Transcript
This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is The James Altiger Show. Today on The James Altiger Show. I just wanted to chase happiness. I just wanted to chase happiness. And I was so depressed, you know, and I was in therapy, like, why am I depressed? Like, I have this career that so many people envy. I'm working with big stars and being paid a lot of money and I'm in a happy marriage or so I thought. And, like, why am I just massively depressed all the time? And it took me a couple years of therapy to get there, but I realized I wasn't in a happy marriage. I was just sort of fooling myself. We're both sort of fooling ourselves, and I actually hated my career. The thing my passion was was fantasy football of all things, which in 2005, who thought you could make a career of? And how did you know, like, you said before, you were interested in Bruce Springsteen, you were interested in, you know, pizza, You're interested in other things. How did you know fantasy sports would be the thing? It's just that was my passion. And I also thought that there was an opportunity there. What would you say to let's say someone's listening to this, and they're a paralegal at at Procter and Gamble, and they're thinking, you know what? I was just furloughed, or I might be furloughed, or I might be fired, and things are accelerated now. I've gotta kinda figure out what to do next. Not that there's a solid process, but what are maybe some ways to think about it in order to determine what they love and what the next steps might be? Yeah. How long how James, how how long do you think? An hour. Okay. Last time I had you on, 3 hours. Almost something crazy. Yeah. We woke up crazy. Joke just to see how long it could go. You were very polite. You you did not you did not get off the that was in 2014. You realize that was 6 years ago. Oh my god. How long have we known each other? We've known each other a long time. Yeah. 6 years. Because then we had lunch, I think, around 2016, and we talked about business ideas. Yeah. And I really appreciate you you coming on. I was I've been thinking about you a lot during this period, actually, because and in 6 years, I've interviewed, you know, about 600 people now. And, you know, from all walks of life, every type of peak performer out there, and your story has really stuck with me, and I really think it's inspiring to people right now. So if if you don't mind, I hope we kind of cover a little ground that we covered 6 years ago and maybe go into some new stuff. Yeah. Whatever whatever you want, man. That, be great. So Matt Berry is the You've been very kind you've always been very kind about, me and my story and always so supportive and a good friend. So however I can help. Oh, great. I appreciate it. Thank you, Matt. And and and just so the audience knows, I have Matt Berry, maybe the 1st ESPN anchor ever to cover fantasy sports. That's I'm assuming that's correct? Not the 1st anchor. I wouldn't call myself an anchor, but, I'm the most prominent. How about that? I'm I'm the most prominent, and and, I think I think I get the most credit for for people that are wishing to give me some credit, is is helping, popularize and mainstream fantasy football. I certainly didn't invite the game, but, I'm sort of the the pied piper, if you will, the the lead cheerleader. I'm I'm often credited with, you know, being one of the one of the leaders of, of of bringing it mainstream and and and making it, as popular it is today. So, I don't know how much credit I can take for that, but that's often what I'm giving a lot of credit for. I'll give you a lot of credit for it. And and you also host the fantasy show on ESPN, which is popular benefits a lot from your prior experience, which we're gonna get into. Your your original job in Hollywood was, writing for or working for the the George Carlin show. So I'm sure you got a lot of, experience there and and had the qualifications to write for such a genius like George Carlin. And along the way, you're writing Hollywood movies, TV shows, and then suddenly, boom, there was a a a split in your brain. Like, you couldn't take Hollywood anymore, which many would consider the dream job. And you kind of went down to bare bones, started from scratch, started writing fantasy sports blog posts for a $100 a post, which was pathetic, but I I get it. I used to write posts for nothing. If you love what you're doing, you'll do it for for free. And then, gradually, you you once again became a success in another field. And I think it's very interesting for people to see that you can switch careers, and this was you kinda switched during a recessionary time or just coming out of a recession. You can switch careers during during a bad period in the economy, lose everything, not that you necessarily did, and and rise to the top of a whole new field. And I I just wanna ask you all about that. I appreciate that, and happy to get into it. Happy to answer whatever questions you may have. So, I'll correct go ahead. What do you got? Oh, yeah. No. Correct me. Correct me. And then I'll I'll I'll tell you one anecdote. Okay. So, so I graduated from Syracuse University in 1992. I moved out to Hollywood to to pursue a dream of being a Hollywood sitcom and movie and TV writer. I got a job working as a production assistant, as a PA, which is basically, it's a gopher. It's like the lowest guy in the rung for the George Carlin show. So I was I was this the the production assistant, the PA, stage 17 on the Warner Brothers lot in Burbank, California for the George Carlin show, which meant if I was on the stage, I was with the actors. And in essence, I sorta got adopted by George to sort of be his guy. He's the star of the show. So he was always my number one priority. And so I was basically George Carlin's assistant for a year. So, I would love to say that I I wrote jokes for him, but I did not. No one ever like, though? Like like, what did you learn from him in terms of, you know he's so he's so smart. And I feel like comedians are kind of the philosophers of today's day and age. And, by the way, I always appreciate on the fantasy show, you're you're you you bring your humor in there. You you're very self deprecating. But what what do you think you learned from Karl? There's a couple of things I learned from I learned I mean, I learned a ton. I'll tell you two quick stories. In terms of, mostly, what I learned I shouldn't say mostly, but one of the big things I learned from George was, honestly, was how to how to behave and and treat people, which sounds insane. But, I'll give you a first off, George on stay. George was completely the opposite on, on stage as he was in real life. In real life, he was sweet. He was mild, mild mannered, couldn't be kinder, or of a more gentle person. You know, you always sort of think about, you know, the the angry guy on stage and, you know, and, you know, the brilliance of his comedy. But offstage, he was the complete opposite. He was always the fur and you have to understand at that time in Hollywood, that was the era. And so that was that was 1990 3, I wanna say. 1993, 1994, somewhere in that range. And in that that era of Hollywood, that was Roseanne, that was Grace Under Fire with with, with, oh, what's what's the comedian's name? Brett Butler. And, you know, there were a lot of stories around sitcoms there. Simple Shepherd, there were a lot of rumors about her and that show. And and just, basically, there were stars of shows that were very angry and and mean to their staff and cruel, and people got fired all the time. And it was kind of this revolving door. And so George was it was very important to George that he may not be thought of like any of those people. Those are all rumors. I can't substantiate any of them. But they're all sort of well documented. Other people written about them. And, so he was always the first guy on set, last guy to leave, knew everyone's name, etcetera, etcetera. So I was his assistant, and I'd been there probably about 2 months. And my best friend from high school was coming out to visit. It was gonna be, like, sort of the first person I had, coming to, visit me in Hollywood. And so I just mentioned to George, you know, we were taping a show that night, and I said, hey, George. There was usually a bunch of errands he had me do after the show. I went to him and I said, listen. Hey, George. I have a friend from high school tonight coming coming to the show, and I was gonna show him around after the show. Would you mind would it be okay with you if whatever you need me to do after the show, I took care of before the show. I could just take care of it now so that I can, you know, be free after the show to to show my friend around. He's like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just need you to do this, this, this, and that's I said, great. Thanks. So I take care of it. After the show, I'm walking my friends around and showing them, you know, here's here's where the grip sits, and here's, you know, here's what cameras look like and etcetera, and all that stuff that you see on a on a TV set, which they never been to before. And all of a sudden, George walks up. He says, Matthew, are these your friends? I yes. Sean and Cindy. George Carlin. George Carlin. Sean and Cindy. And George goes into the big cell. Goes into the big cell. He says, like, I have to tell you, Matthew's gonna be a big star. He's a great kid. He works his tail off. I consult with him every day. We couldn't do the show without him. He's such an important cog of what we do around here. Understand, like, I get coffee. You know what I mean? I get lunch. I Xerox scripts. This is back in the day when you had a Xerox thing. Like, I Xerox scripts. Like, I I run errands. I pick up his laundry for him. Like like, I'm the lowest runt to the runt, but George has given my friends the big sell. You know? And their eyes are growing wide, and he's got a couple of signed scripts of the show that night. He's like, hey. Here, take this. And come on. Let's do a photo. Let's do a photo. You know? And so and how are you guys? Where are you from? And, you know, spends a couple of minutes with them. Right? So it's amazing. So, anyway, they walk off, and they're they're all impressed with me now. And, you know, they're floating on air. And the next day, I talk I'm like, George, oh my god. That was that was amazing. Thank you so much. And he's like, listen. He's like, first off, he's like, you're a good kid. You work hard. I'm happy to do it. He goes, but more importantly, if you ever need someone to do that, if you ever need me to say hi to somebody, please bring them to me. If anyone ever comes visits the set, bring them to me. And I'd always known that, like, any we always got all these requests for charity items and things for me signed and pictures, and he always did them. But he he he never explained his philosophy till that day. He said, listen. He said for the rest he said, you know, I'm happy to do it because, again, you're you're a nice kid. You work hard. I'm happy to have you here. He says, but here's the thing. Your friends now, for the rest of their lives, the next time my name comes up in conversation, the next time my name comes in conversation, they say, oh, I met Carlin once. He was a good guy. I really liked him. He said, as opposed to, I met Carlin once. Wouldn't even sign my comedy album, whatever. Getting back in the days when they had albums. And he goes, he goes, so you tell me I just traded 2 minutes of my life for a lifetime fan. I'll make that trade every day. You know what's so interesting about that, and it's such a great story, is that there's the thing you do that makes you known. So for Carlin, it was, you know, stand up ever since the the sixties and and how he was, you know, became one of the first comedians to really be brutally honest as opposed to just doing the classic Bob Hope premise, you know, punchline, and so on. So that kinda made him who he was, but he has this awareness that people aren't gonna remember or retell jokes from the sixties. People are gonna remember what he does and how he makes them feel, which is the kind of classic line, but it's it's really true. That's where he sets his legacy. It is. And and so, I mean, obviously, I'm not, you know, I'm, you know, 1 1 millionth as famous as George Carlin or whatever, but I have a, you know, I have a little bit of notoriety for people that play Fantasy Football or watch ESPN, and, you know, I get recognized a decent amount when I go out in public. Yeah. When we when we when we went out for lunch a few years ago, everybody was stopping on the street. Oh, thank you for your fantasy picks the day before. Like, you you were known by everyone. And the restaurant people were coming up to you and shaking your hand. I I'm I'm I'm pretty well known to a very specific group of people, which is, you know, people that play fantasy football or or at least watch ESPN and and notice me. And, and so you know, and I have a I have a semi distinctive look, thanks to my, you know, receding hairline. And so you know, anyway, but the point is is that I try to and there are times where I haven't been, you know, as gracious I would have liked, you know, because I'm I'm meeting with my kids and my you know, one of my one of my kids is fighting with the other, whatever. It's just a bad moment. You know, standing in an airport, you know, waiting for a flight, you know, a delayed flight. Kids are going crazy. But generally, but I'm always I always take the picture. I always talk about their team for a second, and I try to always this this is one of the part I was gonna say. I don't want anyone to think that, like, I'm ever a jerk. I'm not. But, I always try to go above and beyond. Thanks to George. What they come up to me and they they, you know, they want let's take a let's take a picture. Let's do a selfie. Let me tell me about your team. Let's go through the trade that you wanna talk about. You need me to do a trash talk video for your league. I'm happy to do it. Let's you know, so I always try to kinda go above and beyond when when anyone, you know, approaches me in a in a nice and respectful way, you know, because that's that's what I learned from George. The other thing that I learned from George, in terms of writing comedy, was the fact that context is so important. Right? And so he does a routine about this, but he sort of brought talked me through the routine. And I would sometimes you know, sitcoms, especially, are sort of set up jokes set up joke. Right? And so George would, again, I never wrote anything. George always wrote for himself, which is what I think he struggled with the sitcom format. It only ran for 2 years because he wasn't used to having people write for him. He always wrote his own stuff. And and so I worked crazy hours on that sitcom because what would happen is is the writers would write their scripts, and I would take them to George. I would drive them to George. This is, again, this is 2004 or 5. So email wasn't really prominent right then, and George wasn't the most, you know, technically savvy guy. So I would basically take the printed script, drive it to his house, and wait while he would mark it up with notes. And then then I would drive it back to the writers. Right? And he would always rewrite stuff in his own voice. And so and and one of the things I learned was how important context is in comedy. Right? So many people think that, that comedy writing is, you know, set up jokes, set up joke. And the best example I can give it is not a George Carlin example, although I will give one George Carlin example. But I wrote on Married With Children. And, you know, you think about, HIPPEG. Right? Just that phrase, HIPPEG, h I, comma, p e g, period. HIPPEG. You see HIPPEG on a screen and that doesn't make you laugh. I say Hi Peg, that doesn't make you laugh. That's not funny at all. But Al Bundy walking through the door, putting taking his coat off, turning around, seeing his wife, sitting on the couch, eating bonbons, watching TV. He sighs, you know, with that amazing depressed sigh look that Ed O'Neil had. Sighs and goes, hi, Peg. And we get a laugh every time. Because the context you understand, you know, the the the torture of of Al Bundy in that moment. You know, George used to be obsessed with language, and he has he has very famous routines about this, all based off of the 7 dirty words, routine. And, you know, he used to talk about the fact that he thought it was insane that the 7 words that he came up with for this this comedy routine, 7 dirty words you can't say on television, is the definition of profanity in US law books. Because there was a there was a, you know, there was a, there was a there was a Supreme Court case. I think it was WBAI versus the FCC. WBAI. I think it's WBAI. So I could be wrong on that. But, because there was this radio station in in Long Island that played the routine and got sued, and there's a whole thing. And so George's take was that war words mean whatever you want them to mean. That they're just words. Right? It's all about the context behind them. It's just like, yeah, you think this is dirty. You think that's dirty. I can make anything dirty. What'd you do last night? I was walking the dog. You know? I mean, the way if he's just it's all about inflection. It's all about context. Oh, yeah. Oh, my, yeah. He just you know, my my wife came over last night and, you know, we had to mow the yard. Right? I mean, like and so, you know, he that was his point. Like, that mow the yard is perfectly innocent until you put it into some context and and use, use inflection. And so that was an important lesson that I learned, and then I saw again on on Married with Children, which was a very set up jokey show, but so much context. You know? My favorite Married With Children joke of all time, and I didn't write it, is Christina Applegate. Her Kelly Bundy. Kelly Bundy walks in the front door. Her hair is askew. Her blouse has a couple of buttons undone. Her miss or or, you know, her lipstick's smeared. Right? It looks like she's clearly done something. So Kelly Bundy walks into the door. You take a look at her like that, and she goes, well, I passed math. You know? And, like, it's just such a, you know, it's just a such a simple, easy joke, but just Christina's brilliant and, you know, again, all context. Right? I passed math isn't funny at all on its own, but delivered by Kelly Bundy looking like she just, you know, she just went 2 rounds, you know, got a huge laugh. Huge laugh. It's so interesting because around the same time George Carlin was kind of transforming his act, Richard Pryor was as well, going from kind of a Bill Cosby style to just talking about growing up in a w***ehouse and and, you know, how he grew up and what happened to him. So and and it reminds me much later of more recently of, Sebastian Maniscalco who isn't necessarily set a punch line, but just his whole way of being is funny when he gets into that Italian Italian American persona. Yep. And so a lot of people, I think, ignore that, you know, even even stand up comedians. Have you ever thought about doing stand up comedy? I have. I I own a comedy club, you know. I I recently bought a comedy club. Oh, congratulations. Where is where is this comedy club located? 78th in Broadway, Stand Up New York. Stand Up New oh, I didn't know you owned that. Oh, interesting. That's so funny. I have thought about doing stand up. I have actually done stand up in my life before. I, so I randomly this is a story I've literally never told. But I so A first for the podcast. There you go. When I was in Syracuse when I was in Syracuse, Doritos of all things, Doritos decided to hold a contest called the funniest student in America. And they they went to, like, a 100 colleges. And they had these local competitions. And so I enter a local student stand up competitions. And so I entered for Syracuse. And then I ended up winning Syracuse. So I was named the, whatever, the funniest student comedian in at Syracuse, whatever, you know, for that year. I think it was 1990. And I, and I ended up making it to, like, the semifinals of the national competition, before I lost. But, but as a result then, a a little while later, Dennis Miller, who at the time was the weekend update host on Saturday Night Live and a very popular stand up comedian, was coming to Syracuse to do a stand up comedy, concert. And so the people that were organizing the the organization that was organizing that came to me and said, would you like to he didn't have an opening act. And he just said, yeah. Just grab somebody local. And they're like, well, it's, you know, he's coming in, you know, as a student. He's coming in to perform for the students with student fee money, so we should have a student open for him. And since I had just been named the funniest student at Syracuse by Doritos, they wanna know if I would like to open for Dennis Miller. So, like, my 3rd stand up gig ever, I think, was opening up for Dennis Miller in front of 1100 people. That's great. By the way, Dennis Miller could not have been kinder to me. And this was really interesting about Dennis. So, so I do my little routine, and I come off. And then there's, you know, there's an emcee that's sort of talking up talking him up. And so I'm backstage with Dennis there for a couple of minutes. And he says, he says, hey. Nice job out there. And I said, do you really mean it? He goes, yeah. He goes, listen. You know, he, he says he said, yeah. Actually, you actually have some very funny premises and some some interesting thoughts there. And then after he says, hang around after the show. And so after the show, we went out to dinner. It was, like, me and and Dennis Miller and, like, his manager who had come to the show, or agent or somebody somebody was with him and, like, a couple of the students that had organized the event. And so it's, like, 6 or 7 of us, and we grab a a late dinner and some drinks. And, during that dinner, I asked Dennis, like, if I wanted to try to make a recurve of this, what could I do? And what was interesting is is Dennis says he goes, let me ask you this. He goes, how important is is it for you to get the laugh? And I go, what do you mean? And he goes he goes, as a performer, you're not great. He goes, but your writing is really strong. He says, I thought your jokes were really well written and really smart. And, like, he's like, could you ever write for a show like Saturday Night Live where you write the joke, but you hand it off to somebody like me who gets the laugh? And I said, I don't know. I don't hey. He goes, it's an ego question. He goes in it. He goes, there's no wrong answer. He goes, you know, just you have but you have to be honest with yourself because there's nothing worse than saying you don't wanna be a performer, but you really do. And then handing it off and seeing somebody else get the laugh, and you're sitting there all bitter. So, you know, just you have to be honest with yourself. He goes, but I think I think your writing is strong. Your performing needs work, which he was a 100% right about. And so it was really interesting that he sort of picked up on that. And, of course, I've made my career as a writer. And and the experience that I've had, being on television, you know, and and other mediums is entirely because of my success as a writer. And I've had to work very, very hard as a performer to get there. That's interesting. Writing's always come easy to me. But performing when I lived out in LA, I took classes at the groundlings for a couple of years. And, you know, I I, I don't know that I'm great, but I'm now passable. And, you know, it's I I worked hard at that. You know, it's it's interesting because it reminds me of this scene from the movie, from the TV show crashing on HBO about the comedian Pete Holmes. Mhmm. And he's trying out for this big club, the Comedy Cellar, and the Booker, Etsy, asked him these questions that he can't answer, which is who are you, why are you, why now? And she says everybody needs to answer that about she kind of implies everyone needs to answer that about their career. And he couldn't really answer. You know? And and it sounds like you were able to with with this prodding from Dennis Miller, you were able to answer. You know? You were Well, no. Guy. Not at that time. But that that's the point. And and that effect actually and, James, it's great that you bring that up because you're a 100% right. Think about what we were talking about in terms of context and and George Carlin. Right? George Carlin again, context. Because when George Carlin gets on stage, you know who he is. You know, that's built up. Same with Dennis Miller. Right? When Dennis Miller was doing comedy, that was, you know his persona. And in fact, my success didn't come until and so now I do I don't do necessarily stand up, but I'll do events where I'll do, like, I'll do pre season fantasy football events. I'll do you know, when I add my book, I would do book signings and that kind of stuff, and I'll talk to the crowd. And I, you know, I I have some prepared remarks that I'll do and also, you know, go off the cup and I'll do q and a. And I do live, you know, my podcast, we do live events with the podcast. So I do things that are close to stand up, but I've developed a character. Right? So I understand now a point of I have a point of view. People, when they read my column or listen to my podcast or watch my TV show, they sorta get my my persona, my character, however you wanna phrase it. But and so jokes are easier for me because they understand, you know, kind of what's important to me in my my my worldview, which at the time when I was, whatever, 20 year old kid talking to Dennis Miller, I didn't have it all. I didn't understand. Right. So so that's interesting. So we'll we'll we'll we'll I wanna get to those 3 questions again when we start to see your transition. But, so you went from George car the George Carlin show to writing for other sitcoms and then movies. Famously, the the worst movie of the year, Crocodile got Dundee goes to Los Angeles. What whatever year that was, it got the the Razzie award. No. We were we were screwed on the I wanted the Razzie. We lost we we were nominated for Razzie for worst sequel remake. It was Crocodiles on day 3 in Los Angeles. And my running partner and I got that gig because we'd been on a TV show, and it gotten canceled. And our agent called us up and said, you guys wanna get into movies. Right? And we were like, yeah. But, you know, we've never written a script. He's like, I don't worry about that right now. Like, oh, okay. And then he's like, he goes, you know, you know who Paul Hogan is? Of course. You ever seen Crocodile, indeed? Of course. Because, well, Paul Hogan's a client. He wants to do a 3rd installment of the franchise. Understand this is 16 years now after the original Crocodile Dundee. Maybe it's 14 years. I think it was 14 years. 14 years or something like that after the original Crocodile movie. Because Paul Hogan's a client who wants to do a 3rd installment franchise. He's meeting with writers to pitch him ideas of what that movie should be. I'm one of the agents in charge of putting writers in the room with him. Why don't you guys if you want, I'll put you on the list, and you can pitch Paul Hogan. He goes, listen. You're not gonna get the job, but it'll give you good practice. And I go, yeah. Great. Let's let's meet Paul Hogan. Be a good story. And so, so we went in and and we kinda half assed the pitch. And, you know, we just all we did was we watched the first two movies. It's the longest story than you want. But we we watched this is an important story, I think, in in terms of understanding some things. And so, again, going back to context, actually. This is actually really important, now that I think about it. We we watched we watched the first two movies. And if you watch the crocodile, the new movies and the first one's actually terrific. You know? And First one's great. First one's great. And, it's a little slow for these times a days, but it's very he's very charming, in that movie. And so, anyway but the the whole premise of the movie is this guy that's from the wilderness and the outback comes to New York and is sort of reacting to everything. Right? And, he doesn't drive any of the comedy. The the entirety of the comedy is something something normal happens, and then we see it through his eyes. He reacts. So most comedy stars are the ones that drive the action. They're doing the funny thing. They're making the funny joke. And his humor entirely comes from reacting and just and and sort of staying true to his character. But because that character is so well defined and stuff that we take for granted, like crossing the street or, you know, or traffic in New York. Right? You know, even a bathtub, because you see him early in the movie, like, you know you know, bathing in a in a lake, becomes humorous. And so so, anyway, we go in. We watch the first two movies. And the only rules that we've been told going in the movie was it has to be present day, and it has to include his his now his real life wife, Linda Kozlowski, who he had met on the first movie, who had played his love interest in the first two movies. So those were the only two rules we had. And so we go in and we go, well, listen. You've done New York. The the first two movies were about him leaving Australia and going to New York. And so listen. You've done New York. So tell you what, you and Linda, you're married. It's present day. You've got a little crock. You know, we thought, you know that was the other thing is we thought because at the time of the movie, what was popular right then was, like, there's something about Mary and all these kind of, like, really r rated comedies. And we're like, the only way this this movie is gentle comedy, and there's only way that the only way this movie has a chance in this present day is if it families go to it. Right? It's not it can't compete with the Something About Mary. His character just isn't built for that. Right. It sort of seems like you gotta aim for something like a a Crocodile Dundee meets vacation with Chevy Chase type of thing. Yeah. And not even probably even lower. Like, we were going for, like, this is something you can bring your kids to, you know, and, like, I remember this movie when I was growing up, and, you know, maybe my kids will enjoy it. And so so we go there and we literally just pitch. You know, we just say, like, listen. Here's the thing. He goes so it's present day. You're in Australia. You're married to, you're made to Linda. Sue, I think, is the name of the character. You're you're married to Sue. You guys have a little croc. She gets a job offer in LA. She was a newspaper reporter in the movies. And so you moved to LA. You moved to LA because the little one's never seen it in the States. You get a job at a movie studio because you can as an animal trainer because, you know, you can talk to the animals, which was one of his things. And, and turns out there's some bad guys there. I said, but the majority of the movie is you with your son walking around, LA and, you know, sort of the blind you're teaching America to the kid, but you don't understand America either. So it's the blind leading the blind. It's Beverly Hills Croc. And, you know, whatever. You know, you'll react to stuff in LA, you know, cell phones and things that you had never seen before in Australia. We'll make it funny. Like, literally, like, the pitch was a little bit more involved than that, but not much. And he goes to us. He goes, you guys are the only ones who get me. And we're like, wait. What? Wait. We're we're what? We're we got the job? You can't believe really? And, you know, what was important there, the context is we were the only ones. Apparently, everyone else had come in and either pitched him really dirty, raunchy comedies like There's Something About Mary, or they had pitched him, like, big action movie types, like, which is, like, you know, Crocodile Dundee saves the world from a nuclear explosion. And we were the only ones that went in and said, like, this is a gentle film. It's a gentle character who just reacts to stuff. So we just need to put him in funny situations for him to react to. That's interesting. Basically, by analyzing what made the comedy so special in the original movie, this concept of he's not driving the comedy. It's the context driving the comedy. And then there's a plot putting him in a new and unusual context. Boom, you get the job. And I think that analytical ability is important. Yeah. And it's just understanding why something's funny and and why it's in that. Mhmm. Not to not to, like because comedy is comedy. I don't really love talking about comedy and talking about, like, all the you know, breaking down comedy into some sort of science. But it's just it's merely about understanding character, I guess. It's character and context. And and so that's that's the only point there that I would make with that. Like, you know, the most famous joke from Crocodile Dundee, you know. But, like, so you see him early in the movie, because probably people haven't seen it. It's a very old movie. Very early in the movie, you see him, you know, killing crocodiles and using his knife in the in the Australian outback. And then at one point, they're walking in New York. You know, much later in the movie, they're just walking in New York. Him and Sue are walking in New York. And a guy, you know, pulls out a pocket knife and is just like, you know, give me all your money, and he's trying to rob them. And Sue gets all scared, but just Paul just looks at him and goes like, that's not a knife. And he pulls out this huge blade. This is a knife. That's a knife, you know. Like, you know, that's not a knife. That's a knife. And the guy gets all scared because Paul's got this crazy huge Crocodile Dundee killing knife. Crocodile killing knife that we didn't know he was carrying with him throughout New York. And so it gets a huge laugh and it's it's the most famous line. But again, you know, if you think about it on a piece of paper, that's not a knife. This is a knife. That's not funny. But seeing it with the character of him, and it's it's obviously very surprising, that he's carrying this huge knife. He doesn't understand that it's wrong to be carrying a huge knife like that. It's high stakes because it's a dangerous situation. Yeah. So all those things. And so, so anyway so all of a sudden then we get the offer to write CrocodileMD Los Angeles, and we're gonna co write it with Paul. And so we get a chance to, we're gonna use his movie quote. Here's another thing that people don't realize. Paul Hogan actually was nominated for an Academy Award for co writing the first Crocodile Dundee. He had he's an Academy Award nomination. I did not know that. So, anyway, it was just basically, it was one of those things where it's just like wait. They want us to write it and I'm I'm sorry. What? They're gonna pay us how much? I mean, you know, I mean, it was I I always say this. Listen. If you're gonna w***e out, w***e out big, kids. You know, don't sell out cheap. Sell out big. And so we sold out huge. I mean, they it you know, it I I made a lot of money off of that movie. Bought me my first house in LA. You know? So, you know, and and then it just it was never gonna be a good movie and then, you know, Paul made it worse and, because he just rewrote a bunch of our stuff and, anyway, we. So I really wanted a Razzie nomin I wanted us to win the Razzie for worst worst remake or sequel, but unfortunately, we lost out to the Mark Wahlberg Planet of the Apes. So that we ended up we were nominated, but we did not win the Razzie that year. Which, by the way, was one of the worst movies of all time. It's interesting because I'm gonna get back to these three questions. Who are you? Why are you? Why now? It sounds like maybe in the beginning of your Hollywood career, things kind of were clicking on those questions. But at this point, and you even used the phrase selling out, you were sort of losing track of why are you doing this? Why do you need to do this movie now? Like, what's it doing for you? Like, who it it's not it wasn't really satisfying your context. No. Listen. I was, you know, I was knee deep in in, therapy at the time and really depressed, and I didn't understand it. And so, you know, I was married, and, you know, my writing partner and I were, were successful writers in that. And, you know, it's it's hard to, you know, it's hard to break into Hollywood. It's hard to be, like Yeah. It's like the dream job for a 1000000000 people. Many people. And we were working writers. You know, like, we had never gotten on a you know, we did a year on Married with Children, and, we did the last year of Married with Children. You know, we did, whatever, Croc 3. But, like, the only movie we you know, we wrote we probably wrote 8 to 10 scripts that we got paid for, right, by studios. And the only movie that ever got made was the worst one we ever wrote, by far, which is Croc 3. And, you know, we wrote on a bunch of TV shows. We we wrote with a bunch of talented people and a bunch of big stars on a bunch of TV shows that just didn't hit. And so we just couldn't, you know, get there. And so it was just really but we were making good money. You know, we we were making, we made good money. So we were working, you know, sort of b level writers in Hollywood, and we could never break through. But, it was, you know, a really frustrating time for me. And so I was and I couldn't figure out why I was depressed. Like, we wanted to be we're on a better show or or, you know, have a hit movie or something like that. But either way, we just you know, I was just really depressed. And around this time so I've been playing fantasy sports since I was 14 years old. In 1999, there was a website called rotoworld.com, which still exists. And Roto World, Rotoworld at the time was, was advertising for fantasy writers. Now 1999, this is the days of dial up Internet and and, you know, you've got mail and, you know, that kind of thing. And and so, by the way, the I I think yeah. 90 so, yeah. So I, you know, I would you weren't really online that much, you know. That would be a a novel thing if you actually got a piece of email. And so I emailed them and I said, listen. I'm a professional writer living out here in Hollywood. Fantasy sports is my passion. I've been playing since I was 14 years old. Could I, you know, could I try out? Could I, you know, send you a sample? Because I just think it'd be fun to do a column on the side. And they wrote me back the next day, and they said, we looked you up on IMDB. Married with Children is our favorite show of all time. You're hired. So because the guy running the site at the time, a guy named Matthew Puleo, was a huge Married with Children fan, I got a chance to write a free column on the Internet at a time in which no one was on the Internet. But I was ecstatic. And so I wrote the column, and I wrote it for free. And, eventually, I think I got up to I think the most I ever got paid was a $100 a week for 2 columns a week. So I was getting $50 a column. Were were you were were you starting to amass fans? Were you getting a lot of emails? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I was their most popular writer. Yeah. I mean, you were definitely probably getting more personal satisfaction, like, more dopamine hits from this than arguing with Paul Hogan about Crocodile Dundee scripts. A 1000% because Hollywood is so much Hollywood is, it's a it can be a very lonely place. Like, you know, you're writing. You're writing off to, you know, yourself. Like, you know, you're a writer. Like, it's just it's it's you and the keyboard and, you know, in the dungeon. Right? And and so writing is a is a lonely exercise. And and so and then you're you know, and it's Hollywood's a lot of rejection too, and it's very subjective. And so here I was, you know, getting, emails and, yeah, people were fans. And they're also writing to me for advice. Right? Which is a compliment in of itself. You know? Yeah. Hey. I value your opinion. Please tell me what to do. I think you're an expert. Please, you know, give me advice. And so, that was exciting. And, you know, so I was loving that. And so that was part of it. Right? And so I realized that here I am making, you know, 6 figures a script, and I'm making $50 a column. And I care way more about the column than I do the scripts, which was a wake up call to me. And I I've told this story before, but, my writing partner and I were driving back from, a movie studio, and we just had a move a meeting with 2 movie stars about a script that we were writing for them. And they had and I I don't wanna say who it is. I'll tell you off air. But, anyway, this this movie star basically starts lecturing me and my writing partner about comedy. So it was one of the reasons why, again, I don't like to talk you know, analyze comedy, even though we did a lot of that at the beginning of this podcast. He starts lecturing me about comedy. I'm like, look, dude. And I don't say this to him. I think it. But I'm just thinking, like, look. You don't like the joke? Tell me you don't like the joke, and I'll beat it. I'll come up with 10 other jokes you can pick from. And if you don't like those 10, I'll come up with 10 more. Because you're the movie star. You're the one that has to sell this on the big screen. And if you don't think it's funny, if you don't think you can sell it, I got no issue with that. So but don't sit here and lecture me about comedy, man. I I I've been making a living as a comedy writer. You're producers. You approved me to be hired. It's I must have been funny enough at some point to have gotten to this point. Right? So I don't need a lecture on, you know, on comedy. And yet but he was. Like, he was so he was just he was lecturing me on comedy. Him and it this the other movie star for, like, 3 hours. But, you know, it basically notes on the movie, but just very lecturing. And we're driving back from the meeting, and I'm just, you know, I'm m m m m m this guy, and I'm like, oh, that was blah blah blah blah. And I just have this epiphany, James. I have this epiphany epiphany where I'm just like, wow. I'm complaining about a movie star giving me notes for the movie we're writing because he wants to make it. And, look, could he have delivered the notes in a better way? Sure. Of course. And, he could have been more constructive in how he delivered it. But, ultimately, a movie star is giving me notes on a script I've written because he wants to make it. Like, that's a high class problem in Hollywood. Right. And if that doesn't make me happy, then there's no helping me. Right? You know what I mean? It's just like, that's a that's a that's that was just a real, you know, kind of epiphany where I'm just like, I gotta get out. I gotta get out. And and, you know, my wife and I, we had met when I was 25 and she was 23. And at this point, I'm 35 and she's 33. And, along the way there, I had started I had left Roto World to start my own website called Talented Mr. Roto, which was my website. And so, you know, but I'm I'm doing stuff I'm doing jobs on the side and so it's a you know, I'm I'm telling sort of concurrent stories here. But in essence, basically, I was waking up in the morning and going to bed at night thinking entirely about my website that had maybe 2,000 kids on it at the most at that time, than I was about these movies that I was being paid a lot of money to write and that I had movie stars giving me notes for. And that was just sort of a wake up call. And along the way, my wife and I had just sort of grown apart and I don't you know, if your listeners can think about for your listeners that are, you know, 35 and older, think about the kind of person you were at 35 versus the kind of person you were at 25. And so my my wife and I just grew apart. I mean, like, we were just, you know, she was, you know, nothing bad. There's no third person. We never fought. We just we just grew apart. We were just so different that each of us at 35 than we were at or 35 and 33 than we were at 25 and 23 that we just sorta grew apart. So we we, we divorced amicably, but we split up. And around that time, I I was, you know, I realized that I had to I just wanted to chase happiness. I just wanted to chase happiness. And I was so depressed, you know, and I was like, I'm I was in therapy, like, why am I depressed? Like, I have this career that so many people envy. I'm working with big stars. I'm being paid a lot of money, and I'm in I'm in a happy marriage or so I thought. And, like, why am I just massively depressed all the time? And it took me couple years of therapy to get there, but I realized I wasn't in a happy marriage. I was just sort of fooling myself, and by the way, so was my ex wife. We're both sort of fooling ourselves. And I actually hated my career. The thing my passion was was was fantasy football, of all things, which in 2005, who thought you could make a career up? But so I went to my running partner and I said, listen. At the beginning of 2,005, I went to my running partner and I said, listen. Rachel and I are splitting up, and, I, you know, I'm, I wanna try to make a career of my website. I wanna try to make a career of of fantasy sports. So let's write one more movie together. Bank the money, I'm telling you, because I'm out after this. And I'll probably make $10,000 a year if I'm lucky. I mean, who can make a living at fake football? But I'm gonna I want it's the only thing that makes me happy. So I'm just gonna chase happiness, and I'll I'll figure out how to pay the bills later. You know? And I I had a nice little nest egg because of the success of writing movies. And so I did that. Did you start to think, like, how many years you could survive trying to do this? Or did you do any of that calculation? Or did you just say, I'm gonna take the plunge? I'm just gonna take the plunge. Now But you figured though, one more movie. One more movie. And, I mean, listen. Understand that at the time, Rachel and I this is my ex wife now. Rachel and I Rachel worked. I worked. We had no kids. So we both made nice living. She was an executive. She still is an executive to this day. High powered executive at a at a TV network and, does really well for herself. She's very smart. And, so we we made a good living as a couple. So, you know, I was I was lucky, very blessed, and that I had the financial freedom to be able to go for this. That I had enough in the bank. No. But I didn't make the thing, like, I this is only gonna work for 3 years. I was just like, I'll figure it out. And so, you know, and and so I just I went for it. Right? So let me ask, at this point, you're you're if I were to ask you the questions at that point, who are you, why are you, why now? At that point, who am I is I am an extremely depressed 35 year old man whose one joy in life is a dumb fantasy sports website that he is running, which is, you know, basically a a glorified blog. And we had a message board, and we had some other columnists. But, you know, it's kind of like a very souped up blog, called towns of mistrader.com. But I loved I loved the challenge of building the site, of finding the writers, of, you know, being on the message board and talking with people and dealing with customer service and trying to promote the site and go out to, you know, other websites and other radio stations and TV stations saying, I'll come on your air for free. I'll write for free. Just link back to my site and trying to build that business. And and so I I was energized by that. And so but everything else I, you know, you know, I I was feeling, you know, unloved and, you know, my marriage was breaking up and, you know, and I was giving up this this career in show business that I'd spent the last 12 years working for. And and then there's a question, why are you? Which is sort of, I guess, what unique perspective did you think you had to offer fantasy sports? I thought it could be funny and entertaining. You know, that at the time that I started, a lot of you know, fantasy sports is very dry. It's a lot of statistics. It's a lot of numbers. You know, I know, James, you deal with this as well when you when you're writing financial stuff. Like, it's tough. Right? When you're dealing with numbers, how to make numbers interesting. Right. And so, you know, that was my so that was the thing that I thought I could have that my my showbiz background, my writing ability, my my comedic background, that I could make it interesting and fun, that I could take a dry subject and make it mainstream, make it palatable, you know, make it, in a sort of bite size and, you know, more accessible is maybe a a good way to put it. More accessible to more people, not just sort of those who are very statistically inclined. And so because much of the much of the analysis that was out there was all very dry, and I always felt this way. And I still do to this day that if you if you printed out 6 different fantasy football columns or 10 pick up however many you want. Print out 10 different fantasy football columns, and you rip off the URL and you rip off the the who wrote it and it's all in the same font. But the the other 9 articles, you couldn't tell me who wrote those articles. You couldn't tell me if it was a Yahoo or a CBS or another ESPN or blah blah. You couldn't tell me any of that. But if you could read my column and even if you hate me, you'd be like, oh, that's a Mathew Berry column. That my style was very unique. That's the best compliment you could have in an industry. Like, I I felt that too when I was doing finance writing is that I had a particular perspective, and so people could. It always stood out. Whether people liked it or hated it and some people hated it, it always sort of stood out. Yeah. A 100%. I'm, my computer is about ready to die. So I'm I'm walking. Sorry, producer Jay engineer Jay. I'm, walking to plug this in so we don't lose, our connection. But that's why the sound may be a little off as I'm wandering around trying to speak loudly. But yes. So that's why. What's the third question? Why now? So more from the perspective of what was happening in Well, the why now was because I was miserable and What was happening in society? I don't know about well, Fantasy Football was starting to become more popular. The Internet was becoming more prominent. But in terms of for why now, for me, it was just like I had to. Otherwise, you know, I was getting into a dark place. Like, you know, I had I had suicidal thoughts. They were always fleeting, but I, you know, I was in a really dark depressed place. And so I did it because, literally, I had to chase happiness. It was the only you know, I mean, otherwise, I just so that was that's why now for me, it was just like, again, I I don't know that I, you know I always thought I've done a bunch of interviews where people have said, like, oh, did you ever think fantasy football will become as popular as it as it has? And I said, no. Did like, I said, did I think it would become more popular and more mainstream? Yes. Because for me look, I'm not a I'm not an obscure weird guy, at least in terms of the things that I like. Right? The things that I like like I like Springsteen. Right? I mean, like, you know, I like pizza. I like rock and roll. I like going to Vegas. I like action movies, superhero movies. Like, you know, the stuff that I like is, like, super mainstream. And I also like fantasy football. So I'm like, if I like all these other things that, you know, tons of other people like, my tastes are fairly mainstream. So my guess is that as more people get exposed to fantasy football, they'll enjoy it. And so, yes, we just need to get more people exposed to this game because I think they'll actually really love it and enjoy it. That that's an interesting insight, by the way, in the sense that a lot of people say, well, what's the latest trend? That's what I should get into. And so, like, oh, bread machines are trending on Shopify because I guess everyone's home and they're baking bread for comfort. So I should start getting into bread recipes or whatever. Whereas you're coming at it from bottoms up, which is, hey. This is what I'm interested in. So what else am I going to do? Like, this is what I should do. Well, it's a whole thing of, like, you know, it's the old phrase of, like, you know, follow your passion and you'll never work a day in your life. Right? I mean, like, I'm a big believer in that if if you if it's something you enjoy, there are other people that enjoy it. Now there, you know, there's limits. Right? I mean, there's things some things that more people will enjoy than others, but I have yet to meet anyone that has one thing that they enjoy that no one else does. Right? You know? So, I mean, like, just follow your passion. Get good at something. You know, I I we're talking a lot about comedy in this one, and I didn't again, not to analyze comedy, but one of the the amazing things about Seinfeld is back in the days when I was writing sitcoms. It was always like it was it was a lot of, like, what's the lesson and what are the stakes? And that's a note that Hollywood executives always give. What are the stakes? And what Seinfeld taught you better than anyone is that it doesn't matter what the stakes are. What's the the stakes are important. Like, this is, you know, this is the big high school dance or whatever. It doesn't matter what the stakes are. What's important is, is it important to the characters? You know, I always think about the big salad episode of Seinfeld where, George want George picks up the, it's been a while since I've seen the episode, but I believe George George buys the George buys the big salad. And then they're knocking on the door and he gives it to Elaine to hold. And then the person opens the door, and Elaine hands the big salad and gets credit for the big salad. And George is upset because he's the one who went and bought the big salad. And so it's the dumbest, smallest, penniest thing in the world, you know, but be it's funny because it's important to George. It doesn't matter that the stakes are just who gets credit for the big salad. The funny part or the important part is it's important to George. That's the stakes. And so, you know, I mean, you know, I I would just say to anyone listening that it's I would worry I wouldn't, yeah, try to jump on a trend of, like, I need to get into this or I need to get into that. Like, get into what you love. Follow your passion. I mean, it's something you did as well, James. And it's like you know? And it'll you know? I don't know that it'll work out, you know, as well as you know I I I don't know. I just think you'll be a lot happier and everything will happen. Like, I I thought I was my quote for a movie when I gave up Hollywood was a quarter of a $1,000,000. For us to write a movie, you know, a, you know, a draft of a movie and a rewrite, it was a quarter of a $1,000,000. And I gave that up thinking, like, I'm probably gonna, you know, like, you know, people aren't really making money on the Internet at this point and but whatever. I just wanna chase happiness. I don't care. I'll I'll take the hidden money. I don't care. Money's not everything. I just wanna be happy. And I've made so much more money than I ever did in Hollywood at Fantasy Football. And that was never the plan. It was just by design trying to, you know, just try to follow happiness and chase happiness and chase my passion. So during this period I mean, it's also an interesting thing what you start to learn to say yes to as opposed to no to. And what what what you were saying yes to previously, now you're saying no to. So would Hollywood start calling you, or would your writing partner start calling you and saying, hey, Matt. I know you're doing this fantasy football thing, but there's this great new sitcom starting. They want us to make a pitch. Just one more for the team. Yeah. I got a couple of those calls, and I've I've continued to get them. Literally, like, 2 years ago, a a movie producer, a big time movie producer, who I've been friends with for a long time, called me and wanted me to rewrite this football book. You know, it's just like she was just like, you know, like, I I need somebody it's a football story. I know you're a good writer and you understand football, and would you rewrite this movie for me? And I'm just like, no. I'll turn a book into a movie, basically. She had a book and wanted me to write it put it in a movie. And I just like, no. I was flattered by it, but I I said no. So, yeah, it happens every once in a while, but it's just, again, it's just you know, when I talk to college students or, you know, people ask advice, my advice is always get good at one thing. Figure out one thing to get good at. And if you can get good at one thing, everything else will expand from there. Yeah. It's really true. That's like the wheel and then there's spokes. Like, you had you had one spoke was doing all these blogs. Another spoke might have been writing for other publications. Another spoke is going on the radio. Another spoke is starting to analyze on TV. Yeah. I mean, from my point of view, right, I decided to get good at writing sitcoms when I graduated college. I decided to get good at writing sitcoms. And because I got good at writing sitcoms and I was unmarried with children, that got me a chance to write. That got me an opportunity to write, you know, blog posts, you know, whatever, fantasy football articles. And because I got good at that, I you know, somebody put me on the radio. They liked my columns and they put me on the radio. And because I was good at the radio, ESPN hired me and decided to give me some shots on some TV. And because I was good on TV and good on the radio and good at writing columns, then ESPN bought my website and and let me do this job full time. And because I've been good on MTV because I've been, you know, been good on on ESPN with the columns, the TVs, and the podcast, You know, I have a cameo in Avengers Endgame. You know what I mean? Like, it it's the dumbest thing in the world. A shield agent. I was a shield agent. I'm I'm listen. I've been in one movie in my life, Avengers Endgame. I had 4 lines. It's the highest grossing movie of all time worldwide. So on a per movie basis, I'm the highest grossing actor of all time. I mean, let's just write on average. I mean, again, on a per movie basis. Like, you know, I've done one movie. It's the highest grossing of all time. I'm sorry. It is what it is. I'm I'm not making you know, it's not bragging if it's true. Right, James? I mean, that's exactly right. But right. I mean, but, like and that was a once in a lifetime and amazing experience. But my point is is, like, that all became a all of these things that have happened to me and all the experiences I've had, you know, thanks to ESPN, all of it became possible because I started out my career by getting good at one thing. And once I got good at I focused on that, and once I got good at that thing, other opportunities made themselves available to me. And how did you know like, you said before, you were interested in Bruce Springsteen. You were interested in, you know, pizza. You're interested in other things. How did you know fantasy sports would be the thing as opposed to writing blog posts about Bruce Springsteen or music or whatever? It's just that was my passion. Like, I just I loved fantasy football more than I loved Springsteen or more than I loved pizza. You know? And, and I also thought that there was an opportunity there. I mean, I just personally I mean, how many times have you heard, you know, that, like, well, why'd you invent this? You know, why'd you invent it? Right? Well, because I was why'd you invent Post It notes? Because I was always trying to, like, take notes. And I thought you know what I mean? Like, so many Right. There's something annoying you. Yeah. It's just, you know, like, necessity is the mother invention. Right? And so so many times, you know, products and and inventions happen because the the person who invented it was, like, I'm not satisfied with the current solution, so let me come up with a better solution. And I don't wanna say that I wasn't satisfied, but I just again, I I was a avid consumer and still am of other fantasy content, and I wasn't totally satisfied with every there were some great writers and people I respect and that I'm friends with to this day. But, you know, I just felt like there was there should it was a little bit too esoteric. It was a little bit too stat heavy. It was a little bit too nerdy. And that I thought there would be an opportunity there to, you know, to sort of bring my unique style, pop culture, humor, you know, accessibility, making it, you know, more mainstream, taking, you know, large pieces of information and and putting them into, you know, sort of bite sized nuggets that Right. And I think it's important to to understand too that for a while, it was a transition. For a while, you were doing both, and then you made the transition. And it takes years for these things to happen. But, you know, what would you say to some let's say someone's listening to this, and they're a paralegal at at Procter and Gamble. And they're thinking, you know what? I was just furloughed, or I might be furloughed, or I might be fired. And things are accelerated now. I've gotta kinda figure out what to do next. Like, not that there's a a solid process, but what what are maybe some questions they can ask themselves or or ways to think about it to purse in order to determine what they love and what the next steps might be? Well, they should know what they love. And then you think about, well, how can I make a living at this? And then the question becomes, like, okay. How can I do how can I make inroads, given my current situation? Again, I was very lucky in that, you know, I had saved up a nest egg. I didn't have kids. Yes. I I changed careers at 35 and started over at 35, but I also my wife and I my first wife and I, you know, now ex wife, we'd split up. And, so I was unencumbered. Right? I wasn't worried about supporting a spouse. I wasn't worried about supporting children. I had no immediate monetary needs. Like, you know, I wasn't getting rich, but I also wasn't, worried about where my next meal was coming from. I think like that. I had to be, you know, conservative and smart. So, you know, there are people out there that are furloughed that have that have significant others, that have kids, that, that have money issues. And so, you know, all those challenges are very, very real and, you know so I don't know that there's blank advice for any one particular person. But what I would say is it's, like, start small. I mean, I you know, is there your dream is to open up your own bakeshop. Okay. Well, you don't need to you don't need to do that. Are there pieces you can do? Right? Like, I didn't build a fantasy empire overnight. I started with a column once a week for free and built my way from there. Right? Could you make 1 pie a week? You know what I mean? Could you could you make 2 pies a week? Is there a local, you know, you know, will somebody will somebody pay you for a pie? Will you just give away your pie? People start talking about your pie. I you know what I mean? Like, are there baby steps? What's the first baby step you can take? Right. Is there an hour during the week that you can carve out to do your passion? After the kids are in bed or wake up an hour early or something like that? Or give up working out one day or, you know and I don't know the answer. You know what I mean? Again, everyone's in a different situation and we're in a weird world at the moment. Right? And it it's awful and it's, you know, words don't describe, you know, what everyone's going through. The words are inadequate. Well, do you get worried that, sports and NFL, when it comes back, is the fan experience gonna be different? Because the the stadiums might not be full. It might be empty. It might be just for TV. Do you get nervous now that, hey, sports as we know it could could be ending or changing? Sure. Of course. I mean, listen. I, you know, I I mean, I mean, who knows? I mean, you know, ESPN, like, you know, the like like a lot of companies, in America, Disney has been hit hard. There's been a lot of stories about that. ESPN is a division of Disney. And so if there's no football season, you know, I hope that I'm still employed, but I don't know. I don't know what Disney you know what I mean? Like, you know, could Disney decide to furlough me if there's no football season if football gets canceled? Sure. You know, 100%. So you always worry about that. It's specific to your you know, but I'll there's nothing I can do about it. Right? All I can do is try to do the best job I can and and handle it however it happens. Right? You know, and try to show value to my employer and continue to, you know, be a company man and, you know, and Would you ever do fantasy sports of other sports Oh, sure. I mean, I started I started my career the very first fantasy column I ever wrote was a fantasy basketball call. I mean, I I did fantasy baseball and fantasy basketball for a number of years along with fantasy football. But football's become so much bigger and become kind of a year round sport. We've already done, you know even though it's the off season, I've done a a bunch of different podcasts. My own, the Fantasy Focus podcast. We've done a a couple episodes of the Fantasy Show on ESPN Plus around free agency and the NFL draft. And so, you know, my rankings are up on espn.com for 2020 right now, and I've written a couple columns as well. So, we're producing content. It's it's a football's become a year round sport. But, but, sure. I mean, you know, football got canceled, but there was a basketball season. You know, those are all decisions that, you know, I would make along with ESPN, and we'll see what happens. But, ultimately, I guess, in terms of do I think the fan experience will change? A 100%. Of course, I do. As as it relates to Fantasy Football, I actually think that Fantasy Football will become more popular if there is a season this year because going to the game will be more difficult or people may not want to go to the game because it's not easy. You know, money is tighter these days. And so maybe there's not as many people that have as much discretionary income. And so, I think there'll be more people sitting at home watching football than going to the stadiums for a variety of reasons to watch the games, assuming there's a season. So I think, you know, there'll be more people that are interested in fans of football because if you're watching football, there's nothing better than playing fantasy football and having a rooting interest in every single game. You know, one one thing about your story that that strikes me when I'm thinking about it as applies to myself, there's one decision that would have been really hard for me, I think. And this is just my own insecurities and and so on. But, like, when you made the decision to, you know, go from writing the the screenplays to being, single and writing these blog posts for a $100 a post or working on your own site and and so on, I think I would've been nervous about what other people thought of me, which is a bad thing to be nervous about, but I'm just being honest. Like, I would've been worried. Here's this guy. He's 35 years old. He's divorced, and he used to be cool writing screenplays. Like, let's say you were still living in LA, and that's the whole culture of LA. And now he's what is he doing? I don't quite get it. I would have been more nervous. I would never have met, like, another woman, for instance. Yeah. I mean, again, so it's a couple of things. I I was I was definitely nervous about that, and it it it's probably one of the reasons it probably delayed me for a year or 2 before because I was like, everyone's gonna be like, are you wait a minute. You're quitting show business for for for some dumb Internet site that makes no money to do what's it called? Fake football? Like, what? Fantasy football? You know what I mean? Yes. 100%. But it got to I mean, that's the thing is I got to a point where it was just like, I either do this I I need to save my life. Like, I I either do this or I who knows what happens. Right? So it got to a breaking point where it just it no longer mattered what anyone thought. But what was weird, James, is that I found is, again, sometimes the things that our biggest fears turned out to be our biggest strength. So, you know, I, you know, I, like, for example, I would then as I was as I was in the kind of transition page. Right? Like I said, you know, my ready partner decided to do one last, one last screenplay. And so while we were doing that, but I was transitioning and I was making this full time career and I was letting people know that I was quitting or even afterwards, because I lived in LA for another another year. You know, I basically quit in 2,005 to to make a go of it. I lived in LA 2,000 I didn't move to Connecticut and joined ESPN till, 2007. So, you know, 2006, I would still go out to parties and, you know, meet friends and I had a lot of all my friends were in show business. And so I'd go to, you know, parties or bars, whatever, and people would ask what had happened. And I tell them the story and they're all and I was so nervous. Right? Yeah. That's right. I quit show business to pursue fantasy football. You know, this is pre ESPN. And the reaction was, oh my god. You got out. And I'm I'm so that's so brave. Good for you. You know what I mean? So people were so supportive. You know, and good for you, man. That's so that was that was amazing. And, you know, and then I I put that I put that honesty about myself in my columns. I'm a you know, I've made no bones about this. I'm a huge Howard Stern fan, and there's a lot to admire about Howard. And one of the things that I think has made him the incredible success he is is that he is so honest and open about his life, the good and the bad. And and so I've tried to emulate that and I've, you know, again, made no bones about the fact that I've completely tried to steal a lot of stick from Howard because that's also like, find people that are smart, that do what you do or not even do what you do, but find people that you admire, that that you think do a good job, and try to learn and steal from them. And so Yeah. His book, Howard Stern Comes Again, is, like, the master class on how to do an interview. Yes. It is. Like, I do think he is the best interviewer by far on the planet. 1000%. Well, Matt Berry, I know you're busy even during this lockdown, figuring out all the fantasy picks and everything. Thank you so much for coming on again after a a 6 year absence from the podcast. And, I I super appreciate it. I really admire your story. It's always stuck with me. It's always made me think about, you know, different stages of my own story, and, I I think it's I think it's very inspirational. And, of course, it's it's taking you to massive success. By the way, after we had scheduled this podcast Yeah. I've been rewatching, the TV series The League. And, of course, in the second season, you're you're on an episode, a famous episode of The League. It was a it's a great episode. You do very well. And, it was funny. I But I appreciate that. By the way, this is very weird. But that episode so it's it's it's actually season 3 episode 3. It's called the au pair. And, and and so if you, you know, you wanna watch on Netflix or wherever you watch the league, and, it's a great show. People come up to me, you know, whatever. 7 years after I did that, I still get, hey, Matthew Perry. Pretty sure on the bar. You know, I still get people quoting that show to me. But what's amazing is is that the woman that plays the off hair in that episode is Brie Larson. So I've done very little acting in my life, but the two things that I've done, I've done the league and I've done Avengers Endgame, and Brie Larson is in both of them. And I've literally never Did she come to the vet? No. I've never met Brie Larson. I mean, you know, my scenes in both both projects were, you know, separate from Brie. She's obviously a massive star. But I just find that interesting that, apparently, you know, apparently, when Brie Larson does something, I show up as well. So, anyway, I just That's so funny. You just send her a gift basket. I really I really should. She's terrific. She's very talented. But what I was gonna say is, James, I'll just say one last thing. Thank you for having me. It's, you know, I'm a fan of yours for a long time. I was a fan before we came friends. It's been, it's been great getting to know you. My, I just found out this morning. I was talking to my, my 19 year old son who's a sophomore at Tulane. I mentioned he was like, what are you doing today? And I told him I'm I'm doing I mentioned that, I'm doing your podcast. He's like, oh, I bought that guy's Bitcoin book. I love that guy. So That's funny. There you go. I didn't even know I had a, he was a fan of yours. I had a fan of yours in my, in my in my house. But, what I was gonna say is That that's good to know. One thing I was gonna say just to your fans in terms of, like, sort of pursuing your dreams, like so I do a show on ESPN plus called The Fantasy Show, and it's a weird show. Like, we have puppets and a talking robot, and we have a you know, and my sidekick isn't like a typical pretty girl. My sidekick is a guy with a big bushy beard, tattoos all over his body, a nose ring, and, you know, in big, you know, loop earrings. It does not look like anyone you normally see on ESPN. I'll leave it at that. And, but it was the show that I thought was the funniest and, you know, I I got to a place where ESPN was like, what do you wanna do? You know, we're gonna give you a show. Do what you wanna do. And I'm like, this is what I think is funny. This is what I think is different. I know it's weird. I know you're like, wait, a puppet show? And, like, pop you want puppets and talking robots and, you know, this bearded weird guy? And I'm like, I do. I and, you know, it's it's it's the highest rated studio show on ESPN plus now, you know, and we're going into our 4th season. So That's great. So and but I I don't say that to brag about me, but merely to say, like, again, there will always be people that say no, that doubt you, that that say don't do that, that oh, you can't do that. Why are you gonna do that? That even after I had had a lot of success at ESPN, there were still people that didn't want me to do they wanted me to do a typical me behind a desk with 2 other people talking over highlights. And I was just, like, no. I wanna do something that I think will stand out. I wanna do something that I think is funny that amuses me. And, you know, it it's worked out. Right? And I'm I'm much happier doing that than I am than I would be if I just done another there's nothing wrong with them. I do them all the time. The, you know, behind the desk with 2 other people kinda shows. But, for this one, for me, I just I wanted I wanted puppets. I thought I think puppets are funny. Yeah. And, look, I think, again, it's a context thing. Like, you felt that the typical anchor setup wouldn't or newsroom setup wouldn't work well. And, like, you look at you look at the sitcom, the league, for instance, which is a ostensibly a sitcom about fantasy football. I know nothing about fantasy sports, and yet I've gotten away with 2 interviews with you, and I've watched this entire series twice. And I still don't know anything about fantasy sports. And, yeah, that's a funny sitcom, and these are great interviews, and I loved your book, the fantasy life. So it's not a pre you know, you know, fantasy sports is something to do, but then there's the whole subculture around it, which, you know, you've now added to, and maybe that subculture doesn't like the typical newsroom. Yeah. Listen. Ultimately, at the end of the day, fantasy is fun. Right? It's a game. It's a hobby we play, to pass the time, and so I've always tried to embrace that. So many so many other people are like, crush your league, dominate your opponent. Like, yes. It is more fun when you win. There's no question. It is more fun when you win, but it's ultimately, this is an escape. It's a hobby. It's something to do with your buddies, with your your friends from college, or your coworkers, or your family. You know, like, you know, it's fun, man. And so I always think content should reflect that. And so I always try very hard to do it and do it in a different way. And and I thought, you know, with all the ESPN has 7 different channels and how can I stand out and how can I do something different? And, and I thought you could you know, ESPN, we're a conservative company. You know, we're owned by the Disney Corporation. I thought, well, you know what? You can get away with a little bit more if you have puppets. Like, you know, a puppet can tell a dirty joke that, that I can't. So, that's funny. So it's, it's a bit of a subversive show as well. Well, Matt Berry, I don't even know what you want me to plug. The I the Fantasy Show on ESPN plus? Fantasy Show on ESPN plus. Fantasy Focus podcast. You can subscribe there if you do that. You know, if you like fantasy sports, download the Fantasy Life app, which is a 100% free, and our alerts are literally the best in the business. So it's a 100% free. The Fantasy Life app just it's worth 4.8 stars on iOS and 5 stars on Google, Android. So, again, a 100% free. Just search for Matthew Berry's Fantasy Life, in, wherever you get your apps. It's a great app. And There you go. Thanks once again, Matt, for coming on the show. My pleasure. Let's not make it 6 years between my next appearance. Definitely not. Alright, brother.
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