciting thing when when an item like that changes your life and really and you really are able to run with it. So let me just say a few of these things. So, and, actually, as a test to listeners, just think about the last time you did one of these things that mentally strong people don't do, and I will do that as well. So they don't waste time feeling sorry for themselves. I did that today, and it's only 1:30 PM in the afternoon. They don't give away their power. I probably haven't done that today or or but I've certainly done it recently. They don't shy away from change. I'm good at change. I welcome change. They don't waste energy on things they can't control. I do that all the time. They don't worry about pleasing everyone. I probably do that more often than I would like. They don't fear taking calculated risks. I'm I'm good with that one. They don't dwell in the past. I'm not good with that one. They don't make the same mistakes over and over. I do that all the time. They don't resent other people's success. I'm good at noticing when I do that, and then I don't do it. But I I it's a social media thing. Like, if you're going on social media and I see something, I'll think it for half a second, then I'll notice I'm I'm resenting something, and then I'll stop. They don't give up after the first failure. I definitely don't do that. They don't fear alone time. I don't do that. They don't feel the world owes them anything. I'm okay with that. They don't expect immediate results. I want immediate results all the time. So, like, how many of those things, Amy, do you still do? Yeah. As you were going through the list, I was thinking, again, about some of those things I still did today. Like, if I were honest, like, yeah, I probably gave away my power today. I was dealing with another company, and I'm blaming them for things. And I'm like, you know, perhaps I could have empowered myself more. It's hard when you're publishing a book, by the way, is that you would think the you know, I'm not putting down your publisher. Your publisher's Harper Collins. Right? Right. And I I love harp Harper Collins. I my last book, Skip the Line, was with Harper Collins. They've always been very good to me. But just the publishing business in general, you think that this big $1,000,000,000 institution will lift a finger to help you market your book, and they do lift a finger. But you think that you're that you're under the myth that they're gonna do a lot more. And this is not blaming the publishing industry. This is just the industry. You really have to do it yourself, and everybody falls under into the trap of thinking they're gonna help you more than they will. Yeah. I remember when I wrote my first book, and I was like, woo hoo. It's all done. And I didn't know, like, no. The work is just beginning. Writing a book is only a small fraction of the battle. And marketing, you know, if you're a writer and not a marketer, marketing is much harder than writing, and you have to do a lot of it. So that's that's one of the reasons why I like self publishing is that you could kinda do it at your own pace. But, yeah. So that's that that's definitely one of those situations. But when I when I was reading this 13 things mentally strong couples don't do, it's it struck me how often I've done these things too that mentally strong couples don't do. And it's a couple's 2 people. So one or or both of the people do in in order to do one of the things mentally strong couples don't do, it just takes 1 person or the couple to do one of these 13 things, and then there's a problem. And I've definitely done all 13 of these probably fairly recently too. And and and, you know, I've been to couples therapy. Let's see. Marriage 1, marriage 2, and and at least 2 relationships. And I really hate going to couples therapy. Like, I I I think I'm gonna ask you a lot of questions. I I don't mean to be hiding this, but I feel like like with any profession, the top 5% are good and the other 95% are damaging. And I'm talking about this is not just therapists, but, like, doctors, lawyers, accountants, like, any profession that's help helping individuals, you really have to make sure that you're going to the top 5%. Because it's it's true for any profession, 95% are just not gonna be that good. And but for couples therapy, if you go to one that's not good, your relationship is in danger. I wholeheartedly agree with that, that there are some times you might go to a therapist who says something quite damaging or they say something that is not helpful at all, but especially in a relationship. You go to somebody who takes sides and makes it clear who they side with, or you go to somebody who, I don't know, gives you really bad advice. It could be terrible for your relationship. Yeah. And and, again, I wanna go over the specific 13 things, but I feel like the taking sides thing is a big issue. Like, do you take side when you see couples, do you ever find yourself taking sides a little bit? Yeah. I mean, of course, in my head, I'm thinking like, well, no wonder she does this. It's because you're doing that. Or we're gonna have couples that come in and like, can you believe it? Would you stay with somebody who did x, y, and z? And what if your partner did something like this to you? And I'm thinking, yeah. Well, I'd be upset too. So it is tough to remember. Like, it's not my job to take side. It's not my job to decide who's right and who's wrong. It's about helping this couple work together, but, of course, we're human beings too. Yeah. And the other problem I had with couples therapy is, like, you know, you go on a regular basis. Like, you sign up to go every week, say. And, sometimes a week might be good. And so let's say I'm going to couples therapy with I haven't gone to couples therapy with my current wife, but let's say in a prior relationship, it's almost like in the cab on the way there, we're trying to figure out, like, what what what it's like we're doing homework. Well, what went wrong that we could talk about? Right. And so that's a drag too. And I've worked with couples too who then, like, throughout the course of the week, they're trying to be on their best behavior because because they're like, I don't want you to bring this up in counseling next week. So then they, like, either avoid subjects because they're like, I don't wanna get in a fight about this because then we'll have to talk about it, or they just they find that they're kinda tiptoeing around things or they're extra pleasant 2 days before therapy all because they're really just trying to avoid having to discuss difficult subjects in therapy. So instead of really working on their relationship, it becomes more about making sure a therapy appointment is as easy, as smooth as possible. And then I guess the the third thing that tends to happen in in a therapy session in a couple's therapy session for me is I sort of instinctively go into the mode where I want the therapist to like me more Yeah. Than my partner. And, it's just like an an instinct. So I will act in ways that I feel like I I feel I'm winning the session, and and that's that's not that healthy either. It's not. And I think sometimes in in the therapy session, somebody who maybe struggles with something outside of the office, you could hold it together right there in front of the therapist. So then they're like, no. I don't really struggle with that. I'm not sure what my partner is talking about. Or but there's always two sides to a story, and we get to decide the how we're gonna paint the picture too. So then people sometimes will be like, you know, my version is this and yours is that. But yet yeah, just trying to get the therapist to align with with us and to like us better is certainly something that I think is pretty natural. Like, we wanna be liked. Yeah. Yeah. I think, and and, look, some people are better at being likable than others. So in a in a couple, you know, one person could win the session, potentially. Right. So the first thing mentally strong couples don't do is they don't ignore their problems. So, like, let's say, they're really scared about money or debt or paying the mortgage, and they express that anxiety in different ways. And so the relationship has a problem, but they're kind of ignoring, like, the real root of this and talking about it and and not getting angry and defensive and so on. And money is a big one that people ignore, so I'm glad you brought that up. Because sometimes it'll be we have different values about money, so we don't know how to talk about it, or it's too anxiety provoking to really sit down and look at the budget. Or sometimes one person earns more than the other, so they aren't sure how to divide expenses. Or one person has a different taste, and they like expensive things more than the other person. It brings up a lot of issues, our own values, our the way that we handle money, but then you try to combine that with somebody else. So it means we're either gonna argue about it or we're gonna disagree. We have to agree to disagree, or your partner might want you to change your habits. Lots of reasons why people are like, I'm just gonna sweep this under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist. Do you find people tend to fix these things? Like, I feel like sometimes these patterns are so ingrained. You know? Like, let's say the problem is the woman feels she does all the housework, and the man feels he makes all the money, and they were both resent each other for that. And so that's, like, a common thing. They sort of split the difference on these 2 different ideas. Do they but did they ever really solve it? Like, it's sort of so built into our culture to think that way. And that's that's a common one that a lot of couples will feel like that. And so I think sometimes it's just about understanding each other. Like, alright. My partner thinks x, y, and z. I think this. We don't have to think the same way, but just understanding and having some empathy over perhaps this is what their experience is like, and is there another way of looking at it? Just opening yourself up to that possibility can go a long way. What if one person thinks there's a problem, but the other person doesn't? Like, I when one person comes in, I don't think we have any problem. I'm fine with the marriage, and the other person's like, this this this. Like, does that happen a lot? That happens all the time. And so I try to tell people, well, you don't have to agree that there's a problem. But if your partner thinks there's a problem, there is some kind of a problem whether you agree with it or not. And so then it becomes do you need to, is the problem to be solved? Is that just maybe helping your partner see things differently and changing their mind about the problem? Or might you change your behavior? Even if you don't agree that your behavior is a problem, it doesn't mean you can't change it. This next one is very important. They don't keep secrets. I think this is, like, the most important thing. Although the level to what's a secret and what's just, hey. I didn't know that was so important or whatever is is tricky, the the line there. It is. So most people would say, yeah. Obviously, you're not gonna keep a huge secret if you, you know, have a serious health issue or you have a whole bunch of debt, you should probably tell that to your partner. But on the other hand, people will justify things like, well, yeah, I had coffee with my ex the other day, but it didn't mean anything, so I don't need to tell you about it. Or my coworker and I have been flirting a lot lately, but, obviously, I'm not gonna tell my partner about that because it would upset them. So people often go to great lengths to justify the secrets that they keep by saying, I don't tell my partner because they wouldn't understand or because I don't wanna upset them. But it's usually not about protecting your partner. It's really about protecting yourself. What's a secret where someone's a couple's come to you? And, you know, you talk about examples in the book, but secrets that a couple's come to you with, whether one side or the other was keeping a secret. And you really did feel that was an inappropriate secret to keep, but the person insisted, no. No. It was no big deal. So I've had people that have had children, like, before they got married, and they like, there was a man who had a child, many years ago, but he didn't tell his current wife that he there was a kid out there that existed that was his. And he was like, you know, I'm not sure because if she'll really understand. He was paying child support on this child and, like, under the table so that she wouldn't he went to great lengths to make sure that this his current wife didn't know that he had a child from a previous relationship. But he wasn't seeing the child at all? Nope. I guess because he had a bad end with the relationship, and maybe she had a a new boyfriend or whatever who's gonna help raise the kid, so she didn't wanna confuse the kid. Or I'm putting the nicest possible interpretation to it, but it's still a little weird. Yeah. And I think he'd gone years without seeing the child and probably felt guilty about that. So he was like, I don't wanna step into the kid's life now. So he just thought it was better if it was left unsaid. But I've had lots of experiences like that where people have something from their past that they think this doesn't affect my current relationship, so I don't need to tell. But sometimes it was big things that definitely their partner would have wanted to know. Yeah. Although, I see where the guy is coming from. He probably was a little insecure and didn't want his current wife to leave him. And it got it gets bigger and bigger, of course, the longer you keep the secret. Even though knowing this might not have anything to do one way or the other with her affection for him, he probably was just really scared. Right. And I've had other people who had been married before, and somehow they were able to keep that a secret when they got remarried that it just never came up. And so they might have had an entire past life that their career partner knew nothing about. Wow. They don't hesitate to set boundaries. I always I think this is an interesting one. I always have a hard time understanding what boundaries are. So it's like a word that's used a lot. Like, oh, you knew you need to respect boundaries or you need to set boundaries. But, like, what's an example? So it might be a boundary within a relationship might be saying, like, I'm not gonna give you my password to my social media account, or you can't have the password to my my phone. And you and your partner might decide, like, that's an okay boundary for the 2 of you to have. And then the 2 of you also need boundaries with the outside world too. So you might decide my mother-in-law isn't gonna come over unannounced, or we're not gonna loan money to people, family members without talking to each other first, or I'm not gonna loan out the car unless I talk to my partner because we don't just give our things away because our boundaries might be a little bit tighter than that. Yeah. Those are all reasonable ones. On the social media one, like, what would you do right now if your husband today said, look. I can I see your phone and your emails? I'd give it to him, and I know he'd be bored to tears within about 30 seconds. He doesn't even have social media, so he like, well, why are you posting all this? And I don't have anything to hide. So for me, it wouldn't be an issue. And I don't think that it's always about something to hide. Like, if I were having a lot of private conversations with my friends and they were maybe about my friend's issues, if my friend was texting me that she had a specific personal issue in her life, that may not be my partner's business to then be able to say to my husband, yeah. You can go ahead and read all these messages that she sent just to me. So I don't think it's an issue necessarily when people say, I'm not gonna give you all my passwords. Yeah. I think I think there's a reverse issue too, which is why do you feel the need to see Right. My email? So that could be a bigger issue. Yeah. People that struggle with, say, jealousy or insecurity, they often think if I check your phone, I'll feel better. But it doesn't work like that. Because when people are snooping, they're usually looking for evidence that somebody's cheating or that they're up to something. When you don't find that evidence, you don't, like, then breathe a huge sigh of relief. You usually then think, well, they probably have a secret phone, or maybe they use a different app, or maybe I should be listening in on their phone calls. So for people who struggle with that, it usually just kinda ups the ante, and they want more. I think, like I'm thinking now 30 years ago. I was in a relationship where I was suspicious, and it almost becomes like a once like, you never like you say, you never get satisfied. It it's almost like a full time job. Like, what's she up to now? Right. Right. And it doesn't you you never solve anything because the only thing that's gonna make you happy is to be really sad, is to find something that's bad. So, like, oh, I was right. Oh, no. I was right. So, they don't become martyrs. What does that mean? So when there's that tendency to be like, I've given everything for this relationship, or I have to do everything around here, or, I've sacrificed everything for my family, but you don't do it with joy. There's a difference between being like, oh, sure. I don't really wanna do that today, but the family wants to, so I'll go I mean, like, I don't know any parent that's like, I love watching my child's 4th grade play for 3 hours. Right? But you do it because you love your kid. But when you become a martyr, it's more about, like, I did that, and I had to do it, and I hated every second of it. And, even when somebody maybe offers to help, like a partner who says, hey. Can I help you with that? Like, nope. Because you don't do it right. So I'm gonna do it all myself. And is there, like, a chip on your shoulder where there's this bitterness and resentment about everything that you do, claiming it's for the other person, yet sometimes they didn't even ask you to do it. You're just going above and beyond and then complaining about the fact that you have to keep doing all this stuff. And so with a lot of these and this is we've we've read before, but there's I'll go through some some of the others. With a lot of these, it's just is it just a matter of just being really up front as quickly as possible? Like, hey. I'll do this, but it I just want you to be aware. I'm doing more here. And I don't know. Like, how do you talk about that? Yeah. I think a lot of problems would be solved if we were way more up front and if our partners when we express those things, if our partners just hurt us. So, usually, what happens is when somebody says, hey. I'm, like, carrying 80% of the load around here. Their partner is usually quick to be like, oh, yeah. I'm carrying a 150% of the load, and here's why. And it gets into this argument of, like, who's doing more? If we just listen to each other, like, oh, you feel like you're doing a lot more. Tell me more about that. Almost 90% of conversations like that could go much smoother, and people could come to an agreement or figure out how do we move forward. But so often, we don't wanna listen, and we've all been there. Somebody says, hey. I'm struggling with this, and we're like, yeah. Well, I'm struggling with that twice as much. And it just becomes like this competition of who has it the most or who's devoting the most energy, and then nothing ever becomes of it because you can't agree on who's the biggest martyr, who's doing sacrificing the most for the relationship. I have an idea for you on how you you can write you know, obviously, you write follow-up articles that are related to the book as part of the marketing. You could write 13 scripts, or maybe you have 13 articles, like scripts for because what you just said about what they should say, that like you said, 90% of the time, that just diffuses it right there. And I feel like if people know these scripts and really pay attention to them, that will solve a lot of these issues. That's a great idea, and I think I'll do that because you're right. People will often say, like, exactly what do I say? How do we have these conversations? So to give people the and I do that too when I read a book, and people are like, well, just bring up this issue. I wanna know exactly what do I say in order to get what I what it is I want. Because, I mean, it it's gotta be like, every couple probably has this conversation hundreds of times in their relationship. You know, I feel like I'm working 12 hours a day every day on blah blah blah. Oh, yeah. Well, I'm working 15 hours a day, and it's more stressful, and it's harder. So I feel like that happens all the time. Absolutely. Whether we're talking about money or, like, household responsibilities, parenting, like, emotional labor, whatever it is. Yeah. There's always that push and pull of, like, who's doing more? And there's gonna be times where one person does more than the other. Like, it's not gonna be 5050 probably ever, but when we can have those discussions too, like, hey. I'm working my job is gonna require more during the holidays, so I'm gonna have as much energy to put into the household. But it's temporary. You have those conversations up front. That kind of stuff can go a long way toward helping relationships too. Right. Like, so so, like, there's all these scripts that people that aren't even aware they can say these things because they feel like it might provoke a fight because that's what they're used to. Because they're used to the the keeping score, aspect of these things. Like, I did 12. No. I did 14. No. I did 17. Like, when you could diffuse things without keeping score in one of using one of these scripts that you've been saying right here. So Right. Because I think the rebuttal is where somebody says, I've been working 14 hours, and the other person says, I only work 10, but my job's harder. Right? And then it's like we're comparing apples to oranges, yet for some reason, we always do wanna up the ante. And it's so obvious that keeping score is not gonna solve a problem. Right. Yet we all Coming back with, like yeah. Coming back with, like, no. You're wrong. I do more is never gonna has never solved any relation like, no one's gonna say, you know, you're right. I love you, honey. Right. No one's ever gonna say that. They don't use their emotions as weapons. I think that's a really important one. It is. And as a therapist, I was like, oh, I'm gonna be cautious with this one. Because the last thing you wanna do is if your partner's crying, be like, I think you're weaponizing your sadness in those tears right now. But on the other hand, so many people do this where they're like, yeah, I wasn't actually anxious. I didn't wanna do that thing. So I said, oh, I have anxiety. I can't do that. Or how many people use anger just as a way to get out of a conversation or to escape doing something? Like, I just raised my voice a little, and then I didn't have to do it because I pretended like I couldn't control my temper. And so the more that, you know, when we talk about this in the therapy office all the time, when when people get honest, they often get really honest. Like, yeah. I do that. Or people would say, yeah. I suspect my partner does that quite a bit too. Yeah. And it's it's it's again, it's tricky on both sides. Like, it's it's easy to do it without even realizing you're doing it, and it's easy. I've definitely noticed it in different partners when they've been doing it. Like, I had one I had one time a friend of mine, I I was I called this friend of mine. Oh, I'm having an argument with my girlfriend. And he said, oh, and he he was, like, kind of, like, a dating expert. So he said, okay. When she comes in and starts bringing it up, say this, this, and this. And he predicted exactly. Okay. She's gonna walk over the window, and she's gonna start crying. And everything he predicted actually came true because he was just assuming everybody manipulates everyone else, and this is what a manipulator would do. And, it was really fascinating to see, like, different he wasn't being a therapist for me. He was just describing, like, this is what's going to happen, and here's how you could win this situation. That is fascinating. And I think there are patterns like that often. And, you know, if your partner struggles with an anxiety disorder, you don't wanna discredit that. You may need to help them with something. But on the other hand, if your partner always says like, oh, I can't do that. I have anxiety. You don't wanna just give in and be like, okay. I'll do everything around here because you struggle with this. Or when they start crying, it doesn't necessarily have to mean you end all conversations because then you don't have difficult conversations. And I see that happen all the time where people are like, we had to avoid this, this, and this because we can't talk about it because my partner gets too upset. Yeah. You know, and another thing too about the the keeping score, I think everybody thinks things should be equal all the time. But it's like you just pointed out. Like, sometimes somebody really does do more than the other. And it's not like we're every relationship is like a communist relationship. Like, sometimes there's imbalance, but me being upfront and acknowledging that is is useful. Yeah. There's seasons in our life. If you're taking care of an aging parent or you're dealing with, again, something stressful at work for a while, things like that, or you develop a health issue or you're struggling with something, like, yeah, you might need the other person to step it up for a while. And there may not be a a definitive timeline. You might be like, for a while, I need some extra help, or I'm gonna need you to do x, y, and z. Be great if we could say it's just for the next 6 weeks, but it might be for a lot longer than that too. Yeah. Yeah. And that's hard because then, like, what if some what if because somebody's dealing with something or working so hard, they're emotionally unavailable for a certain period of time, but you just don't know how long. Like, how could they help each other in those situations? Again, I think it's about those conversations of saying, like, like, let's say I'll I'll use the one of somebody taking care of an aging parent. That's a really common one where somebody says, you know, my my mom or my dad needs a lot of extra help around their house right now, so I'm gonna be over there a lot. Then to figure out, well, how can I still meet some of my partner's emotional needs? And it might be that I call you every day for 20 minutes on my commute home so that we can touch base. And then when I get home, there's 15 minutes of sitting and talking about these things. But or Friday nights, I'm not gonna go over to my mom or dad's house. Instead, we're gonna we're gonna go out just the 2 of us. But if you come up with some sort of a plan that says this is what we're gonna do as opposed to the other person feeling like I'm never gonna get what I need. It's not fair. And they sit around thinking about those thoughts. Things get worse. Sorry. Like, I remember, when I was a kid, my dad was super depressed, and depression doesn't have, like, a timeline. And I remember my mom's mom, my grandmother kept telling my mom, just divorce him. And, like, in front of me, she would keep be always say that. And it really left an impression on me that if you're depressed, there's a chance your wife, girlfriend, partner, whatever is gonna leave you. And the flip side is, of course, is that's the time when couples who are committed to each other should really try to support each other, but it's I I imagine it's a difficult time for both. It is. And I'll have people that come into my therapy office on the other end of that, and they'll say, like, you know, my partner has a has a problem. It might be a physical health issue, a mental health issue, or substance abuse issue. And they'll be like, you know, but they're not getting better fast enough. Or maybe the other person's not taking any action at all, and they're like, I, you know, married this person. I promised for in sickness and in health, but, like, what's my responsibility here? If somebody has a a drinking problem for 20 years and nothing has changed where they're like, do I really have to keep sticking it out longer? Or or do I set up a timeline that says I can only handle this for a certain amount of time? And sometimes that's what people end up doing. Yeah. I mean, really, like, marriage is not really different from I mean, this was controversial, but marriage is not really different from being, like, boyfriend, girlfriend. It's just that it becomes boyfriend, girlfriend in the eyes of the government. Right. And so then there's legal stuff involved. Like, it's marriage is just like a a boyfriend girlfriend that got legal. Right. And so it's not like you have to stay with the other person, but then but the flip side is, you know, if you're if you're committed and you wanna you really wanna be in a relationship for the rest of your life and and build and grow old together, then there's certain obligations to that that are sometimes difficult. And I see a lot of people who, because they're legally married, feel like we have to stay together. And sometimes it's practical reasons because I don't have a retirement fund. And after 30 years, like, I can't afford to live on my own. Sometimes it's for the sake of the kids or people are like, we're not really compatible, but I'm gonna wait till the kids turn 18. Or sometimes it's just a religious where somebody says, you know, my religion doesn't allow me to get divorced, so we're gonna stick it out. So for couples who are gonna stick it out for whatever reason, like, well, then let's make it the best we can. And then for other couples who are able to be like, you know, perhaps I picked the wrong partner, like, that's okay too. Like, I'm not in favor of saying, you know, you should stick it out no matter what. So Sometimes people are just happier when they say, you know, we got married when we were young, and now we're different people. Like, that's okay too. Yeah. Yeah. Because and because there's also a stigma just in society to someone's been married 7 times, you would think that there's something wrong with them. Right. Right. Exactly. So there there might be, but there might not be. Or just everybody you know, we do live in a free world, and and people should do what they want. Certainly, people in in today's world, people have been involved in more than 7 relationships. But if someone is in 7 marriages, we think, oh my god. This person's a horrible person. Right. Yeah. And I think you can only link some states. You can only get married 7 times. That's the limit. Right? Really? I think so. Is that really true? I know right. And the reason I know that is because there's somebody who lives in my community down here. I think he's on marriage number 6, so people are joking around with him. Like, you only got one one left. Wow. I mean, that's true in Florida. I don't know. You would think that Florida man is allowed to marry as many times he wants, though. We'll have to talk to Dave Barry about that. They don't try to fix each other. Yeah. So, of course, not a lot of people come to therapy saying, here's what I I'd like to work on, and I brought my partner just to hold me accountable. Like, that doesn't normally happen. When people bring their partner to to therapy, it's usually, here's my partner, and they're a jerk, and I need you to be on my side so that you can tell them why they need to change their behavior because I'll be happy if they change. And then sometimes people have gone to great lengths to try to fix the other person. It might be something small like, my partner's kinda shy, so I like to draw them out of their shell. Maybe your partner's fine with being shy. They don't wanna be the most outgoing person in the room. But in other cases, the example I give in the book is a woman who's married to somebody with a serious substance abuse problem, and she goes to Great Lakes to try to change his his drinking habits, which is something we see often too where somebody says, you know, my partner is self destructive, or they're hurting themselves, and they don't know it. So how do I fix this? And then that's obviously a lot of work, and it's really distressing to think that you have to fix somebody else. It's a lot of work. I remember that that example. It's a lot of work, and there's a lot of pain too because you would like things to be great immediately. Like, she says to her husband, you know, I don't want you going to the bar so much after work and being late for dinner and so on. So so that's painful. And, obviously, she would like the next day for him to not to go to the bar, to come home and have dinner with her, and they're laughing and joking and eating well and all is good. But that doesn't happen. So she starts, eating dinner by herself and putting leftovers in the refrigerator, not complaining, but just taking actions that so she's doing what she's taking care of herself. And then by him seeing what she was doing, he gradually kind of started to change and and and so on. But you have to sort of say, okay. I'm going to do this, but for a long time, I'm gonna be still unhappy while I do this. Because that wasn't her ideal solution either. No. And there's no guarantee, like, that changing my behavior is gonna change my partner's behavior. Of course, that's the hope. And there are an entire, like, therapy systems. Like, community reinforcement. Family training is one that is based on if you're in a relationship with somebody with substance abuse problem. There's no guarantee. A lot of people are able to get their partner's behavior to change because, basically, the more I try to change my partner, the more that more defensive they get. If I quit trying to change them and I just focus on my behavior, there's a good chance that they'll follow suit, but there's no guarantee of that. And that's tough to do because it means I have to kinda come to that conclusion of I can't control your behavior. I have to deal with all of this discomfort that's going on with me watching you self destruct or watching you do these things that are really unhealthy. I mean, you've seen so many couples, and and, hopefully, you've also seen couples who have been mostly happy and not unhappy. Like, what do you think are the signs of a really good couple that should stay together no matter what? I think the the couples that can listen to each other and that they can empathize with the other person and that they just really wanna know, like, okay. What's going on? And even if it's painful to hear, I want you to tell me anyway. Like, is there something I do that's that's difficult or annoying? And and for couples who can, I guess, listen into that, talk about it, and and then they they have that commitment to say, yeah? We're gonna stay together. We're gonna work through these things. And even though it's hard, I'm not gonna abandon you. I'm gonna stay right here. You know, you mentioned something in the book that I thought was really interesting that you say it tends to be that the people who kind of almost brag about their happiness or their relationships on social media too much, those tend to be the unhappiest couples. Like, that's obviously just anecdotal, but do you think it's that's really true? Yeah. And I I think there's research behind that one that when people are people brag about their partner and their relationship online, it's more like they're looking for external validation. Not to say you can't show some happy pictures and and talk positively about your partner. Obviously, you don't wanna go on social media and complain about your partner. But the people who do it the most often are looking for validation. Like, see, don't we look happy together? Because perhaps they don't feel like they're in a happy relationship. Otherwise, they wouldn't need that validation from other people. Yeah. I think I think it's I think it's really true. And I was just I'm think I was I was struck by that because just the other day, I was thinking about a couple that I knew, like, 10 years ago. And it was the period when I was single, and I was asking I was asking this couple, what's your maybe it was like I don't know when it was. Like, 8 or 9 years ago. And I was asking them what their checklist was. They both said that they had a checklist before they met, and eat the other person had really matched that checklist. And they're huge they were huge on social media. Like, oh, I love her so much. I love him so much, my life partner. And then I just found out, I was wondering, like, whatever happened to that couple? And just, like, a month ago, they announced their divorce. And so then I read your what you said here, and I was I it made me think of that up about this couple I had just recently researched. Interesting. Because I think sometimes people get envious of those couples, and then you find out, oh, wasn't perhaps what we thought it was. Yeah. I think I was envious of them. And then it's funny, though, because they had built up such a social media presence as a couple, in all the comments, everybody was like, oh, she did it. She she was doing something probably. Like, look how she had changed her clothes in the past 6 months. Like, everyone's trying to, like, find everything from, like, their pictures, like, 4 months ago and and so on. Right. Yep. So, like, everybody gets involved too. If you if it if you're going on social media with it, you gotta expect the the ramifications of that. And we all want evidence of, like, I should've seen this coming, and here's why. You know? And then you hindsight is 2020. So you go back and you pick it apart, and you're, trying to connect the dots of, like, clearly, this was going on. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of like when someone dies, you always wanna know, like, why. Right. And you like and it's so funny. Like, in on and, again, this is related to social media. I'm faced with somebody who will say, oh, you know, so and so was 26 years old, passed away, you know, funerals at this and they don't say why. Why would a 26 year old, you know, die? And, you know, it might be when they don't say it, so you start thinking, well, it was suicide or something. So you wanna know, well, was it were they depressed, or did something bad happen to them, or did they, you know, have cancer? And so they got depressed from that. And you you really do, like, wanna know, and it's the same thing with couples. Like, you wanna know so that it doesn't happen to you. So you could say, oh, phew. At least that's not my situation. Right. Because they were like, oh, we find out somebody had cancer, and you're like, did they smoke? And then he's like, well, as long as I don't smoke, then I'm good to go. Right? Yeah. Do they live on 3 3 Mile Island or some radioactive area? Or yeah. So you wanna know that it's not you're fine, but everybody else is having a problem. Right. They don't blame each other for their problems. I think I'm guilty of that quite a bit. As are most people, I think, where people are like, you know, we'd be happier if my partner would change. Yeah. Yeah. Or if, oh, my partner wanted to do this, so I did it, but now I have all these problems or whatever. Yes. I think this one actually maybe is the most important because this one is prescriptive. They don't forget why they fell in love. Yeah. And, like, the prescription is remind yourself why you fell in love, and both sides should do that. Right. There's a reason you pick this person. I mean, there's however many people there are on the planet and that you've come in contact with, and you pick this one person. So there's a reason that you picked them, and there's a reason that they picked you. And just keeping that in perspective so that even when you aren't feeling the most loving feelings ever, you're still then motivated to be like, alright. I I I picked you for a reason, and and here's why it's still worthwhile to work through these problems that we have. And you say I didn't even think you suggest there's research that just looking at photos of your spouse compared with what looking at other photos improves feelings of infatuation with your partner. Right. If you made your partner your wallpaper on your phone or you have a little folder on your phone and you just look at their photo throughout the day, like, it actually improves how you feel about them. And then when we have more positive feelings about our partner, guess what? We're more tolerant of them leaving their socks in the middle of the floor, or we don't get so upset with them when those little things annoy us because we're still remembering. Yeah. I still have deep feelings for this person. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really important. They don't expect the relationship to meet all their needs. That's an interesting one too, particularly in this period post COVID where we've all gotten more remote and more isolated, and sometimes the relationship has had to meet more needs than normal. Right. The people, I think, are depending on their partners more now than ever to be their, recreational companion. We're gonna everything fun, we do together, and I also need you to be my, emotional support. I need you to be the person who's gonna build me up or give me business advice, but also the person that's gonna let me have independence when I need it. And you think, wow. We're putting a lot of pressure on somebody to then be that same person that you're gonna have a romantic relationship plus a financial relationship, and you're gonna build a household together. And you think that's really tough when we put that much pressure on one person. Yeah. They don't neglect their partnership. I think that's you know? And and that's that's related to the next chapter too. They don't take each other for granted. I think I think these are common things as well, like, that is very easy to to fall into just a routine of neglect. It is. And after people have been together for, like, 10 or 20 years, they're like, you know, we have more like a business relationship. And a lot of the people that come into my therapy office, it's not because they fight too much. It's just because they don't really connect anymore. And that boredom tends to kill a lot of relationships probably more than conflict does or people are like, we don't really fight, but on the other hand, we don't really enjoy each other's company. Maybe we get along fine, and we manage the household responsibilities or parenting or money okay, but it's not, like doesn't really run any deeper than that either. And and which is related to the next thing. They don't stop growing and changing. And I think you have to do that individually and kind of respect that in the partner, but then coming together at the end of the day to kind of be fascinated by all the growth and change is is key. It is, and it's a tricky balance. Like, I wanna grow and change and be a different person, and I want you to still love me in a few years. And I expect you to grow and change as well, but we also need to grow and change together as a couple and make sure that we don't grow apart. So but, obviously, you can't just be the exact same human being that you were when you got together in the first place. Hopefully, you do grow and change and learn new things and, as you say, keep each other fascinated and interested in one another over time, and it's a difficult balance sometimes. You know, all this begs the question about what should one do in life? Like, there's all this research that loneliness reduces 15 years to your life. It's as if you were like, being lonely is equivalent to to smoking all your life in terms of lifespan. So you think, okay. Well, if I'm married, I won't be lonely, which, of course, is not always true. Often, it's not true at all. So I think there's all these counterbalancing things. Like, when should one leave a marriage or a relationship? I think once people, like, lose that desire, like, when you don't have any interest in in changing or you've given up all hope that your partner's ever gonna change or that you can change anything, the question would be, like, why stay? Like, what would be your motivation to stay? And if it's just, say, financial, maybe there's some other solutions to that. Or if it's just for the kids, like, I never met kids who were like, I'm so glad my parents hung in there till I turned 18. That's really not gonna happen either. So I see a lot of people that just delay grief. Like, I don't wanna be sad and that would be sad, so we're gonna stay together for now. But they're not happy. So if you're not actively working on figuring out how to make the best relationship possible, then I'd say, it's okay to question. Like, why am I here? Why am I staying? And and what do I really want in life? And plenty of people are probably okay with having a mediocre relationship. And and if that's you, all the more power to you. But for people who really want a deeper relationship with somebody, then you need to actively be working on it. Otherwise, you're gonna end up, not getting your needs met either. Yeah. And then and then life's over. Right. Life is pretty short. But but at the same time, like, it's like it's like what people say. You know, whatever problems you have in one relationship, you're just gonna bring into the next relationship. So it and it's hard to know where your problems are and where the other person's problems are. And I think some of that is true. Yes. When you're in a relationship with somebody, you might then say, you know, I'm also struggling with the same issues in the next relationship, but I don't think that's always the case either. Certain people have the power to bring out different sides of us. Or maybe when you got together with your partner now, you're now 10 years wiser. And so even though you've developed these certain patterns, if you got into a relationship with somebody new, you might not have those same patterns. But, obviously, the place to start is to say, you know, if I were to change myself, what would I change? And you can always grow as an individual while you're still with your partner, as it Particularly if you do the 13 things mentally strong people don't do. Right. Right. If you don't do those things. And so, you know, if we looked at that, like, yeah, there's always room for improvement in any of us, but I'm gonna start with myself rather than being convinced that it's my partner who needs to change. That's a good advice to start with yourself. You mentioned though that and I found this to be true, basically, that couples therapy is a lot about just the couples want approval to divorce. Yeah. That was my I didn't realize that. Again, when I started as a therapist, I was like, okay. I'll see whoever walks in my office. And then the first couple that ever came in, and they were just they hated each other. And there was no doubt about the fact that they hated each other, and and they really weren't there to stay together. I think they just wanted to know that it was, like, we've done everything. Right? Like, there's nothing we can do. Right? And as they're both nodding their heads, and it was probably the only thing they agreed on. And they just wanted to, like, check it off their list. Yes. We have tried everything, including therapy, and there's no hope for us. So no use in saying that each other? Like a lot of couples, I think they they got together, and it was like this heated passionate relationship. And then when they fought, it was also heated and passionate, and they never worked through the issues. They just argued and yelled and screamed to the point that they weren't communicating unless they were yelling and screaming at each other. Well, definitely, you know, this was 13 things mentally strong couples don't do. This is a great book, but it was really, you know, almost more than a book that is about, like, individual self help. This one was more triggering triggering for me because it's, like, the other people you might have affected with your problems. So it's not just, like, about me improving. It's that it just reminded me of, like, all these unhealthy situations from my past. You know? And when you're when you're old enough, you have many unhealthy situations in your past. And so it just I was thinking of a lot of things while I read this book and all, you know, we only briefly touched on all the stories you mentioned and all the advice you give and so on. Like, we just hit the chapter titles, but there's there's a lot of deep stuff in here that made me think. Thank you. I'm I'm glad. And, again, I come by these lists honestly. They're all mistakes I've made and things I continue to to struggle, but also things I've learned along the way. Like, alright. There's hope. And then if Yeah. Because you've advised a lot of couples. Like, you're a couples therapist, so you've seen these patterns. Right. And I've seen plenty of people who came in by themselves where they said, you know, my partner won't come in with me. And some of the stories in the book, I never actually met the partner. I only met the person who came into my office, and we still made huge changes. So I wanted people to know, like, even if your partner says no, I'm not I'm never going to couples therapy. You can go by yourself and make some pretty big changes too. Do you ever see the TV show Entourage? No. Because there's a a couples there's quite a few couples therapy scenes in there. I'm just curious, like, what couples therapy scenes in movies or TV you felt were good couples therapists, you know, being led by good couples therapists? Well, you know, that's an interesting question. Like, I just there was a TV show built, or reality show filmed in the town that I live in in Marathon, Florida recently, and they had a it was like a 90 day fiance, one of those spin offs. Oh, yeah. And so and, they had these different couples' therapists working with all of these couples in a group therapy setting. And I was, like, screaming at the TV because it was so not realistic of what couples therapy was, where they were, like, doing group therapy with these couples that had completely different problems, and everybody was drinking, and they were doing all of these things that would never ever actually happen in a couple's therapist office. So I knew that that was a terrible example and bad representation of it. But in terms I don't know if I know any, like and I don't watch a ton of TV or movies, but what I would say is a example of a good couple's therapist. It's accurate. Most of the shows about therapy in general are really inaccurate the way that they portray it on TV. Well, you have so many, like, potential follow-up articles. Like, I'm envious of, like, you have such a wealth of material in here. Like, it's but it's the beginnings of, like, a lot of depth that you could then explore in different articles. So you're gonna be able to market this for years, this book. Well, good. You've given me hope. Thank you. Yeah. What's, what's the next what's the next one you wanna do? Uh-uh. That's a good question too. We've been talking about doing something with business and leadership because my speakers bureau wants something that has to do with business, but I don't know. I don't know yet what the next one is. And I'm in a great place because usually my readers tell me when they read the first book, they're like, what about kids? So I wrote the parenting book. And then all these women were like, what about women? And so sometimes my readers tell me. A a financial one, I think, is very good because, you know, financial and and health are you know, if you think about it, love, financial, and health are the 3 most important things. Because there's a a phrase in marketing that you wanna, you wanna good products to market are ones that help people get paid, get laid, lose weight. So so it's basically, you know, financial, relationships, health. And, financial one I can see because there was because I was very unhealthy financially and and did all the things that mentally strong people shouldn't do. And I could only recover financially when I started doing important, you know, things for my fine you know, I had to be mentally strong about my finances. So I I feel I feel like that's an important one. I think so too. I think that could be a a helpful one for people because money is certainly an issue people talk about in therapy all the time as well. Yeah. Because it's such an emotional issue, money. Money is just it's like a replacement for emotions in many cases. Right. You know? And, also, I wanna thank you, Amy, because I I didn't mention this earlier, but I was having a chess lesson, like, 6 months ago. And my chess coach and I called you in the lesson to try to figure out, like, how I wasn't being mentally strong with how I either I was learning or competing or whatever. And you spent a good amount of time, and then you wrote the 13 things, you know, or the 10 things, actually, I should do and think about in in competition and and when I was learning and and trying to to study this thing that that's been, you know, that I'm getting back to as I'm as I'm older. And I really appreciate the the time you spent on that. You're very welcome. Well, I have been thrilled to be able to follow your journey a little bit as you're trying to conquer your chess game, as you grow older. I'm trying to run faster as I get older and to figure out where that tipping point is when I'm too old to keep running faster. And so I've appreciated your journey in figuring out, like, at what point did you come to the place of acceptance versus when you keep saying, no. It's possible. Well, I wonder too. I haven't that that point has to happen at some point, I guess. And because, like, some things age I don't know. There's a lot of particularly because, like, chess is mental. Running is physical. Although, arguably, there's a little bit of mental in running, and there's a little bit of physical in chess. Like, you need stamina and and so on. And, so you wonder some people say, oh, age shouldn't play a factor at all. And you see people who are 90 years old who run a marathon, and you see people who are 80 years old who play chess very well. And so if there's there's all sorts of things you have to learn. And then, basically, what I've kinda concluded is I have to be a better person in every aspect of my life to be a better person at one aspect of my life. Interesting. If that makes sense. Yeah. So, and and and, you know, why are you trying to run as fast as possible as opposed to just running? I think it started like I don't know. I was, like, in my late thirties, and I was like, I wonder how fast I can run a mile. And then I was like, I wonder if I could run it faster than I could when I was, like, 14, and I did. And then I thought, so it just kind of happened. Like, I wonder if I could shave 15 seconds off. What if I could shave another 15 seconds off? And then I thought, well, might as well see exactly how fast I can run. How fast can how fast can you run a mile? Like, 6:13 ish. Of course, 13 is my lucky number. So you're not going for a 4 minute mile? I'm not. I was just gonna be happy with 6, which when I was a kid, it was, like, 7:10 or something. And so I thought, alright. If I could shave and I don't have a coach or anything, and I don't want one. I'm just kind of seeing, like, on my own. Like, I feel like I could probably shave 13 seconds off if I had somebody who told me my form was terrible and but, like, it's fun for me. And I'm afraid if I hire a coach and did it, like, super seriously, some of the fun might be gone. So I'm just doing it. Well, okay. That's a very interesting point too. Like, maybe being relaxed about it helps you. So so how long how long has it been since you hit 613 and you haven't been able to go past 613? So it was probably a year ago when I hit 613. A year ago. So a year is a fairly long time to plateau because you're not only trying to go past the plateau. You're you're you're running a race against age. Right. Because at some point, 613 probably does get harder, though. In another 10 years, 60 613 might be harder than it is now. Right. That's just a guess. So if you did get a coach, they would instantly identify what parts of your form are off. And then, like, a week later, you might hit, you know, 559. It's true. That may be the case. And for some reason, like, I don't wanna do it. It's like when I was a little kid, I loved running. So when I was like we have video of, I think, I was probably 5, and I do a lap around the house and make my mom time me. And then, like, here I am at my age still doing the exact same thing. Right? Basically, timing myself to run a mile. And I and I love it, and I don't wanna lose the love of it. And maybe I'm being ridiculous by thinking that a coach would make me take the fun out of it. But I mean, if you if you think it, it's probably true. So, you know, it's the the whole thing about arguing for your limitations. If you don't wanna have a coach, then don't don't have a coach. But I have a one intermediate, like, one intermediate thing you can do, like, in between what you're doing now and a coach is do you videotape yourself in the run? Nope. So maybe you could video yourself running and watch it, and then you could see where you feel like your form is off. Okay. Yeah. You're right. That's probably a middle step. And that might be fun. Would you think that's not fun too because it's taking it too seriously? It might I don't know. Like, it I could be interesting. I'm afraid it's, like, painful. Like, you know how it's kind of I find it painful to listen back to my podcast. Like, I think it would be painful to watch myself run. But Like, in in con when I was doing stand up comedy, I didn't have a coach, but I would videotape all my comedy sets and watch them later to see, oh, I said too much, or I I moved I was moving around the stage in a weird way. I should be more consistent how I'm moving around the stage or or more planned how I'm doing it. So so you might see, like, just basic things in your form that you could change, and then you don't need a coach like that. And then you could just get 559 and and and write the book, you know, or whatever things you wanna do. And, you know, it's ridiculous. Like, you knew I got 6 pack abs in 30 days, and, like, I had a coach. Yeah. That wasn't I've been running a trying to run a timed mile. It's been years. Right? Like, I've literally done it a 1000 times, and, like, I haven't made any progress in yet with a coach. Racing is similar to my chess in the sense that and here's where it's similar. You're better than you were at 14, but somehow you haven't achieved this level where you feel satisfied with it. Right. Exactly. And you think that 6 minutes will do it, and maybe it will. Like, it's it's it's not the case that, you know, it it really just might do it. Like, you might be happy with 5:59 and say, that's it. Right. I'm done. Like, I achieved that with comedy. Like, I got to a point where I was happy and, like, I was done. But, but, yeah, but it's interesting what you're willing to do and not willing to do with it. Like, the coach takes the fun of it. But that's why the only thing I can think is, well, a, watching YouTube videos, which is like a a virtual coach. Right. My guess is you've done that. And have you asked like, you and I had the same personal trainer, and you got 6 pack ads, Robert, Briggs. Right? So did you have you asked him? I haven't, actually. I haven't at all. Like, he used to have me run as part of my my training, but it was just more about, can you keep up with the speed on a treadmill? Like, sure. But I mean, I'm sure he would have advice about it, but you don't even and you talk to him. So should probably ask him. But there's a reason why you have it. Right. Right. It's and it's like, I'm a therapist, and it's supposed to know why I do certain things. But something about it, like, it's almost a joke on social media every day. I post, like, gonna try again for the billionth time. I didn't do it. And and I'm okay with not doing it, yet at the same time, I'm like, I get I get to do something tomorrow. I get to try again. Maybe because when you hire a coach, it makes the commitment more real. Maybe. Like, that that now you once you hire a coach, now it's possible for you to fail. Right. And that and that I wonder if that's it. Like, I'm not afraid of of, like, doing it, but I'm afraid of, like, what if I really tried my hardest even with a coach and then I found out I couldn't do it? Maybe that's what I'm afraid of. Yeah. Because then you disappoint not only yourself, but the coach. Right. And you don't wanna disappoint another person with your issue. Right. And and but that's why I'm saying, so maybe it might be okay to videotape yourself. Yes. That there is that discomfort of watching yourself, you know, on camera, which nobody likes to do. But but but but then at least you're not bringing another person. You're not bringing an accountability partner that's gonna be disappointed if if you don't succeed. And it would be interesting now as an experiment to see if at least so it's been a year since you hit 613. It'd be interesting now as an experiment to see what things you can add to your routine that will get you to 6:12 Right. At the very least. Because now you've plateaued for a year. There's 2 issues. 1 is achieving the goal of less than 6 minutes. The other is breaking free of your plateau. Right. Because that's an annoying thing. Like, oh, you always wanna see improvement. So so it might be, and I'm sure you've I mean, I know how much you you take seriously diet and exercise and so on. I couldn't get the 6 pack and 3. I was with the same personal trainer, and I couldn't do what you did. And, so so so maybe, though, I mean, the only thing I think could that you can add is this videotaping your your, your run because you again, you probably have done all the diet things, the sleep things, the exercise things. You're probably in great shape to do it. Do you know other women your age who can run faster than a 6 minute mile? I don't. So you haven't joined, like, any kind of Facebook groups about running or things like that? Nope. So that's really interesting because you're you're obviously really interested in it. Right. And this is like, I would definitely have tried to figure out anything to, a, get past the plateau, and, b, get the goal, I would have done anything. I know. It's a strange won't. It's a strange thing. Right? And, like, normally, in anything else in my life, like, I would study it. I would read it. I would do it. But there's something about this. Like and I don't know if it's like a, like, I just wanna do it on my own or, again, like, it's fun. Like, I thoroughly enjoy it, but I guess, like Do you get something out of not succeeding? Maybe. Maybe I just enjoy it. Like, you know, I don't wanna crush every goal because then I'd have nothing to look forward to. So perhaps I'm like, I'll get something to do tomorrow. I don't know. Yeah. Like, are you afraid you'll stop running if you hit past 6 minutes? Maybe. Like, in every day, I'm like, today's the day, and I'm always like it's like a joke with everybody who sees me running too. But, like and, again, I find it fun, and I'm not upset when I don't hit the goal. I'm just like, today wasn't today. Maybe tomorrow. But See, the fact that you're not upset when you don't hit the goal does tell me it's not about the goal. So because you would be upset if you didn't hit the goal. Right. Like, you should be. Right. Otherwise, you're not it doesn't you don't care that much. Right. And so it's a strange it's a strange thing because, again, in every other area of my life, like, if I'm decide I wanna do something and do it really, really well, like, I'll put in all the effort to get there. And this one, I'm like, oh, I'm trying really hard and doing it every day, but I don't know. I just like the running, and I think it's fun. And maybe it's just the challenge and the joy of attempting it, knowing it probably isn't gonna happen today deep down. But And enjoying the the self segregating social media posts and the community around that that you probably get. You know, you probably enjoy that a lot. Yeah. And maybe it's something, like, just really easy to fail at too. Like, if I know Yeah. Right. You know? Like, your your your your your the way you think of yourself doesn't change Right. If you fail every day. Like, you don't say, oh, I'm the unhealthiest person in the world because you you don't think that because you know you're incredibly healthy anyway. So, and society is not valuing you differently if you go from 6 minutes and 13 seconds to under 6 minutes. Right. So it's interesting. I did. It's strange, and people will always be like, Amy, why don't you, you know, get a fitness watch and do this? And people a lot of people some guy in a walker last week was offering me advice as I, like, ran past him, but, like so I get a lot of unsolicited advice too, and people are, like, really cheering me on, which is cool. But Yeah. No. I I think, well, this makes me think do you think you'll write a book at some point? Oh, you're a great writer, so you think you'd write a book at some point about something other than 13 things mentally strong x don't do. Yeah. I do. I don't think this will be like the chicken soup for the soul with 8,000,000 books in this series. I do think one of these days, hopefully, I'll reach out and have a a different book too. Yeah. Maybe I can I can see runner's high and your your what you get from running? Well, you know, then that reminds me of, Haruk, Haruki Murakami's book, what I think about what I think about when I think about running. Do you know that book? Uh-uh. So he's a great, you know, Japanese novelist. He's he's written 20 or so novels. He's he's probably a front runner for the Nobel Prize in literature every day. Like, he's currently Japan's most respected and revered novelist. I probably read everything he writes. And but he also early on in his career, he was a translator, for Raymond Carver, who was a a famous short story writer in the US who his most well known story is what we talk about when we talk about love. And so Murakami wrote a book, something like what what I think about or what I talk about when I talk about running. And so I play off on that. And it was kind of his autobiography in a weird way, but he's also an obsessive runner and writer. And so it was it was, he talks a lot about running in in that book, and I don't know. I was just curious if you had if you had read that. But but that's essentially his version of what you're going through right now Interesting. And how it interweaves with how running interwove with all the changes in his career and his life and so on. So and and what he got out of it. And and so it'd be interesting to explore, like, what you're getting out of it, and what your what your true goals are here. Because you you always have I always notice with you. You you do have something that you're going for, but it just might be unclear what you're going for here. Right. Right. Yeah. And I don't know. It's a strange one, but I don't have the I don't have all the answers for this one for sure. Yeah. That's good. It's good not to have all the answers. There is that too. And be being okay with it. Like, I don't have all the answers to some things in my life, and I'm not okay with it. Right. But which is why I brought you on to that, that that chess one. By the way, this is we're we're still in the podcast, but Avatik wants to know if you wanna go on his podcast. So I'll I'll reintroduce you guys. Yes. Thank you. I would love to be on his show. Yeah. And, good luck again marketing this one. I really think this is this is a a I mean, all your books are great. This one really touched me, the 13 things mentally strong couples don't do, just as much as 13 things mentally strong people don't do. And, again, all your books are great, but I think these for me, personally, these these had the most effect because 13 things mentally strong kids don't do, I don't really I don't care as much. Right. I'm not a kid anymore. I think about my kids, but they're on their own now. So they gotta they gotta find these things for themselves. So, but thank you. Amy, you've been on the podcast, like, 10 times, I feel. We've even talked about how to start a jewelry business on the side. So so I always appreciate you you being around and and and being on the podcast and consider you a good friend, and and I look forward to to the next time we get together. Me too. Thank you, James. Thank you. Employees unlock up to ?1,000 tax free with a new OptionsCard digital gift card. With OptionsCard, there's no fees and no fuss. Your full balance is yours for up to 5 years. Shop your favorite brands and see your balance at all times in your mobile wallet. It's simple to buy and simple to use. Send instantly by email. No admin registration of forms required. You can even regift and share your options card with family and friends. Buy now at options card dotau. The nation's favorite car buying site, Dundee Motors, is home to the largest range of new and premium used cars from all of Ireland's trusted car dealerships. That's why you'll find Spirit Volvo on Dundee. Visit the Spirit Volvo showroom on Dundee to find your next car. 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