Josh Radnor

Transcript

Weeks now, New Jersey residents have been plagued by unexplained drones flying overhead. Is there intelligent alien life? And if so, has the government been covering it up? Alright. UFO sightings the military can't explain. Congressional hearings. Pentagon whistleblower. What does it all mean? What does it all mean? We are here to try and figure it all out with our new Ancient Aliens podcast. There is a doorway in the universe. Beyond it is the promise of truth. It demands we question everything we have ever been taught. The evidence is all around us. The future is right before our eyes. Eyes. We are not alone. We have never been alone. Listen to the Ancient Aliens podcast available wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode four zero four of the true crime all the time unsolved podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson Gibby. How are you? Hey. I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing pretty well. Definitely a lot better than I was last week. That's good. Feeling good. The voice is good. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Stephanie Williams. AE Williams. Scott eighty five. What is up eighty five? Amber sweetheart. Well, thank you, sweetheart. Scott Kane. Hey, Kane. Sydney Waddell's back with us. Thanks, Sydney. Dessa. Well, there's Dessa. Kelly jumped out to her highest level. We love you, Kelly. Amber Palmer. Hey. Thanks, Amber. Dixie, wait for it, Normous. Well, thanks. Normous. I have to really put a pause between those two. I can relate. Cara Jett. Did you say Cara? Cara Jett. Yeah. I was laughing too hard from what you said. What up, Jett? And last but not least, Natalie r. Hey, Natalie. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Rhonda Allred. Alright, Rhonda. Yeah. Rhonda's a a big fan of the show, good friend of the show. Yeah. Been with us a long time, but also, you know, has communicated with us a lot over the years, emails, voice mails, things like that. So It's awesome. Appreciate it. We have a lot out right now, Gibbs. We dropped a Patreon episode on Saturday where we're talking about the disappearance of Jeremy Byrd, which occurred in 02/2007. He's never been found. But, obviously, as in most cases, police believe no someone knows what happened to him. I I think the very interesting part about this case is that in recent years, there's some things that have come out, which have led to speculation that Jeremy's disappearance could be related to an earlier missing person's case in the same area. Yeah. Very fascinating. Yeah. The the connections and what they mean. We also have a brand new episode out right now on True Crime All the Time where we're talking about James Van Callis. April Millsap was murdered while walking her dog on a popular trail. Prosecutors use data from her fitness tracker app and, you know, a few eyewitnesses to help secure a conviction in her case. But, you know, it's very circumstantial, but a lot of fascinating details. So make sure you check that out. Alright, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time Unsolved? I am ready. We are talking about the disappearance of Stephen Clark. Twenty three year old Stephen Clark disappeared on 12/28/1992 in a seaside town in North Yorkshire. Nearly thirty years later, his parents were arrested on suspicion of murder, accused of killing their son, and burying his body in their back garden. Well, how creepy is that? Well, it's creepy if they did it. Right? But how bad would it be if your son had been missing for almost thirty years, and then police came and arrested you and charged you with his murder? Stephen Clark was born in The United Kingdom, but he spent most of his life in South Africa. According to the Northern Echo, his parents, Doris and Charles Clark, worked as police officers. Steven was hit by a truck when he was just two years old. He suffered severe injuries and was in a coma for a month. His parents were told he would never be able to walk or talk again. To be hit by a truck? Wow. At any age is brutal. Yeah. But to be hit by a truck when you're two years old. Now some people say, you know, kids are able to absorb some of these injuries better than adults? I've heard that. Is it more flexible? Maybe. Bones or something. Things haven't developed. I don't know. But, obviously, these were very severe injuries. He was in a coma for a month. And if a doctor comes out and says to you, hey. You know, your son's never going to be able to walk or talk again. I mean, that would be devastating news. For sure. Steven recovered from his injuries but was disabled due to them. His left arm was damaged, and he walked with a pronounced limp. The BBC reported that his ability to walk was severely impaired. His family said that Stephen always had a positive mindset and didn't let his disability get in his way. He was described as determined, enthusiastic, and happy go lucky. And I don't know if you've seen people like this, Gibbs. People who have gone through something really horrible that's greatly affected their life in a negative way, but they are like the most upbeat people you've ever met. Yeah. And they don't let this type of stuff or what happened to them get them down. If anything, they seem happier than most of us I know. And more determined than most of us. Kinda like that, character in, Pesachot, Eugene Levy's character with the two left feet. Yeah. Yeah. He was determined to win the dog show. I don't know how that compares to what I'm talking about now. But Well, he didn't let his two left feet hold him back. No. He didn't. He also didn't let it hold him back from going on to star in Schitt's Creek. Victoria recalled about her brother. Per the Daily Mail, Steven was not a worrier at all. And he used to say to me, if you worry, you die. And if you don't worry, you die. So why worry? Hey. That's a good point. And it's a great way to live if you can manage it. I have some people in my family who are major warriors. I, myself, have never been one. I don't worry about a lot of things because of that kind of very idea. I I've never found worrying to really help at all. So why expend the calories on it? The outcome is the outcome. Right? It's gonna be what it's gonna be. Now that's not the same as making sure you're prepared or, you know, things like that. But just straight worrying, sitting around and worrying has never really done anyone any good. No. But it doesn't mean people can stop. No. You're always gonna have certain people are always gonna worry. Yeah. Some people are just built that way. His family tried to help Stephen live his normal life as possible. His younger sister, Victoria Orr, said she was protective of him despite Stephen being 14 older. For example, when they were younger, she would often walk in front of Stephen and make funny faces so people would look at her instead of him. What a sister. Yeah. It's really heartwarming when you think about it. As a youngster, to have the presence of mind, to know that people are most likely looking at your older brother, Some people are probably, unfortunately, even making fun of him. You're gonna do everything in your power to take the focus off of him and put it on to you. Yeah. Because you know how cruel some people can be. Victoria described her brother as an avid Arsenal fan, a music lover who could play the baritone euphonium, a great swimmer, and someone who loved computing and IT. Stephen also had a great sense of humor. Okay. I know Arsenal is a big soccer team or football team as they would call it Yeah. Over there. I've heard of that of Arsenal. My son in law's favorite team. Is it? Yeah. I did not know that. Yeah. I didn't know he was a big football fan. I didn't either till I got his Christmas list. Was that on it? It was. Personal tickets? No. Just the, you know, the post. Oh, like a poster shirt. Okay. Stuff like that. I was like, okay. How, extravagant are you going on these Christmas gifts? But the one thing I had never heard of is a euphonium. Oh, yeah. What's a euphonium? I play it all the time. Well, you play a lot of things. That doesn't mean they're real or that you really know what they are. Sometimes I get it out, dust it off, and we get busy. I I've never heard of a a euphonium at all. The family moved back to England in 1990. They lived in Guildford before settling in Marisk, a small fishing village in North Yorkshire. Stephen participated in the Rathbone Society in nearby Redcar, a nonprofit that helps people with disabilities find employment. He was awarded apprentice of the year. I mean and and I'm telling you right now, I know we're going to delve into some darker topics, right, as we progress through the episode. But right now, as we stand talking about Steven Clark, this guy's blowing me away. Sure. I mean, I'm in awe of the mindset he has and how he's living his life. Overcoming obstacles. Stephen Clark disappeared on the afternoon of 12/28/1992 in Saltburn By The Sea, a small town near Mars. I wonder if it has anything to do with that movie. Saltburn? Yeah. Yeah. You kept telling me to watch it for a long time. I finally did and, thoroughly enjoyed it except for the very last scene, which I was completely perplexed by. Well, the one I had to do the, body double for? Yes. Yeah. But I don't know. I I remember the castle was called Saltburn. I don't think it had anything to do with where it was located, but I could be wrong. Good good flick. Yeah. Yeah. It was good. Different. Just, you know, took a detour right there at the very end. Steven and his mother Dorris went on a walk that afternoon. They both stopped to use the public restrooms At the pier, Doris saw Stephen enter the men's room, but she never saw him leave. Charles wasn't with them that day. He had gone to watch a Middlesboro soccer game. Stephen and Doris decided to walk from Morris to Saltburn and back, a trip that they had made many times. The pier was about three miles from their home. Charles and Doris recalled that Stephen was put out on the day of his disappearance because Charles asked him to pay for a ticket to the Middlesboro match. Steven decided not to go. However, they don't think he was angry enough that he would want to leave home. And the one thing we haven't talked about is that, yes, Steven lived with obstacles, but he was able to walk and talk. Right? The the doctors came out and said that he would never do either. And so, obviously, and I'm sure he worked pretty hard. He managed to accomplish those two goals. Right. And it sounds like he was taking some pretty long walks here. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Now to some people, six miles round trip is not that far. To me, that is a marathon. You'd be lucky to get, halfway into that. Yeah. I might have to call an Uber. You look like you're getting winded just thinking about it. Doris waited for Steven outside the restroom for a while. She later explained that she didn't go in because Steven would have been horrified if she had. But is that something you're gonna regret down the road? Are you gonna wish that you went in and checked or at least ask somebody, hey. Can you go in and call out my son's name to see if he's in there? Yeah. I mean, we've talked about all the things that people regret. This is gonna be one of them. Whether you should or not, it doesn't matter. You're gonna have guilt over a lot of different things, but I understand what she's saying. What 23 year old man wants his mom to walk into the bathroom to check on him? Yeah. I wouldn't want, you know, my mom to come in if I was in the bathroom back in the day. But, hey. No. I bet you didn't. I'm talking about public Oh. Bathrooms. Yeah. I'm talking about that too. So Doris eventually went home expecting to find Steven there, but he never showed up. Charles came home from the football match and started looking for Steven. He searched the beach by their house and traveled to Saltburn. At the time, Victoria was living away from home. Charles and Doris called her and told her Steven was missing, but they didn't want her to panic. Still, Victoria was worried about her brother. It was highly out of character for Steven to leave for long periods of time without telling anyone. Steven's family reported them missing. The police were especially concerned because he left his wallet, glasses, and watch at home. Detectives eventually came to believe Steven had come to harm. His bank account has not been accessed since he disappeared, and there's no evidence he traveled anywhere on his own. Well, yeah, when they said he left his wallet, his glasses, and his watch, not so worried about the watch, but the wallet and his glasses makes you wonder. Yeah. I mean, you and I have talked about it a number of times. To me, what a person leaves behind often, you know, sets my mind down a path as to, you know, whether they left voluntarily or something happened to them. And most people who are, you know, going to, let's say, go start a new life, they're gonna want their glasses. They're gonna want their wallet. Yeah. And, you know, here's Steven who's got some obstacles. Is he the candidate to just run off? And I would say probably not. Not that he he couldn't, but it did sound like he he probably relied on his family for certain things. Seemed unlikely. Yeah. Seems very unlikely. And not accessing the bank account. Alright. So you don't have your wallet. You haven't accessed any money. How you paying for anything? Where are you staying? How you eating? To me, none of that is a good sign. No. One theory was that Steven went into the water, but there was no evidence to support this. And you're, you know, you're gonna have a ton of theories that pop up in a case like this because what else do you have but theories? Well, yeah. I mean, you're gonna run down any thought that comes across. Right? I mean, could he got into the water? And my assumption is if he were to fall into the water, it would be much tougher for him than it would be for most people, given the things that he was dealing with. Steven's case went cold. The clerks appealed to the public for help. In the years after he went missing, Doris said they were asked to declare their son legally dead, but they just couldn't bring themselves to do it. And I do think that would be hard for a family. That's a hard decision to make. It is. You are essentially saying, I'm giving up my hope that this person will ever be found or will come back. Yeah. Go go ahead and close the case, and we'll just call it done. Now in some cases, there's a financial reason that, you know, someone needs to be declared legally dead. Right. But I don't know if that would have been the case here with Steven. You know what, folks? I drink a lot of water, but I don't really trust my tap water. I never have. And according to extensive research by the Environmental Working Group, virtually every home in America has harmful contaminants in its tap water. That's why you have to check out AquaTru. AquaTru purifiers use a four stage reverse osmosis purification process, and their countertop purifiers work with no installation or plumbing. It removes 15 times more contaminants than ordinary pitcher filters and are specifically designed to combat chemicals like PFAs in your water supply. 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That's why Homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in-depth information they need to find the right home. And when I say in-depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, and student to teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place. Homes.com. We've done your homework. In September 1999, an anonymous letter was sent to the Guysborough police station about Steven's disappearance. The identity of the letter writer remained a mystery. For years, in 02/2020, the Cleveland and North Yorkshire Police initiated a cold case review and reopened Steven's case. Detective chief inspector Sean Page told the BBC that they followed a significant number of lines of inquiry. Since they reopened the case, he said there's no proof of life, and we believe Steven has come to serious harm. The case continues to be classified as one of suspected murder. And and I don't know how, really, they could lean towards anything else, Gibbs, given everything that we've talked about. Sounds like they don't believe he'd harmed himself and that he didn't decide to take off for a new life. So what options are you left with? Yeah. And when he talks about there's no proof of life, well, I'm taking that to mean, you know, in all the years that have gone by, there there have been no sightings. Nobody said, yeah. I saw him here. I saw him there. And we do have that sometimes in unsolved cases. The public was shocked on September fifteenth of that year when Doris and Charles Clark, now 81 and 78 respectively, were arrested on suspicion of murder. The Cleveland police didn't name the couple, but they confirmed their arrest to the press association. Dore said they denied murdering their son, adding, there's nothing I can say except for the shock of being arrested. I was gonna say, you imagine being approached by the police thinking, oh, I wonder if they're here because they got some updates. News Yeah. On what happened to our son. But instead, they say, hey. You both are being arrested. Doris is 81. Charles is 78 years old. These are not young people. Doris recalled how the police arrived at their door at 8AM with no warning. They were told they were being arrested for murder and were interrogated. Doris was accused of murdering Steven, and Charles was accused of burying him in the back garden of the family home. She claimed the police never provided a potential motive. Let's talk about that for a minute. What would the motive be? What would a potential motive be for these two people to kill their son? I mean, was he a burden to them? Was he draining them financially? Which could also be a burden. Sure. It could all be part of the same thing. And that's really the only thought that went through my mind is that they decided that they didn't wanna have to take care of him anymore. Again, I don't know at the age of 23 how much they had to take care of him, how much time was involved, you know, how much, of a burden financially it was. But other than that, I I don't know what the motive would be. Yeah. Charles said the arrest was shocking because they spent twenty eight years trying to get the police more involved, but it seemed like all they got was a yearly checkup where the police showed up to ask about Steven's whereabouts. Charles and Doris were released on bail and spent five days in a hotel while forensic investigators combed through their home. The police also dug up their back garden. Charles told the BBC, they dug up everything. They moved the shed and everything. The police have got a job to do. Why they pick on us, I haven't got a clue. Why it took so long to free us, I don't know. Later that month, the police urged the anonymous letter writer to come forward and help them solve the case. So forensics come in and checks the whole house out thirty years later. I don't know what you're gonna find thirty years later in a house. Yeah. I don't know what you're expecting to find. I mean, unless somebody kept something hidden and as a, trophy or whatever you're right? I mean, in the backyard, yeah, maybe dig some things up. Maybe you'll find some bones, potentially. I mean, if he's buried in the back garden, they're they're gonna find that. But if you buried your son in your backyard, would you really try to keep the police involved over the years, or would you just let it go? Just let it go. Wow. You would think you'd just wanna not have much to do with the police at all. Yeah. But the other thing, you know, that I'm really getting from this is that it sounds to me like they really took a lot or put a lot of weight on this anonymous letter Yeah. And what it said in it. It was originally thought that Steven was last seen at the Saltburn Pier, but the police revealed that Steven might have been seen later in the day near his home in Marsk. A woman and her family passed a man they believed to be Steven. As they were walking up on the high street towards Marske Square, he was walking in the opposite direction, towards the ship in. It was not dark yet, meaning it must have been before 03:45PM. The woman saw the original coverage of Steven's disappearance in the nineties, but she didn't think she had any relevant information at the time. She came forward after the renewed publicity in 02/2020. The police also rereleased video footage of Steven before he disappeared. He participated in a training video for the Rathbone Society. This video was first televised in 1993 to show Steven's distinctive walk in hopes someone might recognize him and report a sighting. In November 2020, detectives released excerpts of the 1999 letter to show the sender's handwriting. News outlets published an image of the letter, but most of the content was redacted. The letter ends with, I hope this may be of assistance. So a couple of interesting things here. Number one is that the letter was sent, like, twenty one years before they were arrested. Right. So it wasn't like they had just got this letter. Then you have this woman who comes forward, again, twenty eight years later and says that, you know, she has some relevant information. And I'm assuming it doesn't say it exactly, but I'm assuming that was kind of the basis for maybe the peer not being his last known location. It being closer to home. Then was his mom lying? Or as far as she knows, he went in the bathroom, never came out. She went on home, and he was seen down closer to their house but unaware to her. Well, I don't know. There's a lot of mysteries here so far. According to detective chief inspector Sean Page, this letter is just one of several key lines of inquiry in the case. The letter was sent to Geysborough Police Station and is very precise in nature. The letter writer intimated that Steven was dead and that they claim to know who the person responsible. It was, you know, like, twenty one years ago. So the letter writer could have died since then. But if anyone recognizes the handwriting, we would urge them to get in touch. So one thing that I'm having a little bit of a problem with is that, you know, if they're putting so much weight on what was in the contents of this letter, why did they wait twenty eight years to act on it? Well, I think they were just holding it and not sharing it at first. But I think when this lady came forward saying she had relevant information about Steven, maybe this sparked some new interest into this letter. Well, it must have helped to corroborate what was in the letter in some way to the point where they felt that they could go arrest his parents. Again, we don't have all the the contents of the letter. We don't know at this point everything that the woman told them. In December, investigators revealed that they were able to identify and speak with the letter writer, marking what they called a significant moment in the investigation. What must have been significant because on 02/16/2021, Doris and Charles Clark were released without charges. You wonder how they felt? Had to be mixed emotions. Elation, I'm sure, that they were being released, but anger that they had been incarcerated for some time. They received a letter informing them they were released from bail, but were still under investigation and may be interviewed again. Doris Clark said about their release per the BBC, it's wonderful. It was never going to be any other way, really. I think it is not really sunk in yet. I'm sure tomorrow, we'll be feeling more completely ecstatic. It's a good thing to have happen. So, I mean, that answers part of your question, but Yeah. You know, I I I still think there had to have been some anger, animosity, resentment. I don't know what you wanna call it about I know for me, if I spent any time incarcerated for something I didn't do, I'm gonna have some real hard feelings. You're gonna have a grudge for a while. Sure. Especially, you know, when they release me, they don't charge me, and they say, you know what? You're free to go, but, hey. You're still under investigation, and we may interview you again. Yeah. We're keeping our eye on you. But the natural question, Gibbs, is, okay. What did the letter writer tell police that caused them to release Charles and Doris? Obviously, it was something in the letter that helped lead them to the decision to arrest them. Sure. And it was something that the letter writer told them that made them believe they had made a grave mistake. Now they're not going to admit they made a grave mistake. Charles said he believes Steven was still out there somewhere adding, it's been twenty eight years, and we haven't heard a thing from him. And, again, that's the other thing we talk about in unsolved. You have a person, a child. Now he's 23 years old, but he's a child, right, of these people. Sure. Unless there was some animosity that wasn't documented, what would be the reason why this guy doesn't wanna talk to his parents ever again? People who have helped him all his life are still helping him at the age of 23 as he's dealing with these obstacles. Well, if he's still alive, there would be no reason for that unless there is something very terrible that went on that household that we're not aware of. Yeah. That has never, you know, come out. But that's a thought I have in every case. And that's why, you know, I I tend to lean towards something terrible happening to these individuals because it's kinda what all the facts point to. Doris described her experience in prison as scary and ludicrous. Okay. Yes. She's 81 years old. Yeah. Prison is scary at any age. But I think if you're an 81 year old woman in prison with a bunch of 20 year olds, that has to be very scary. And and the same with Charles. You know, he's 78 years old. It's gonna be, different than their normal lives. Yeah. You're not sitting in your easy chair watching Matlock every day. Having tea and crumpets? Yeah. You're thrown in with a bunch of people who have done or been accused of doing probably some pretty horrible things. She said, how did they know he had been murdered? As far as we know, there's no evidence. Charles said they had been ignored during their seventeen week ordeal. After twenty eight years of Steven being missing, why suddenly pounce on us like that and within twenty four hours, take us out of our home and lock us away? I thought it was a joke. I was looking for the cameras. I thought it was a TV stunt or something where they were playing a trick on us, but it wasn't. It was horrible. I'm sure it was a nightmare. That would be one of the worst, Ashton Kutcher punked episodes ever. Oh, that would not go over well. You know, messing with the elderly parents of a a a guy who's been missing for twenty eight years. The Cleveland police declined to comment after the couple was released. I bet they did because what were they going to say? How are they going to explain the logic behind it? Yeah. I don't think there's a good response for them to come out with. No. Better just to say no comment. Yeah. Just hope that it fades away. In April 2021, the Cleveland police announced they would spend several days searching Saltburn Bank for evidence in Steven's case. Officers plan to look through undergrowth from the bottom of the Valley Gardens to the top of a walkway near the spa hotel on the edge of a steep bank. I mean, this is thirty years later. Yeah. And, again, I'm sure they did some searching. How much of it? We don't know back when, you know, he was reported missing. But to your point, Giz, we're talking about, you know, almost thirty years later, what are you expecting to find at this point? I mean, obviously, if there's bones out there, you may find them. Yeah. True Crime All the Time Unsolved is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game, shifting a little money here, a little there, and hoping it all works out? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can be a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill too. You tell Progressive what you wanna pay for car insurance, and they'll help you find options within your budget. Try it today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Doris and Charles spoke to The Mirror ahead of the premiere of the documentary Accused of Murdering Our Son, the Stephen Clark story. The documentary follows the couple over a period of seventeen weeks after their arrest and explores two potential sightings of Stephen in the days after he disappeared. The Clarks invited the former police officer and investigative journalist, Mark Williams Thomas, into their home to discuss the case. Charles revealed to the mirror that Steven was in a new relationship. At the time of his disappearance, he met a young woman at the ship in in Saltburn. Charles said this relationship with the girl lasted about a week or ten days. He liked to go to a local pub. She was there. They were about the same age. They never met other than in the pub. It was days before he went missing. It was not a serious girlfriend. He had not had a serious one. We lived in South Africa, then near London before he came here. He was nearly killed in the road accident when he was two. Remember, he really had recovered immensely. Doris added, he saw her around in March. I don't know how long they had known each other. They met in the ship in, but I have no idea how old she was. But both of them were convinced. She had nothing to do with Steven's disappearance. But you kinda have to look at that a little bit. Right? Yeah. You're always gonna look at whoever, you know, a person who goes missing is in a relationship with regardless of how long it is. The Cleveland and North Yorkshire cold case review team believe Steven was in a relationship with a girl he met at the Rathbone Society. They thought this was significant because it indicated Steven was happy when he went missing. And I think, you know, even less of a reason for him to just take off and leave. Right? If he's happy Why would he go somewhere? Why would he just take off and leave his life? So going back to, you know, Charles and Doris talking about two potential sightings of Steven on the afternoon of 12/28/1992, a woman who knew the family saw Steven up the hill from the public restrooms at the Saltburn Pier. Stan Kamish, another family friend, said he saw Steven in nearby Redcar. After he went missing, his widow told the documentary team that he spoke to Steven. However, Camus later told the police he saw someone who looked like him and walked like him, but he only saw the man from a distance. So that's tough. Right? He can't be sure. Yeah. But remember, they said that Steven had a particular style of walk. They had a very distinctive walk. The couple also addressed the witness who claimed she saw Steven near his home in Marisk around 03:45PM. According to Doris, this is the time that the police suggested we murdered him. They said, we had about an hour to have done away with him. It's too ridiculous for work. Again, going back to this woman who said she saw Steven around his home, coupled with the letter, I think is really what spurred police to arrest his parents. Yeah. I believe so. Dora said that during her interrogation, she was asked what she and Steven spoke about that day, but she couldn't remember. She was asked if Charles was dishonest and hid things from her. She thought to herself, well, yes. He might do. At the end of the interview, a detective told her she was violent and controlling and asked where Steven's body was. Wow. You're a very violent old lady. And tell us where the body is. In 02/2022, the Clark family joined the charity Missing People to appeal for answers on the thirtieth anniversary of Stephen's disappearance. Victoria Orr said in a public statement, Stephen going missing has been a living nightmare. For all of us, our relationship as a family was love filled. Stephen and I couldn't have wished for a happier childhood. The family also issued an official statement, which was published by the BBC. It read, dealing with ambiguous loss is a life sentence. The constant, painful limbo of not knowing is a horrible thing to live with. We still hope that he will walk through the door one day, but we appreciate that as each year passes, it becomes more and more unlikely. We just want to know what happened. And who wouldn't wanna know what happened? But I think what Doris said, you know, that's a sentiment shared by a lot of loved ones of missing family members. You know, there's hope. People hold out for that person to come back home, walk through the door. But, you know, somewhere in in people's minds, every year that goes by, I'm not saying they lose hope, but a little bit of reality has to sink in that it's less and less likely that that's going to happen. And much more likely that that person is met with foul play. Yeah. But she's spot on. Right? It's a life sentence. It is a life sentence. And, you know, you watch true crime shows where they interview victim's family members. And I don't care how many years down the road it is from when somebody went missing or or someone died. Those people are still in agony. It's just it's something that really doesn't go away. It's just you just have to live with it. The detective said there were no active lines of inquiry at that time, but the police would continue to respond to intelligence and information. In 02/2023, Victoria spoke about her parents' arrest in a podcast interview saying, I mean, you see this kind of thing happening on TV, but when it happens to you, I felt like the whole world was spinning. I just I couldn't believe what I was hearing. So my first response was, where are my mom and dad? And are they okay? Because I, of course, I know that this whole thing is ridiculous. There's absolutely no way they would hurt Steven because of the family that we have and the relationships that we have. So it was just utterly unreal. Well, she said they are a loving family. Now there have been people on the outside of the family who have thought, oh, man, that family's got it all. They love each other. Well, it turns out that was all a facade. And inside the family, it was a nightmare. But when you have Victoria saying, you know, her parents were great to Steven. We all had great relationships. Unless she was covering something up, that's a pretty strong statement. It really is. I'm still just thinking of the shock and awe of that day. Of the arrest? Yeah. Yeah. And she's kind of talking about it. She called her parents' arrest the beginning of a very long nightmare. She said she lost all her faith in the police explaining, let's face it, in a missing person's case. We all know that the police have a job to do, and, ultimately, families are going to be under scrutiny when someone goes missing. But the total lack of empathy and kindness and that guilty until proven innocent approach was unacceptable. Victoria recalled how two detectives came to her home and told her her parents had been arrested on suspicion of murder. She was asked to do an interview because the police didn't speak to her. At the time of Steven's disappearance, the interview lasted hours, and she spent the entire time worrying about her parents. She was asked repeatedly if Charles and Doris were violent, which she denied. According to Victoria, detectives were acting on a reexamination of the anonymous letter that alleged the Clarks mistreated Stephen. Makes you wonder why they didn't interview her back then. Right? She would have been in her early twenties. Why wouldn't you talk to her back then? It's it's a great question. But and I think a lot of people, me included, are probably pretty perplexed about, you know, twenty seven, twenty eight years later, reexamining this letter and, you know, all of a sudden saying, yeah, we need to go arrest these people. Based on what evidence? I mean, just because someone put in a letter that they mistreated him? And then you had a woman come forward who didn't in the beginning and say, I saw Steven near his home. Those two things together, I think, were all it took for the police to arrest his parents. And I don't know about you, but that's a pretty scary thing. It really is. I mean, he would hope that they would have to have something more credible. I don't wanna claim to be an expert on the the British system. No. But being arrested on suspicion of murder, it clearly said they were never charged. But they held them for seventeen weeks. That's a long time. And, you know, I'm trying to think about what would happen here in The US. I think if you're not charged, you're not held for that long period of time. I mean, it's it's a a matter of days maybe that they can hold you. And they'll hold me to it because, again, I'm no expert on that. But I think, you know, you can see though why Victoria would say she lost faith in the police because that would be devastating to have your elderly parents arrested for the murder of your brother, their son, 27, 20 eight years after it happened based on very little. If you thought maybe they did it, why not work the case? Where are they gonna go? They're 81 and 78. Where are they fleeing to? Yeah. They haven't gotten away in the twenty seven years that since that happened. Right. Victoria spoke about the letter saying per the Northern Echo. I mean, the letter was even addressed to the wrong police force. The name was wrong. It went to a different police force in Guysborough, which is not the police that we're dealing with. So why was it taken so seriously? I really don't know. But it has devastated our family. Finally, Victoria revealed that her parents were in the process of filing a formal complaint against the police. And I don't know how you couldn't. Yeah. You'd have to you'd have to do something. Right? I mean, you put me in jail for seventeen weeks. Yeah. I get it. It's not thirty years. But to me, anytime in that you're spending locked up when you shouldn't be Yeah. Is an hour too much, a minute too much. That's the way I would feel. I mean, wrongful incarceration. Right? But I I think, you know, as we're wrapping this thing up, obviously, it's a it's a tragedy that Steven disappeared, and I'm we don't know what happened to him. But then it's like you have this other tragedy that happened to his family on top of them grieving for their missing loved ones. Right. Getting arrested, being accused of murdering your own son based on what appears to be something someone wrote in a letter. Yeah. And I think that's the part that I keep coming back to because it's the part that's so shocking. And what did they do with the person that wrote the letter? Well, it sounds to me as though when they finally figured out who it was and they talked to them, it they must have been able to clear something up because they pretty much immediately released them. Yeah. So maybe the letter didn't mean exactly what they thought, or I I don't know. Or maybe the person said, oh, I wrote that as a hoax. Sorry. Well, but then you would think you might do something be able to do something to them. Yeah. And and maybe they did, and it just wasn't publicized. But think about this. You know, I get upset with you, which very rarely happens, but you piss me off. And I sit down and I write a letter saying that you've done something horrible. Yeah. And I mail that letter to the police department where you live. Mhmm. And based on that, you're arrested. I mean, that's such a scary thought. And you said you would never do that again. Yeah. I won't. The first time, I think you learned your lesson, but the second time would just be cruel. Yeah. Exactly. But it is a scary thought. Right? That Yeah. That people can be arrested even in The United States. I'm not saying this is just a, you know, a UK thing. Even in The United States, you could be arrested for things based on very little. You can even be charged with things based on what I would consider to be pretty flimsy evidence. Yeah. But for you, you know, enough truth of me to sprinkle some of that in. Exactly. To make it like, well, maybe. Even though it would be. But I might even be able to, you know, call up one of your neighbors and say, hey. Can you just do me a favor and say that you saw Gibby, you know, doing this outside of his home? And They'd be like, heck yeah. We wanna get rid of that guy. Again, I don't know what the intentions were of the letter writer. Maybe they were innocent intentions. Maybe they thought they saw something, and they just wanted to point it out to police, and police took it the wrong way. I I don't know. Yeah. What I do know is that, you know, it's been over thirty years since Steven Clark went missing. At the time of his disappearance, Steven was described as six three with a medium build. He had blue eyes, dark brown hair. He was last seen wearing a maroon crew neck jumper, a navy blue parka with a fur hood, blue jeans, and gray sneakers. You can provide information to the Cleveland Police via an online portal or call Crime Stoppers at 0800555111. If you have information about Steven Clark, you can submit a tip through the Cleveland Police section of the major incident portal online or submit a tip to crime stoppers at w w w dot crime stoppers dash u k dot org. I mean, it's a real mystery, you know, what happened to him, which, let's face it, all of our unsolved cases are mysterious at the end of the day. They are. I think what is different about this case is how the victim's family was treated. You know, that's something that you don't see all that often. Definitely a shocker. No. They're always looked at. I mean, police wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't look at, you know, the family, a significant other, boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife, that sort of thing. I'm sure they look back and say, boy, we should've handled that probably differently. Well and they definitely will if they end up having to cough up a bunch of money in a settlement. Yeah. There might be some changes made and, some people who lose their jobs Yeah. It could be. Over something like that. But, I don't know. That's it for our case on the disappearance of Steven Clark. We got some voice mails, Gibbs. You wanna check those out? Let's see them. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Liz from Massachusetts. I just wanted to call in and let you guys know how much I love TCAT and Unsolved. Those two podcasts are the only ones that I listen to religiously. There's no other podcast like yours. I can't say I'm team anybody, but I do love Gibby. He seems so sweet. And you know what, Gibby? Don't worry about mispronouncing words because my sister-in-law does it all the time. Here's an example for you. We went out to dinner and had polenta. And when my mother-in-law asked how our dinner was, my sister-in-law said the placenta was delicious. Another Sorry. I for some reason, the voice mail cut off. And the reason why it sounded so good is because she recorded it and sent it through an email. Oh, yeah. It sounds really good. Yeah. Yeah. It always sounds better when people record them and send them in through an email. But for some reason, all of a sudden, it cut off. But I I wanted to play it because I thought that was so funny. I can relate. And it's something that, that that you might say. Yes. I just like I like the way she said, and don't worry, Gibby. I know. You get the sympathy vote. Yeah. She she felt bad for you. Hey, guys. I'm sitting here listening to your three parts thing on the Zodiac killer, and you were speaking about genetic genealogy. And I'm a family historian by passion and a true crime activist by, you know, chance, I guess. And something that I learned for genetic genealogy is second cousins will match a % of the time. But out of a hundred people, by the time you get to your sixth cousin, out of a hundred, only six of them will match. So while genetic genealogy is a great resource, it may not always lead us to who we think it will. Anyway, I love your show. I'm team anybody who keeps these unsolved cases out there and is, you know, helping try to give your family closure. Stay safe. Keep your head on a swivel, and keep your own tight. Take care. Bye. Alright. Well, that was some great information. I did not know that. Yeah. But she's right. It's a great tool. But like any tool, there there's limitations to everything. What's that old famous funny saying? Was it in, the movie, you know, when they did Shake and Bake, or was it in the office where they're, like, something a % of the time, a % of the time? 65% of the time, it works every time. Yeah. Exactly. And it was neither one of those movies. It was Anchorman. Anchorman. That's what it was. I couldn't remember. When he was putting on Sex Panther. Oh, yeah. That's right. Yeah. It smelled so horrible. Yeah. Alright. But, you made me laugh just thinking about that movie because that part cracks me up. A good movie. Alright, buddy. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time unsolved. So for Mike And Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Pluto TV is the place for movie fans like me. And TV fans like me. They've got something for everyone, and it's totally free. You can binge laugh laugh out loud sitcoms like Frasier. And rewatch cult classics like Higher Learning. Oh. Whether you're in the mood to solve a little crime before bedtime with MCIS or Tracker. Or curl up with a surefire hit like Forrest Gump. Run, Forrest. Pluto TV has thousands of movies and shows, all for free. Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.