How Do We Build a Better Crypto Marketplace? | Omid Malekan (Part 2)

Transcript

This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the James Altiger Show. Today on the James Altiger Show. There's frames in every part of society. Right? We live in a socially constructed reality, meaning that there's the objective world that exists. Right? That is like stones, air, h two o. Right? But then there is a world that is layered on top of it, of social agreement. So the fact that money is valuable is a frame. A lot of our relationships are built on frames. Like, you know, the dreaded friend zone. Right? Is it just a frame that you're more of a friend than a lover? And a lot of times, frames don't even just work in, like, context of conversation. They're like the roles that people bestow upon you. Any type of coronation process is to like, have you ever been to a graduation? Like, a whole graduation is a frame that what we're doing is really special. But what you really did was go to college, you f**ked off for 4 years, and you studied something and got some grades, but they make it seem Don't get me started on this. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. The podcast could be in a really different direction for 3 hours. And and we'll get more into what Frame Control is and and how you structure this book, which I find very interesting from a writing point of view, a a writing of self help's point of view, but just in that specific example and and the friend zone example. So the friend zone, I'm very familiar with. I've been I've lived inside the friend zone most of my life. So all of these are situations where there's no real rules, and there's kind of, like, fictional man made rules. There's sort of, like, you know, status hierarchies. Like, oh, in a in a workplace, someone who's a VP, a vice president of the corporation might be have higher status than an assistant vice president. But you go outside the corporation, there's no hierarchy. Mhmm. So you're kind of taking advantage of shifting hierarchies depending on context as well. Most definitely. And just cultivating awareness of somebody can just feel more powerful than they are because they have a a badge. Right? Like everybody, you know, a mall cop has a badge, and he's meant to look as similar to a cop as possible even though he doesn't really have authority over you in the situation. He can't touch you. None of that. But he you feel like he has authority. And so one of the things that Brendan and I really wanted to lay out is number 1, looking for what are you buying into. Right? A lot of times when we give someone power over us, there's usually a reason. Right? Maybe it's a very pretty person. Maybe it's a very tall person, and we feel ourselves suffocating in a certain way. And And and why are we supplicating? Because because we grew up thinking, oh, I for the past 1,000 occurrences, tall people have intimidated me, or or someone who looks better than me has intimidated me, or someone who has a higher who has more money has intimidated me. And so we start to to react in these old ways instead of, kind of being aware. Like, oh, I'm reacting in an old way, and this is an opportunity to practice what Bill's saying about frame control. Exactly. Exactly. What we're teaching you is kind of to cultivate an awareness within conversations to what is actually happening. I got Bill Petit on the podcast to talk about his new book cowritten with Brendan Lemmon called the Power Bible. But, also, we're gonna talk about Bill, I almost didn't wanna do I kinda didn't wanna do this podcast, actually, and I'll I'll tell you why. This I feel like as opposed to all the BS self help books I read all the time or, you know, people push on me all the time, This you're you're describing, like, a real superpower here. Like, I almost wanna keep these techniques for myself and not tell anybody. Like, I was sitting next to Robin while I was reading the book, I was gonna say to her at different points. Oh, see. Here's what Bill says in the Power Bible about, what you should do when you're in arguing with a spouse. I'm like, no. I better not tell her this well because I'm gonna use this technique. It it 100% comes back to bite you where, like, I've been in fights with, girlfriends, and they've been like, are you using one of your frame control tactics right now? I'm like, oh, man. I knew I shouldn't have sent that essay I wrote. Well well, and and also the other but I'm so excited also to to talk to you about this because I recognize first off, thank you for mentioning me several times in the book, and I have some take on at least one of those, stories that you mentioned. But, so many so much of this, I recognize from conversations you and I have had since, what, 2015, where I actually made specific use of your tactics. And we'll describe what this book is about in a second, but we'll just I I specifically made use of tag we've we've spoken hundreds of hours on the phone about business situations, relationship situations, social situations, other types of sales, negotiations, everything. And you were always thinking, like, you know, if you say this, this person's gonna probably say either this, this, this, and then you have to say this, this. It's almost like a chess game, and you were always so dead on right. And so now I see it all in this come together in this book form, and I know these techniques work. So so I just wanna describe let me describe I know you haven't been speaking. Let me describe at a 10,000 foot level what this book is about, and you could, correct me along the way. So so it's called the power bible, but it's really about what you call frame control. And the idea is is that in mid to high stakes situations, like, let's say, you're asking your boss for a raise or you're in an argument with a loved one or, you're in a a sales pitch or an an important negotiation or even if you're at a party, or, you know, trying to meet someone in a bar, one person has the frame, and the other people usually don't. And the person with the frame has so many opportunities to succeed in those situations that, you know, high stakes turn into high reward. Most definitely. Like, it's it's really like determining the rules that everybody else plays with within conversation. And we so tacitly buy into other people's frames, and we don't know the implication. Right? Like, when we attribute the amount of deaths that Stalin caused, he didn't personally do those things, but he manifested the power and the frame within himself to make people kill their family and kin. And that's an extreme example, but you have to remember, like, a guy like Stalin was a peasant, and he grew up to be the most powerful man in the world through understanding some of these tactics. And if people around him had understood some of these things that he was doing, they might have put up walls, they might not have been as easy to buy in. And that's an extreme example, but we have these in happen all the time. Well and and and in that example specifically, it almost seems like Machiavellian. And there there is components of this book that feel that way, but you address that as well. You know, you have, and we'll get to this later. You have sections on, like, frame addiction or, you know, using this for wrong purposes probably won't work out for you the way you think. But, you know, you give this one example what frame control is, and it's not a very it is a real world example, but it's not happening. It happens every day. So I wanna take this example and because it's a perfect example of of what you mean, but then describe some other examples. So you give an example where, let's say, you and Brandon just watched just witnessed a murder. And, the police come afterwards and ask you what happened, and you say, well, that guy just killed that other guy. Person a just killed person b. And that's what you say. And then Brendan says, well, person a was in self defending was defending himself, so had to kill person b. So whoever so this is a great example where whoever has the stronger frame, you or Brendan, in front of the cop, that's high stakes in that someone's life is either gonna like, person a is either gonna go to jail for the rest of his life or is gonna be a free man. So that's the importance of frame control. Only one of you can have the frame in that situation. The cops only gonna believe 1 of you, say, and, you know, in in an extreme case. And the consequences of who has the frame is life changing for person a. And so so the same thing might happen though if someone's asking for, let's say, just a $1,000 raise from their boss. They either have the frame and no no boss wants to give, you know, an employee in in in their corporation, a raise. So either the employee has good frame and is able to easily get the raise, or the boss has the frame and is easily able to not give the employee a raise, and the employee won't feel good about it. So what's another example, say, of, like, everyday situations? I mean, a lot of our relationships are built on frames. Right? Like, a lot of, like, you know, the dreaded friend zone. Right? Is it just a frame that you're more of a friend than a lover? And a lot of times, frames don't even just work in the, like, context of conversation. They're like the roles that people bestow upon you. So there like, there's frames in every part of society. Right? We live in a socially constructed reality, meaning that there's the objective world that exists. Right? That is like stones, air, H2O. Right? But then there is a world that is layered on top of it, of social agreement. So the fact that money is valuable is a frame, and it's a frame there's a reason why there's a symbolic process for money being valuable because it gives the frame of importance to money, the sacredness of money. That is the reason why it says, in god we trust on money. So it's bestowed with this kind of big importance, this big procession. No real no one really knows how money is made. It comes from all these different Byzantine ways. There's these weird stamps in it, and that lets you know that it is something of value. Any type of coronation process is to have you ever been to graduation? Like, a whole graduation is a frame that what we're doing is really special, but what you really did was go to college, you f**ked off for 4 years, and you studied something and got some grades, but they make it seem get me started on this. This. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. The podcast could veer in a completely different direction for 3 hours. But it it is they do all of these things to make it symbolically seem important, and the more you recognize and one of the first things that you asked me to do the first time we hung out, the first time I did this podcast was you said I should go up and ask whether I could get something for cheaper. And so when I left, I just walked into CVS. It's like, hey, can I get this for a little bit less? And the guy just found a coupon for the thing and get got me a discount. Right. Because because, and and we'll get more into what frame control is and and how you structure this book, which is which I find very interesting from a writing point of view, a writing of self help's point of view. But just in that specific example and and the friend zone example. So the friend zone, I'm very familiar with. I've been I've lived inside the friend zone most of my life. And you describe it in this book as, like, what an example of a covert contract. So it's basically the pro the let's say it's a guy and a girl. The guy in the friend zone has this covert contract, and maybe the woman is aware or not aware of it, but he thinks if he's just nice and friendly and so on, the the contract is supposedly that eventually it will it will turn romantic. And the the the woman may or may not be aware of this covert contract. And your your point is for a lot a lot of the things that we just sort of assume and live by are kind of rule man made rules of society or parents or whatever status hierarchy you belong to. And they're not real rules, but then you use this example in the store. So I said to you, go into any store. Go into, like, a deli. Order a coffee. And then when he charged you a dollar, say, hey. Can I have 10% off? Can I pay 90¢? And see what they say. And your point there was is that we normally have a contract that in a store, if someone says, oh, the price of this coffee is a dollar. We hand over a dollar. But your point is is that a lot of these rules, even rules that we think are really, like, just carved in stone, are very bendable. You're not saying break the rules, but you're saying you can use frame to bend as far as possible in these rules. And when there's gray areas, like in a deli as opposed to, let's say I don't know where where it might not be bendable. Like, in a bookstore, you can't really in Barnes and Noble, you can't negotiate the price of a book. But in a deli, you might be able to negotiate the price. It might be bendable or it might be a little bit more there's no hard and fast rules about pricing. Whoever has a stronger frame can use it to their advantage to to get more items for the dollar. Most definitely. And the the key difference between the deli and Barnes and Noble is nobody in Barnes and Noble has the authority to make things cheaper because the books are set priced by publishers and, like, corporate. It's, like, beyond it's not the manager's job to make price. But when you're at the deli, usually, the person who has the authority is maybe one level up, or maybe it's just the person at the cashier owns the place. And so they have the authority in that moment to make the price malleable. And so a lot of times, the people who have the strongest frames are people who aren't present. That's why corporations have a really strong frame because they're not present. It's like spiritually passed down, and so no one there has the authority to negotiate on the price. Whereas if you're at a car lot, you have to just go and talk to the guy who the dealership's boss. And he's like, yeah. That could work, you know, and it's negotiable. Or or, you know, it it seems like things are negotiable when, it's a philosophical question. So in the deli or in any store, in any retail transaction, you know, there's a saying, the customer is always right. But that's actually a principle that's always under debate. Sometimes the customer is not always right. Sometimes you say no to the customer. And so this is always under debate between management and the customer. And you're kind of taking advantage of the fact that there's not a hard and fast answer to who is always right by using what you call frame control and the techniques of frame control, which we'll describe in a second, to to make that question go more in in your direction. So it's the same thing. So I just wanna say your background, which is, you know, since I've known you, you've been a lawyer, a dating coach, a comedian, probably other things. And every one of those and and Brendan Levin, who you co wrote this with, has been a a salesman in in many different jobs. So these are all situations that are mid to extremely high stakes where, you know, whoever where where what you're calling frame control is extremely important to see the outcome. So, like, when you're a lawyer, there's no hard and fast rule that the defense always wins or the prosecutor always wins. So you've gotta use frame control to make sure the jury is is listening to you more than the the other lawyer, the opposing side's lawyer. In sales, one side does the sale or rejects the sale. In asking someone out, one side says yes or says no. And so all of these are situations where there's no real rules, and there's kind of, like, fictional man made rules. There's sort of, like, you know, status hierarchies. Like, oh, in a in a workplace, someone who's a VP, a vice president of the corporation might be have higher status than an assistant vice president. But you go outside the corporation, there's no hierarchy. Mhmm. So you're kind of taking advantage of shifting hierarchies depending on context as well. Most definitely. And just cultivating awareness of somebody can just feel more powerful than they are because they have a a badge. Right? Like everybody, you know, mall cop has a badge, and he's meant to look as similar to a cop as possible even though he doesn't really have authority over you in the situation. He can't touch you. None of that. But he you feel like he has authority. And so one of the things that Brendan and I really wanted to lay out is number 1, looking for what are you buying into. Right? A lot of times when we give someone power over us, there's usually a reason. Right? Maybe it's a very pretty person, maybe it's a very tall person, and we feel ourselves supplicating in a certain way. And And and why are we supplicating? Because because we grew up thinking, oh, I've for the past 1,000 occurrences, tall people have intimidated me, or or someone who looks better than me has intimidated me, or someone who has a higher who has more money has intimidated me. And so we start to to react in these old ways instead of, kind of being aware. Like, oh, I'm reacting in an old way, and this is an opportunity to practice what Bill's saying about frame control. Exactly. What we're teaching you is kind of to cultivate an awareness within conversations to what is actually happening. Because there are times where you're like, I don't know why I went along with that for so long. But the thing about being in somebody else's frame and how I describe frame is the art of controlling perception. Right? That's why propaganda, all these other things is about controlling perception. And in a moment, it's very malleable and a conversation is very malleable and how you control that, how people are viewing something that you're doing is very important. And when you're talking to maybe, like, somebody taller, right, you're like, oh, like, they're looking down on me. This is kind of like a like, you you don't even pick up on, oh, I'm agreeing to things I wouldn't usually agree to. And one of the things that Jordan b Peterson says in a video that really moved me was stop saying things that make you weak. Well, first, you have to understand what are the situations that are compelling you to say things against your own self interest? Because a lot of frame control is reflexive. A lot of times we reflexively are who we are, and that's why it's so hard to change because you're, like, oh, naturally in a situation, I just defer someone to someone else's authority. And we want you to question that. Why am I deferring? What is the feeling and sensation that's going on in my body? So that you don't end up signing contracts with people metaphorically within conversation that you don't wanna cash and end up living in a prison of a life that you don't want. Yeah. You say you say in the book, and this is really important. This the one way to know that you're in you're in the control of someone else's frame is if you have to spend more time convincing them. So, like, if I say, Bill, you're a sexist racist. And you say, no. I'm not. I have friends who are this, this. I have transgender friends. I I My dad's black. So so, like, what if so, like, if you're if you find yourself just reacting and convincing someone, then chances are you have the weaker frame. And the more you say the more you try to convince them, the weaker your frame becomes. So what would you say in that case? If someone, like, makes some universal broad judgment on you that you know is not true and you wanna combat it and and maybe it's even in front of you, so it's in front of other people, so it's high stakes. What would you say? So first, I wanna make this very clear to everybody listening. The reason why convincing is a weak frame is because it is contingent on their acceptance of what you say, so it gives you them all the power. Now what you say is, look, I'm not trying to convince you, which basically takes it out of their hands. Right? You're not looking for them to basically validate what you're getting ready to say. Then you make your point, like, hey. And what I would say in that instance is, like, look, if you're labeling me this early in the conversation, you don't wanna have common ground with me, and I'm not gonna continue a conversation where someone is gonna belittle me and label me rather than interact with my ideas. So so you're you're basically labeling their labeling. Exactly. Talking about labeling and and more, but but so so one technique is to basically say, you're doing this, and it's not fair in this context. So that's that's one technique. Another one is and you talk about, humor to to deframe somebody. And, it reminds me of of the rule the first rule of improv, which is to say yes and, you know, to kind of increase the humor without creating confusion or conflict in the scene. So, you know, in this case, maybe you could say, yeah. I'm a racist and sexist, which is why, of course, you know, darker than you and, you know, whatever else you would say. I don't know. But Yeah. Well, so so when we call humor and I go into this we had, so the book actually was twice as long because we went into exact situations where we're like, this is kinda getting petty a little bit. But with humor, you it's a dangerous way to take back frame. What I call is a high risk high reward. Because whenever you're in a situation where you don't have frame, and you know this from doing stand up, is when you're bombing, it's harder to be funny. And we can bomb in conversations. We can feel like that. So and if the joke doesn't work, you actually spiral down deeper. But if it does work, you get everybody else on your side because when someone is laughing, they're basically giving a physical indicator that they are responding positively to what your ideas they're tacitly accepting it. That's why when in comedy clubs, it's the best clubs, you can't see anybody because you can't because a lot of people look to other people for approval of, like, oh, is it okay to laugh at that? That's something that a lot of people say. And the reason why they say that is because when you laugh at that, you're saying, I kinda get it. And so that's why humor is really powerful. But we also and, this part I didn't make in the book, but I put in my course was there are people, like, who are really funny who kind of we all hate because we can't be mad at them, but they're constantly insulting us. So we talk about how to basically mitigate the damage that they do in a certain environment by saying, like, hey, dude. Like, grow up. Like, I I do I get it. You're funny, but, like, we need to get work done. But I feel like in this 1 on 1 situation, I'm thinking specifically this situation where someone's trying to call you out, and, it's not in a party where, you know, you're feeling kind of awkward, and there's, like, a bigger, funnier guy who's everybody's laughing, and you're feeling off to the corner and feeling insecure. And then you try and, like, in the you even mentioned it's, like, a typical scene in the movies where someone tries to say something funny, and everyone just stares at them. They get even weaker. So it's just like you're right. That's an example of, like, high risk, high reward. Like, if you fail at it, you're you're more in the corner. But in this one on one situation, I say, Bill, you're being so blah blah blah, and and and you kinda take this improv technique or humor technique. Yeah. But or yeah, and, and and turn it into humor. I feel like that's a little easier in 1 on 1. It's easier in 1 on 1, but one of the things that you always wanna be aware of is what is the meta frame. So if you're at work and somebody says this, like, so like you have to think about what are the stakes at where you're at. Right? So if you're in a casual conversation, someone's like, you're you're like a racist. Like, yeah, man. I'm so racist. That's why it got me a black dad. Like, you know, like, then then you're it's something, like, kind of like fun. There but if you're at a job where an accusation like that is is actually serious, you have to basically meet it with basically the surroundings or the surrounding context which someone is labeling you that, with that label. So it's all about, like, you have to always understand what is the meta frame. Why is why are you there? What is the context of the situation? What is the social game being played? And, you know, a lot of times, you know, I do this in reflection, not in the moment. Right? But the more you reflect on it, the more you're like, oh, you know, this is why this was. It becomes more and more automatic. So I'm not expecting people to listen to this podcast and be like, oh, the meta frame is this, and so therefore but do insult c, you know. But when you understand, like, hey, like, you're saying this to me, like, let's say I'm at law school and someone labels just like labels me like that, I have to shut that down. Because if that gets around, then all of a sudden I'm losing out on hiring opportunities, I'm getting locked out of clubs, all of these other things. I'm getting a bad reputation. Your reputation starts at law school. So if someone calls me a racist and a misogynist, and I'm like I'm like, I'm not even gonna entertain this discussion because you you're basically saying you're not number 1, you're not listening to me. And the fact that you're labeling me so early means that you're not trying to understand me. That creates a completely different thing, and it makes them sit with it. It makes them feel like the bad guy leaving the conversations. Well and I love how as I'm I'm always gonna interrupt. I'm sorry. I I love how even with that response, you you have frame control techniques that they could then do, which is they could pull back even further and say, listen. It's important for us to you know, it's important. If you're gonna go out and be a lawyer because let's say this is happening in law school. If you're gonna go out and being lawyer, it's important for us to know kind of your philosophical beliefs about, you know, the law on these very important issues. So they're even going out further and and labeling that you're trying to avoid these important issues. Most definitely. We call it the zoom out technique, and basically what that is is when in any moment when you're arguing with somebody, you can either say they're getting lost in details, which is zooming in. Right? So if they're getting really technical, all of us have had those moment where you're talking to someone and then they start using a lot of big words within the conversation that you don't really understand. And you're like you all you have to say is, like, hey. You're losing the forest for the trees, man. Like, we need to blah blah blah. And you try to keep conversation higher level. Right? But let's say they're zooming out too much, and they're like, oh, this is like an existential thing and blah blah blah. Then you can zoom out on this and be, like, hey, like, you know, that when that person zooms out, you're, like, oh, well, actually, it does matter in the greater context. And one part of the book that we have in there is using logical fallacies both as a weapon and a shield. So, like, for instance, call me a racist and a misogynist. That's an ad hominem. You're attacking my character, not my arguments. Right? And so you're like you label it. You label, hey, that's ad hominem. You're attacking my character. You're not attacking the merit of my arguments. And what you're talking about is like, no, in your in this instance, your character matters. Right? So if, like, someone's defending Trump and or someone's attacking Trump and they're like, oh, hey, like, you know, he's a racist and misogynist. Right? And, someone's like, oh, that's ad hominem. You're not actually attacking his platform. It's like, well, if he's gonna be president of the United States, it matters whether or not that is his character. Right? So you double down on that part as kind of a shield. Yeah. So and and by the way, I feel like we haven't even started the podcast yet. Like, this is just all kind of stuff peripheral to to I mean, this is all in the book, but it's almost like we just get 6 chapters in the book. But I just wanna I wanna say too what I what what I appreciate about the book is that a lot of these self help books that I see are based on scientific research over, let's say, one aspect of life. So I'm gonna make up the name of a book. I don't even know if this is a real book or not. Let's say there's a book called The Power of Consistency. So someone might say, hey. If you do the same single routine every single day, that will make you better in life. And here's the research. Like, if you eat your meals at the same time every day, if you you'll digest better, if you meditate at the same time every day, you'll be more calm. You'll live long. So so there's that kind of self help book, which is, just very simple techniques and, research based, but but not coming from the person's experience that much. And so I find them to be not that useful for living life, living a better life. And then there's the kind of, and and they usually just focus on one thing, like, consistency as opposed to the fact that life is complicated, and sometimes you can be consistent, sometimes you can't, and so on. And then there's the kind of self help books where I feel just the advice is very surface. And then and I'm not criticizing them. Like, for instance, I think Robert Cialdini's book Influence is a great book about in very specific situations, how to put together a message that persuades people. So he uses techniques like social proof saying, hey. All your friends are doing it. Maybe you should do it. He uses techniques like authority. Hey, you know, you're this the you know, David Beckham's doing it. Works for him. You should probably do it. You know, he he uses reciprocity. Like, I gave you this, so you should, you know, reciprocate. And but it's like kind of this very simple tool chest of 6 or 7 items that do work. If you're making, like, an ad campaign or a or a copywriting campaign or an email marketing campaign, these techniques work. But what you're what I appreciate with yours, and this this is the important part, is that you don't even begin talking about how to get frame control until you discuss the personal issues personal frame, like your inner frame. Like, you have to have strong frame control over your own bad tendencies before you can even hope to have frame control in these high stakes situations. Like, if you don't respect yourself, then how are you gonna be able to possibly have any kind of frame control over a boss that is just domineering and, you know, making you feel inferior and so on. And you and the whole first, 3rd, or 4th of the book is is how to get a personal frame. So I think that's I think that's really important. I think a lot of these self help books miss that and miss the techniques for getting that. Like, it's it's great to talk about, oh, everybody could be an entrepreneur, and you just need to, like, do these, this, this, this, this. But, hey, if someone's just feeling insecure all the time or if they haven't dealt with their personal issues, they're never gonna succeed as an entrepreneur. Most definitely, and we we call the 5 pillars of inner frame within the book, and we begin with self respect. And a lot of times, I think self respect gets thrown around, but people don't understand why we respect things. We respect things because, and the way I broke it down is that, if I told you guys I went to Harvard, you guys would have some form of implicit respect for me. You'd be like, oh, wow. That's a smart guy. But if you found out the reason I attended Harvard was because my parents wrote a $15,000,000 check to purchase a new building, all of a sudden that respect vanishes. But why? I still went to the school, and the reason why is because you no longer perceive what I did as being difficult. Right? But it's not simply just doing difficult things. Right? Let's say, I see James. He's picking up trash on the side of the road, like, down in SoHo. You saw me this this morning? Yeah. Yeah. I didn't think anyone. I was in disguise. Right? And and I was like, wow. Like, you know, James is just like, you know, he's he's out there. He really cares about the community. It's really cold, and he's doing this. But then I find out James is doing this only because he was mandated by the courts. And, then I'll be like I mean, it I it's not under his own volition, so I lose I don't have as much respect for the difficulty of the action even though it's still difficult. And how we describe it is respect is garnered by doing difficult things under your own volition, and it builds more self authority. Self authority is your ability to tell yourself to do something. You've had, David Goggins and, Jocko Willink on this podcast, and, I've met both of them, and they're they are guys who have lots of self respect. They they tell themselves to do something, whether it's wake up at 3:30 in the morning, run 200 miles, they're gonna do it. But they they couldn't you can't just wake up and do that. You have to build self respect over time by constantly finding difficult things to do under your own volition, and it builds an upward cycle, but it also works in the negative. I used to be a drug addict, and when you're a drug addict, you just slide down the other way. You lose respect for yourself because doing drugs is easy, and you can't even get yourself to do the right things because you don't respect yourself enough to do those things. And it's a cycle. So let's what drug were you addicted to? So cocaine was my drug of choice. So so so let's say you go out all night, you know, at parties and you're doing cocaine or whatever. And then the next day, you're wiped out. Right? Like, you have no dopamine left, no energy left. So now suddenly, you're not doing anything with your life, so you lose even more self respect. So you go to drugs to fill that hole, and it kind of cycles. Mhmm. So I think a lot of issues of self respect or or or or all these things tend to cycle into worse unless you're actively dealing with them. Exactly. And the thing is self respect replenishes on a daily basis. So, like, let's say you wake up early, you're getting everything done. It's easier to get more stuff done when you start off the day on the right foot. Right? Brian Tracy says the, beginning of the day is the rudder of the day. But when let's say a day you woke up, it's at noon, and you're just, like, you can't get yourself to even do things you wanna do, and that's because your self respect for that day is low. And so what you have to constantly be constantly be reproving to yourself by doing difficult actions is basically carrying on this process, and a difficult action is saying no to people and sticking to it. A lot of people can say no, but sticking to that no is hard. And so part of your frame begins with building boundaries with other people, but it's very hard to enforce those boundaries when you don't respect yourself. And you that that's so it's a big part of the thing. The other thing we talk about is self acceptance, which is usually conflated with self respect. But self acceptance is basically, like, do I feel like I deserve to be here? Right? In a social what what things are coming up in your head before you go talk to somebody higher status than you? Are you, like, yeah, I should be able to talk to them because I'm me. Or are you, like, oh, they wouldn't wanna talk to me. Like, I'm not even wearing the right kind of clothes. Like So what what's a situation where you have self respect but don't have self acceptance? So somebody who is very disciplined, who is, you know, basically an Olympian or whatever, but then can't socialize with people because they're afraid of what people might think about them. So let let's take take an example. Like like, by the way, David Goggins and and Jocko Willink are great examples. Those guys have written essentially, what you can call self help books, but, again, not based on science, but based on their experiences. Jocko has has led men into war, and and and he wrote a great book, several great books. Well, my favorite among them is, right now, is Extreme ownership. Also, was it disciplined through freedom? David Goggins, wrote can't hurt me, and he's he he went from being £300 overweight, unhappy in every aspect of his life to being maybe the most disciplined ultramarathon guy on the planet. And and these are are two great examples. But yeah. So you could imagine, like, David Goggins is has so much self respect, so much knows what he wants out of life and how to grow and how to personally improve. But you could imagine him saying, I don't really wanna, get this award. You know? I'd rather be marathoning. There's other people who are out for the awards. And Yeah. Well, he well, the first time he's on Joe Rogan's podcast, he was like, I had to hype myself up for 2 hours to get in here and speak. Right? Whereas a comedian who, you know, like, who who has done nothing of that sort can walk in there and be like, yeah, you know, and talk about whatever on there. And it just, like, very they're all things for us to work on, and a lot of this stuff comes from and, is our conditioning. And we're conditioned by society, and in the in the book I got really personal, and I didn't know how people would take it. I talked about how being a black Indian guy, there's a lot of narratives that I've subconsciously taken in that have limited me in the narratives I told myself of what I was worthy for in situations, and I there were never come up with, like, oh, I'm inferior. I feel inferior in this situation. It was in the subtext of why I would do something or why I wouldn't go for something, and so what you have to do is you have to take an active role in conditioning yourself within these within these spaces, and I actually But but but I I always I'm sorry. I will I'll I'll stop. But I wanna focus on what you just said. Black Indian community. What were the narratives that were artificial narratives that were holding you back? What were, like, 5 of them? What were the narratives that were holding you back? What were, like, 5 of them? So these were the 2 biggest ones in my life that, so in Indian culture, it is very bad to have dark skin. You will never see a celebrity in India come out with dark skin from Bollywood because they hate darkness. And some of my family members would say things like, oh, you'd be so handsome if you weren't so dark. And I really internalized this, and I really thought it was impossible for me to be handsome and desirable, with dark skin. And so I had to go through and I call it going on your own advertising campaign, and I had to make up narratives of why I think I I, like, I love my skin. And you a lot of people say you can do this just once and accept yourself as if it's one moment. One moment that you'd get rid of a lifetime worth of anxiety and self loathing that you say, oh, now I accept myself. No. You have to constantly condition yourself. So I go in the mirror, and Brendan laughs about this. I get naked from the mirror and I go through each part of my body and I talk about how I love that part of myself, but I also get really crazy into narrative. I'm like, I love my skin because it's like chocolate. I got the same skin tone as Michael Jordan. You know, like, my dad has this, and I get really into the storytelling of that because all advertising is, all these conditioned frames are just stories that we bought into. And so you have to take time to build up your own story, your own advertising campaign, your own movie within those moments. And so I did that, and then another thing was with height. So I'm 59. And in college, I was seeing a girl, and she was like, well, you're just a little bit too short. And until that point, I thought my height was fine. I loved it. I fit in every chair. I it was great. Planes are no problem. Planes were no problem. 1st class, I don't need it. You know, I had space in coach. Let's not go crazy. Yeah. And, but then, she then when she said that the whole world grew, like, 8 inches, and I was like, oh my gosh. I I felt so inferior. So then I went through the process, and I was like, the average height of a Navy SEAL is 5 foot 9. I had Napoleon crowned him self, you know. Like, I I built up a whole narrative around that thing and appreciating myself and not diminishing anybody else. A lot of people try to build up their frame by diminishing. You'll see this with a lot of racist groups. They'll be like, oh, yeah. I'm so great because others are bad. It's like, no. You just wanna learn how to appreciate yourself and build that context of appreciation for the parts of yourself. Because here's the thing, is we don't accept ourselves or not accept ourselves. We don't accept parts of ourselves. And so what you have to do is you have to work on accepting those parts of yourselves and what I call your immutable characteristics. The things that are fundamental to who you are, where you're from. You're never gonna be from anywhere else. You're gonna be from where you're from, your your race, other things like that, and really practice those things because those are with you for life. Now the mutable characteristics, things that you feel shame for like, oh, I don't feel like, you know, I'm overweight and I don't like it. Change it. Yeah. It's it's less work to basically just go to the gym and change that than to do the mental gymnastics of trying to accept something that you know you can change. Right. So so I wanna unpack this a little bit. So and and by the way, in terms of building your inner frame, which is absolutely critical to frame control in every other sense and and and it's the key to the the rest of this book, you say there are there are there are 5 pillars that, house your inner frame, respect, acceptance, conditioning, outcome independent, and context. We'll talk a little about each. But with with respect, there's 2 things I noticed. 1 is, the same techniques you used to or the same ways you respect other people, you have to use for yourself as well. So you like you said, you wouldn't respect me if you thought, I was being I've committed a crime. I was being court ordered to clean up the community. You would have less respect. So and that leads you to say you respect people who are doing difficult things of their own volition. That means you have to do to have self respect, you have to do things of your own volition. And then this is related. You also mentioned how there are some things that you you have to recognize and be self aware that some things you can't change and and and some things that you can. The importance of that is you don't wanna be delusional. So for instance, you don't wanna say, well, you know, it doesn't matter that I'm 59. If I want to, I could play in the NBA. Mhmm. That would be delusional. Instead, you have to find you know, you can't change your height, so you have to find the the the you have to find and constantly remind yourself and reprogram yourself to to to be aware that 59 is not only good, but there could be great advantages being 59 versus 7 foot 2 or whatever. So so and then and then that allows you to say, oh, but I also wake up at noon every day. I could maybe improve by waking up at 9 AM and going to the gym and improving my looks in ways that I can control or improving my health in ways that I can control and and so on. And that's a a difficult thing of your own volition. So I think those are 2 the the the using the same techniques that you use to respect others on yourself is important, and then clearly defining what's immutable, unchangeable, and the things that are changeable and focusing on those to avoid being delusional is important. Exactly. And what you have to understand is that you will never be society's ideal. No matter who you think is society's ideal, they're not. And we have this kind of avatar of what we imagine society wants us to be, but it is a fiction, and it is not real. And so when you we tend to buy into other people's, standards a lot, and when we try to buy into those standards of that society's place on what you need to be, you're not creating your own standards. And that's a big part of self acceptance is living up to your own standards. You have to take the time and be like, what is the standard for the character that I'm trying to construct? Because a person who's trying to be a comedian is gonna use their time a lot differently than a person who's trying to be a doctor. So you have to have a good way of evaluating how to respect yourself and stuff like that, but you don't wanna take what I call the template frames of society where it's like go to this school, blah blah blah, be this, be that, because you're never gonna be those things. And honestly Yeah. This is a great point. Like, so so what are like there's there's what school did you go to? There's what job do you have? There's how much money do you have? There's how attractive you or your spouse are. There's, I don't I don't know. There's probably other ones depending on the context, but those are, like, some some of the big ones. There's also how fancy are your possessions, but that's related to how much money you have. That's signaling how much money you have. And then what's really important here, though, is how what what questions do you ask yourself to start building your own set of unique values, independent society that you could then use as the gauge to build your self respect? So when, this what actually I did whenever I was in Chicago and I did my TED talk was I asked myself, what would someone who's trying to be a famous stand up comedian do? And so I I had a vision of what I wanted to be, and then I committed to the character that was going to basically make that happen. And I think it's really important that you kind of because a lot of people I would just say get started. Because a lot a lot of times, sometimes you can be so low that you you can't even get an authentic image of what you want because even our authentic image of what we think we want is populated by societies. Like, I remember in law school, I wanted to transfer to go to Harvard so I could be an academic and a lecturer at Harvard. That was not actually what I wanted. I did not find the law that intellectually fascinating. I just wanted the aesthetic of somebody who was a professor, and in ways I do that, I coach people on frame, but it was so perverted by where I was at that I was coming up with all these things I didn't think I actually wanted. So what I'd say is actually just begin your journey and start moving forward before you start get like, being, like, what do I want? Because a lot of times people try to say what their life is gonna be at the beginning. It's, like, dude, you don't even know. Just start gaining a skill. Get some respect and live honestly for a bit. This is really important. I think I think a lot of, self help and motivational stuff misses this. And and I've written about this as well. You can't think yourself into success. You can't think yourself into figuring what you like, basically, you can't figure what you want, which implies thinking instead of doing. You can only try lots of things. Like you say, try to move forward in various different ways. And if something kind of tugs at you and you enjoy it, you can say, okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna double down on this direction, not go as far in this direction. So you could say maybe you were in law school because you were you wanted to be a lawyer, and you thought that was the acceptable thing. And then you started doing, for instance, stand up or or writing or coaching, and you felt like, oh, this is giving me more feedback that I'm enjoying. I'm enjoying. This just feels good. And you could start to double down on it, and that's where you start building your your metric or hierarchy for success. Exactly. Because a lot of times what we want is, is really a phantom, and, like, things become more and more complex, like, the deeper we go into things. And I think a lot of times, there's a lot of opportunities, like, left on the table that we don't the beginning of this year, I was trying to sell a TV show, had gone out to France, all this stuff, trying to get on SiriusXM, and meanwhile, I had so many people who were coming to me trying to learn about Frame. And so, like, the thing is if I had asked myself even at the beginning of the year, what does this ideal year look like? It was, oh, getting my show, Brown Guys picked up, right, by Lionsgate or whatever, whoever we're speaking to. And but I made this I wrote this book, which has been a deeply beautiful journey, and it's been the thing that I've been most excited about my life. And so I think a lot of times people overemphasize what they think about at the beginning of their journey. And one of the things I would tell people to do is ask yourself in every moment, how do I make this a little bit better of a decision? I'm going to tell you it's the easiest way to hack self respect because a lot of times we start off the day, we don't have that much authority over ourselves, but we can make things a little bit better, a little bit better. And by conditioning your mind to always look to make things a little bit better, you'll you'll take an opportunity a lot farther. Right? Like, if you're, like, oh, you're in line and there is a, there's a girl that you you think is attractive. How do I make this moment a little bit better? Oh, maybe I'll say, hey, I just thought you're pretty. And then all of a sudden, that's your wife, which actually happened to my dad. That's how my mom and dad had. Yeah. So they met on a tour bus. And said So they were on a tour bus in London, and he, basically was talking about how, he just basically started talking to my mom, and we ended up like, that we ended up with me. Have you seen you must see these, like, videos. They're like they go viral all the time where a guy will will just go up to, like, 20 different girls and, like, say, hey. Can I just hold your hand for a second? And she's like, what? And some of them end up holding his hand. And, you know, it's, it it it works. Like, if you kinda break out of the normal rule set, and and you're friendly and and open about it and Exactly. Well, here's the thing is one of the things that I have really discovered is cynicism is pretending like you know how something is going to go before you try it. And so many people, you know, they're listening to this and they're like, yeah, but I don't know if it works. And what cynicism does is is is that it basically traps you in a prison, that's delusional. You don't know how things are gonna go, and you don't know how far things are gonna go, and so it gives you an excuse not to try. And I really think that a lot of people that I've seen become really good at things are just opt just like not even optimistic. Just like, hey. They trust that the universe thank you. They trust that the universe can basically is they can't predict things, and that's exactly the case. I mean, you've lived such a storied life, from basically just taking risk and trying things out, like, you know, and that's the beauty of things. And it hasn't always been pleasant. Like, it's like you say. Sometimes you think you want things, because because you're expected to want them. Mhmm. But, like like, for instance, just a simple example. But 2 years ago, I was pitching, what I still think is a really great idea for a TV show. A TV network bought it and then bought the idea. And then a change in management, kind of, you know, changed how they viewed the idea. And and and I had to decide, do I wanna keep pitching the exact same idea? And I realized, no. Because once I had done all the pitches I knew it was a good idea. But once I had done all the pitches and once the network had acquired the idea, I realized, oh my gosh. This is gonna be an enormous amount of work, and it's gonna be 2 years before it even goes on the air. And I realized the only reason I wanted that particular show was to have other opportunities that I thought I couldn't get on my own. I didn't even wanna do that particular idea because of all the amount of work that that would require. And so really asking like, asking yourself these questions, what do I want? What what's important to me? And then trying to find easy ways to experiment if this is something, that really is what you want and is important to you. This helps you learn to say no and yes to the things that help you build self respect. So you can start to now move in the direction of self respect because now you know what hierarchy you're on. Exactly. And a big problem that a lot of people have with frame control and, like, my experience as a dating coach is too many people try to get they don't number 1, they don't have enough experience to basically be able to predict things. So whenever we're talking about, like, oh, I was able that's because I had, like, experience in these various things with people, but a lot of people who have no experience think they can predict everything that's going to happen. And that's just, like, largely not the case. And what you're better off doing rather than trying to predict everything is really commit hard to you who you are in that moment and kind of be really present so you can get the most out of that situation. Yeah. I think, like, I had a situation several years ago, a relationship situation that wasn't working out, and I didn't really have confidence in my inner frame in this relationship. Like, I was out framed. And so I would call you, and you would say, okay. Here's what this person is trying to do. Label it, and then do this. And this is what is gonna happen next, and this is what's gonna happen next, and this is what's gonna happen next, right down to when and who would be the first person to shed tears. And you were, like, dead on, like, in every way because and I and I think it was really important for me. It was a big step for me, at least on the relationship side. I had always felt insecure and, on that side, and it was really important for me to build kind of an inner frame of what do I really want, what's really important to me as opposed to what's important to society or how people see me or to my friends or whatever. Like, what's important to me? And that that was that's a really important, question. But now okay. So we've been talking about respect. We've been talking about acceptance. What's conditioning? So conditioning is, basically the process in which we get some basically, our name is conditioned into us by repeated process of being, like, your name is James. Your name is James. Right? We didn't pick our name. And conditioning is something that happens basically all the time through social conditioning. Right? We're conditioned that, you know, the president is somebody to be respected, that, Harvard is a good school. And so a lot of our reference from the rule the world is basically conditioned into us, haphazardly and by messages from our parents, television, etcetera. And what we really push for is what we call auto suggestion or self conditioning, where you choose your own conditioning. And particularly, Jocko, I base I listen to Jocko's discipline equals freedom field manual, which is a compilation of short poems all the time to basically give me the mindset of somebody who is a commando, who survived through war because I want those ideas populating my mind, and the longer you listen to the same simple message see a lot of people who are in self help, they're like, oh, read a 100 different books, read a different book a day. No. Read one have one thing that you're reading all the time that's really simple so that it makes the thoughts reflexive. So the longer we're listening to something, the more it gets into our bones. That's why you go to boot camp. You go to boot camp to get conditioned into basically a space where you're going to be able to take a large amount of stress. So what we talk about is listening to something over and over again, not just reading it, because reading is a newer innovation. Right? It's very likely that 3 generations back, your your great grandparents didn't know how to read. It's a new thing in the brain. It doesn't hit that same visceral component when primates listen to vocal commands. So when somebody is telling us what to do, those voices really echo within our mind, and it's about basically filling in the gaps that our parents left for us by understanding look. Everybody's upbringing was imperfect in some way. Now it's up to us to find things to fill in those gaps and do them over and over again because the younger we hear a message, the longer it takes to unlearn that message. You know, it's so interesting what you say about listening because I've when I was reading that that in the book, I've I realized I've never listened to an audiobook. I love reading. I love reading books, but you're right. Maybe if I I should at least try listening to one of my favorite books as an audiobook just to see if it affects me in a different way. Because you're right. It's more primal, the the the the audio component than reading a bunch of strange characters on a screen or a page or whatever. And it it makes me even think about podcasting. Like, I, you know, I listen to my own podcast sometimes, but it's only in the past 2 months out of 6 years of podcast that I've been doing podcast that I've actually started listening to podcast, and I love them. Like, I I go to when I go to the gym, I listen to podcast. That's that's how I survive the gym. So it's it's right. It's valuable to to listen to stuff. And, alright. We'll talk more about conditioning in a second. I think outcome independent, which is, the the 4th pillar of your building your inner frame, this is extremely important. This is basically the the process versus, you know, enjoying the process or or or or doing things where you enjoy the process over more important than the outcome is really important. Most definitely. So many times what ends up happening when we get into a high stakes environment, we become what's called outcome dependent, meaning that we need a particular outcome. And when we need a particular outcome, all of a sudden, we have a very weak frame. James, you have a lot of billionaire friends. They don't need anything from you, so they have a very strong frame of reality because they don't need anything. And they they just treat me like s**t as a result. And but, like, the thing is is if you can I was at 1 billionaire friend that didn't treat me like well, actually, none of them treat me anything? I'm 0. I've interviewed 20 billionaires on this podcast. If I I actually, I've had good interactions afterwards with one of them, so that's that's fine. Yeah. And a large reason for that is they just have strong outcome independence. They don't need anything. The guys, a lot of times in dating coaching, like, people be like, you know, don't look needy. When you look needy, you look outcome dependent, which is unattractive. And so how come how you become outcome independent is, number 1, when you want an opportunity, you think about how it's actually a bad opportunity for you. And that's counterintuitive, but what it makes you do is it makes you devalue the experience so you don't end up compromising on your values, which everybody's like, oh, I wouldn't do that. When you get in a high stakes situation, a moment that you need to win, you will feel that you will feel that impulse. So understand that. Another thing that I, you gave me, like, advice about when I was trading crypto, and I had way too much money in the market. And I was like, I'm not sleeping at night. And you're like, if you're not sleeping at night, you have too much in the market. And there was no amount of mental gymnastics I could do to make that not true. Right? And that was a sizable amount. So what we recommend is if there is a point where you reach where you're too invested in the outcome, you need to actually divest. You cannot you cannot basically say, like, oh, this doesn't really matter in the larger scheme of things. And what we really recommend is switching from a, a finite game concept of thinking to an infinite game concept of thinking. A finite game is we won or lost a football game. An infinite game is you look at the your whole life as a massive movie, and that these wins and losses are just to move the the game forward. Right? Right. And so then, like, if you, win or lose a football game or, you know, some contest or some promotion or whatever, it kinda feels bad at first. But, again, looking at it in this broader context, what what what I've tend to experience is that in every negative, event, there's usually some opportunity. Because a negative event might mean that opportunities are closed off in areas that you thought you wanted to succeed in. So given that now you don't you you what that means is you now have extra time because opportunities were just closed off from you. You now have extra time to pursue other opportunities that might be related or you might use this skill set, and you'll find that there's actually more opportunities because you were losing here. Now there's an opportunity to win over here, you know, in this other area. So, like, again, I mentioned that TV show. I was very alcamore that I just wanted to have somebody validate. This is a TV show. We're gonna make it. We're gonna put it on the air. But when I but but I wasn't very process oriented until I realized, oh, this having this TV show succeed might be very bad for me. It might mean thousands of hours of work with no actual upside at the end. Like, that was the risk I was taking. And so I realized I wasn't being very process oriented. I was only outcome oriented. I only wanted the kind of the superficial benefits of having that particular TV show, and I wasn't looking at the process. And so it was easier to say, okay. Well, I don't have to put in those thousands of hours. Maybe I could pitch a different show or a different idea that takes tens of hours or hundreds of hours rather than 2 or 3 years of my life. And so, I think it's it it's so important. And, also, again, it's like what you're saying about setting boundaries. I know now what I'm gonna say no to. I'm gonna say no to things where the process is gonna require full devotion to me in only one area of my life. I like to have things going on in many areas of my life. And and, you know, not, you know, you say no when it's when I think that there's I'm justifying an outcome for reasons that have nothing to do with the outcome. Most definitely. And one of the things that really resonated with me that I heard from a a guy named Owen Cook, where it was that in every moment, you wanna be able to give a 100% of your intent but be free from the outcome. And he said that's the secret to life, and I honestly really feel that's the case. Because a lot of time when we're outcome dependent, we won't even try that hard. Because sometimes we shield ourselves from really giving our full effort because we're, like, what if I give it my all and I fail? Right? What if I actually try really hard and I find out frankly I wasn't good enough or wasn't for me? And when you're able to really master this, and it's a skill, it's not just something like, hey. Yeah. Learn this once. You have to practice 100% of my intent free from outcome. You know, what what would someone who's what would someone who's really trying to be famous or really trying to be entrepreneur do? What are the ridiculous things? We our friendship is because I shot you a a a message on Quora, you know, and I was, like, hey. Like, you know, I'd love to have you on my podcast. Right? Right. Which is, by the way, very simple thing to do. Yeah. So and and you offered value. And yeah. But at the time, it felt so ridiculous. Like, I I remember having listened to your, your audiobook a few years ago. You're a best selling author on the board of all these companies. And but it was just like, look. I'm just gonna a 100% of my intent free from outcome. Like, just we will cancel out so many opportunities for ourselves by not being free from the outcome. So just give it your all, and then if your all wasn't enough, then it's about who you became. Right? Because it's not what you get. It's who you become. You know, it's it's it's so important because you everybody starts off thinking, oh, I wanna be a famous this or this or this. And then I like like David Goggins is a great example. He didn't set off saying, I'm gonna win a bunch of marathons or else it's worthless. I sort of feel like he goes into a marathon not caring if he wins or loses, but if he hurts a lot. Like, I feel like if he's in a lot of pain during a marathon, he views that as a success whether he won or not. Like, it's, again, doing difficult things of his own volition. He's he's made that entire concept his process. Yeah. Well, he's he's he's focused on what I think it builds us the most happiness is character cultivation. Right? And that was shown in his last race that he ran. It was a 240 mile race. He was hospitalized at a mile a 100 and a 120, left the hospital next day, finished the race. No I mean, doesn't get real credit for it because it's, like, the race was already over, but that's the kind of guy. He's his character means more than any kind of social approval, And that's what you really want. You wanna be somebody that you yourself admire. And when you can cultivate that aesthetic for yourself, having a frame is intuitive. And one of the reasons why having a strong inner frame is so important is you can't deliver those lines later on if you don't if you don't really believe in yourself. They they will sound like a whisper or they they just your voice will crack or they won't have the real weight or you won't be able to stick to those decisions. So it is really powerful when you really resurrect and look at yourself honestly and and pull up those demons and get to your core of what's actually bothering you and then coming up with a solution that we mentioned many in the book on how to fix those problems. So so this is this is all, like, we've we've spent a lot of time talking about the inner frame because, I do think if you've kind of mastered this inner frame and by the way, it's not a matter of just asking these questions, like, where are your boundaries? What do you really care? You really have to do trial and error. And like like you said and you you kinda have to like, it took me a long time to realize that when something really bad or negative happens in my life, it usually means there's a huge outcome. Like, that's an important part of my frame. It's how I deal with negative situations, and I've had really painful negative situations in my life. And finally, I've kind of come the other side to realize this. But a lot of these things you build up over the time, but some you can improve in bits and bits every single day, like, you know, the self respect, what do you what do you do with by looking at yourself in the mirror and even making fun of yourself. By the way, the humor of making fun of the different parts or humorously saying why you you like these different parts of yourself, you say later in the book. That's how you, you know, kind of deframe someone or or or or or or, defend yourself against a frame attack when someone's trying to establish frame over you. So it's almost like, on a personal level, it's like your your weaker self is trying to out frame the self you wanna become. So you use these defense techniques to fight your your the weaker version of yourself. Most definitely. And so, like, one of the things I think it's very important to make fun of yourself once once you you've gone through this process of appreciating yourself because you want to also hear the counternarrative. If you never listen to the counternarrative, you're you basically self delude because in anything that's an advantage for us is is is a disadvantage. And you wanna be aware of that so it can't be used against you so you're not caught off guard when someone's trying to attack your character. You're like, oh, yeah. I I make fun of myself all the time. I have a lot of resiliency here, and I have an immune system in this capacity. So let let me ask you a question. Like, let's say you're working with someone on building their inner frame, and you say, well, what do you what do you what what do you wanna do in your life? And they say, I wanna have impact, which I feel is kinda like a meaningless answer. Like, a lot of young people say that, oh, I wanna do things that have impact. Like, what would you what would you say to that person? Well, I'd be like, do you well, I would ask how how are they impacting people right now? Because if you're not doing it right now for free, then you don't wanna do it. And that's just the truth. Like, you know I think that's real by the way, I I do say that to kids all the time about other things. Like, if someone says, oh, I wanna be, I don't know, I wanna be a nuclear scientist, and and yet they've never read any books about physics or the history of nuclear science or the biographies of the greatest nuclear scientists, I kinda say, well, you probably don't wanna be if you're not dreaming about it already, you don't wanna do it, which is a little harsh, but I think that's true. When you find your passion, you dream about it, you read about it, you think about it. Yeah. And you're you're subconsciously doing it. I I have been helping I I have been writing blogs on human behavior. No no one's in law school and just becomes a dating coach. No one's studying the University of London studying economics and stuff and just going out and being, like, oh, yeah. I also wanna teach guys this thing that at the time at the beginning, I wasn't even great at. But I have always been wanted to do this, and it's always shown through. And so when it all kind of came together like this, it's like, oh, yeah. That makes sense. A lot of people, they like the idea of being somebody. So what I would say is, do you like the idea of him having impact? And a lot of people have, like, pedigree, what they want. They wanted to they wanna have impact in a high status way. So they don't just imagine having impact. They imagine being Greta, like, the Nobel getting the Nobel Prize. That's what I want. It's like you you want the emblems. You don't want the thing. And so I'd be like, you know, you have to be honest with yourself, and I'd say impact's an awful answer. You know? And unless you're actually out there doing something, I don't think you want that. Right. It's like it's like I had a friend once. This is 25 years ago. She told me, oh, I wanna be a painter. I wanna be a painter. She got watercolor, or she got oils. She got canvas. She got the whole thing. But she said, I wanna do it in Paris. I feel like I'll be real creative in Paris, and that's when I'll open all these things. And, of course, she never went to Paris. She's a computer programmer in, like, San Jose right now and has been for the past 25 years. And, like, again, it's one of those things where your your actions that's a really weird way to put it is that your actions now have to align with what it is you wanna do. And if they don't, that's not a problem. It's just you could start testing and shifting bit by bit. You could send an email to someone and see what happens. You could Yep. To take little steps. We're a generation of people filled with I have an existential crisis. I don't know why you you an existential crisis comes from not being useful and not having skills. So a lot of people when they're, like, I wanna it's, like, what skills do you have to have impact? How are you being valuable? What are you refining? And if you're not making skills for yourself, then then you don't have any leverage. So a lot of times, you know, living in New York, you date a lot of people with dreams, and, you know, I've I've dated so many people where they're like, yeah. You know, I just there's, like, no job out there for me. I just wanna be able to do this. It's like, you're not good enough at the things you think you're good at in order to do the job you think you deserve, and it takes a lot of time. I think a lot of people have plans, but those plans are dumb. I think you you should just focus on cultivating a skill, and life happens in such a weird kind of way once you develop skills that are valuable to other people. So so, again, all this has been on the inner frame because I think, that's 50% of the battle. I think if you have, like, a strong inner frame A lot of it's intuitive. Yeah. Then then it's gonna kinda happen naturally. Oh, well, this doesn't feel good. This doesn't align with what I'm saying. But let's just now talk about, like so frame control, which was which is kind of the overall idea of of this book, the the power well, is such a strong concept, and you have right about so many amazing techniques. And then also, there's not only frame control, but there's defending yourself against people who do have strong frame control and who are attacking you with it. These these techniques are life changing, and I know this because I've used them. Sometimes I've used them accidentally, and I've just sort of learned them over time. Sometimes I've used them because someone like you tells me, oh, try this or try this. And just the combination of both, I plus now reading this book, I have I have more ideas. It's this gives this this this is an incredibly powerful tool. You even say in here, a, you mentioned how it's dangerous. B, you say Brendan, actually, in one section he wrote, this he says something which is very true, which I've unfortunately noticed over time is that as you use this more and more and move up in status of whatever hierarchy you're putting yourself in, you're going to get a lot of enemies too. And I have seen that in spades. Like, it is just crazy how your alliances shift. Friends become enemies. People who ignored you become friends. Enemies become friends. Everything sort of shifts, and you have to be able to roll with that or that will stop you. But but what's some of the frame control techniques? Well, the first off is, like, I really think the the part of the book that I think is really powerful for people to understand is how status and power work and operate. And understanding, like, when you're talking about ascending up a hierarchy, it's just, like, people don't change their behavior based on what your personality is. They adjust their behavior based on your status. So so a lot of times people don't know that. A lot of times people think, oh, if I'm just nice to this person, they'll treat me better. So so what do you mean? So basically is this is like you're gonna treat LeBron if LeBron James flakes on you, you if he hits you up a year later, you're still gonna hang out with him. Right? But you might have a friend who is nice to you all the time that you flake on all the time. And the reason why why is LeBron James closer to you than them? No. It's because of status and rarity and what you perceive that means about you. And so what you wanna do is understand that status, fame, all these things are a spell. They're not actually real. How do you pull yourself out of a status hierarchy? So let's say you get really interested in tennis. Okay? Then suddenly, the rankings in your local tennis club, become the way you live your life. Like, oh, this person's ranked number 3, and I'm only ranked number 10. He's better than me. Or let's say you you your your status hierarchy is your corporation. Oh, this person's a VP, and I'm only a director, so I don't have as much status. How do you kinda, like, remove yourself from valuing people based purely on status? Here's the thing, is you won't be able to. The brain will constantly our brains are meant to pick up on it because it's life or death. If you didn't recognize status in a tribe, they killed you. Right? So it's imperative. Your brain will always notice, but the key is it's not what you do. It's what you do next. You wanna cultivate the awareness. The re I'm supplicating right now. I am buying into this hierarchy. What would I do if I didn't care? I would just go sit with them. Then you do that. But it's about the awareness, not trying to make it automatic because it's not gonna be automatic. Sorta like the Tim Ferriss question. I think he asked us in Tools of the Titans. Like, what would you do if or how would your life change if you had a $100,000,000 right now? Just do it. Mhmm. So, but okay. And then another thing is, like, I I've noticed sometimes for me, I can diversify hierarchies. So today, this higher I'm trying to be good at this. So this hierarchy is a little more important to me. And you talk about this in the book, how to turn sometimes we're envious of people who are higher in the hierarchy, but try to turn that into Admiration. Admiration. And then you could start to emulate, you know, what they're doing. And but then I help myself a little bit more. I don't know if this is good or bad, but the next day, I might be saying, okay. I'm gonna try to get good at this other thing that I've been pursuing. And so now I'm in a different hierarchy. So I find if I if I'm not doing well in one hierarchy, I diversify hierarchies a little bit. And one of the things we talk about in the book is different hierarchies credit different things. So we use MMA as an example. You cannot be at the top of the MMA hierarchy without being the best at MMA because that it it is a hierarchy that only validates objective wins and losses. Not that that's it. Right? Stand up, it's kind of in the middle. There's some people who are highly validated stand up, but they're they're good enough. Right? And that's the thing with a lot of art. People try to treat art like it's objective hierarchy. It's not. Art is a hierarchy built on familiarity, where I'm familiar with you. I'll help you out, and alliances alliances with galleries, with with mob bosses, with whoever's buying art, the basil, people, those will shoot you up a lot faster than becoming very proficient at your craft because there's not objective measurement for what art piece is better than another. That's why things in finance is not regularly the most competent people that ascend up. Sometimes sometimes it's just a person who looks the part. I had a friend of mine who was working for GS and made their made their, table 1,000,000 of dollars. They end up hiring on the person who lost them $700,000 that summer, and the reason why, that guy had a British accent, and he didn't. And that guy fit the aesthetic. So you have to understand that, like, what what is the higher what is the cultural capital in the hierarchy that I'm getting ready to interact with? Right? What are the things that like, I'm not gonna mention my stand up credits in a legal a law interview. Right? I'm not gonna be like, oh, I opened for Bill Burr. They're gonna be like, oh I've opened for Bill Burr too. So you know? Yeah. Yeah. They say, hey. But you recognize that's a that's a thing in stand up where people be like, oh my gosh. That's really great. That's capital capital in that one area. It doesn't have cultural capital in another area. And so you wanna be aware of, number 1, what are the things that impress within this hierarchy? How can I offer value without being a sycophant? Because, like, sometimes you're like, oh, hey. Can I can I do anything for you? And I'll grab coffee. They never respect you. It's a lot better if you go in as an accountant and be like, hey, man. Like, you know, I'm just trying to get better and be around the thing. I can help you with your accounting if you teach me some skills. So so a lot of frame control is a set whatever hierarchy you're in, and it might even be just a 2 person hierarchy or relationship or or a 2 person hierarchy at sales. You're selling 1 person to you from you know, you're selling somebody something. How do you it seems like frame control is all about ascending the hierarchy as quickly as possible. Most definitely. And seeing like, I remember when I started doing comedy, you think the open mic host is getting ready to be famous. Right? Because but the that's intuitive because you see them in control in their element. You always wanna question, why are the people in power in power? Not is it unfair or whatever. We want fairness to go out of the question because fairness is doesn't exist. You wanna be like, why are they there, and how deeply are they there. Right? One of the things we talk about in the power dynamics section is there are people with, fixed power, contextual power, and a fluid power. Right? Where it's like oh, or, status. Where it's like, oh, nightclub owner, that guy in his environment is God. What he says goes. Right? The only people who can remove him are the state and the banks, and that's gonna be a whole another thing. Right? But that night, anything he says goes. Right? Then it goes down to manager, and then maybe if you buy a table, you have contextual status. While you purchase purchase the table, you have, like, some rights. You're you can point to the menu and be like, hey. I need this or whatever, but you don't have, like, legal rights in the place. It's pretty easy to remove you. And then let's say fluid status is like, oh, you go to and then you're hanging out with somebody at a table. And they're like, yeah. Hey, dude. I'm kind of bored. Go away. Well, you had fluid status right there. For a moment, you looked really cool, but it was easy to remove you away from power. So you wanna see how fixed is this this person's relationship to power, and what who do they have to satisfy to keep power? I think I think also changing the narrative of what power is. So, again, you might be, in a corporate hierarchy where you're the assistant vice president, and you might say, oh, the vice president worked hard. He, you know, went to all the his boss' parties and did all this extra work or whatever. But you could also change the narrative and say, you know what? If I break off if I quit this job and just become a consultant in the industry, that might even make me higher in the hierarchy. So so so this company could be a client of mine. My boss could end up being my my the the underling of my client, and then I've I've changed the narrative even though I've stayed in the in the industry. Yeah. And one of the reasons I think we really hit it off is we're kinda guys who flow from circle to circle and everything like that, and it makes it very hard. People are always just like, how much should I respect you? And since they don't know, they either they usually default higher than they should. And that's because when you go into a hierarchy, you gain benefits, you gain resources, you gain access, but you also lose out on individuality and the ability to do those things. And they there's a stifling element of hierarchies where, one of the things that, it's we talk about is the difference there's layers of identity. Right? There's, like, individual identity, like, who you are as an individual. There is, like, a conversational identity. Who am I? I'm in a 1 on 1 conversation. But I've had this happen where I'm talking with someone. We're having a great conversation. But when we get in a group, if I the same thing they were agreeing with me about in 1 on 1 conversation, they're no longer agreeing with because they don't feel like they have enough status to basically go along with what I'm saying, and I don't have enough status in that conversation to make them laugh at that thing. Or they have other agendas Other agendas. In a new hierarchy. Exactly. So you wanna be perceptive of how people change the more people are involved. So so so, again, so so this is this is the crux of the matter now. So I I find for myself, a lot of situations, I feel like I'm good at. Like, I'm I'm good. When I'm selling something that I'm passionate about, I I feel I'm great. Like, I'm I'm great at that. But when I'm in a situation where someone has authority over me or I'm a little I'm feeling insecure or a little inferior, I tend to be pandering and yeah. And I'm even aware. I'm not feeling comfortable. I'm, like, I'm, like, losing a little control of of what I'm doing here. What are some techniques to again, not be self aware because I I get that, but what what are some frame control techniques now? Like, I'm in let's say I'm going into the boss. I need a promotion. What do I do? I want a raise in a promotion. So let let's say this is, let's say you go into your boss. Right? And they you ask for a raise, and then they're like, well, blah blah blah. You know, whatever reason, they don't wanna give it to you. Right? The first thing you wanna do is you wanna create silence. You wanna create a validation vacuum while maintaining contact and just kind of ponder. So so these are frame control techniques. A validation vacuum And a validation vacuum is so it it oftentimes it feels like when we're defending ourselves, we are basically annihilating frame, but we're actually validating the frame. So the more energetic you are, the more you're giving the frame of descent energy. And So so, like, so, like, I asked my boss. I say, hey. It's that time of year. I'd like a promotion and a raise. He's like, no. Maybe next year, we'll consider. Times are are tough. Now he'll get or she'll get validation from any argument because it's fitting the narrative the boss has already thought of. So so you're saying don't validate what what what he just said. You you take a few seconds. Make them doubt whether what they said. Here's the thing is a lot of this stuff, you know, by creating validation vacuums, people start getting anxious. They're like, wait. What? Is he getting ready to quit? What is this? Right? And you create a state of anxiety. I mean, we've all been around somebody who when we're talking and then they just look at us blankly, and then you're, like, feel the need to keep talking. Right? Because as they keep talking, they might give you objections. They might see they might be like, oh, you know, and I know you've been working really hard this year. Right? They might start arguing against themselves. So you just take a couple seconds, you know, let them and you wanna not have an angry face, but you wanna have a blank face. So okay. So that's technique number 1. Yeah. Silence slash validation vacuum. Validation vacuum. And then for this, you want to get them to explain themselves. So why is this? Not not why and then so then once they start giving reasons, they get them to go as long as because you want them to feel desperate to hear your words. Right? They start going a lot longer about, like, well, you know, it's just like money's tight or blah blah blah or all this other stuff. And and What did they just say? Money's tight? Yeah. So money's tight. You say, so there is no money available to reward good work. Now if they say there's no money available to validate good work, then you start saying, is the company okay? So now now you're catching them in a bind. Right? They're like, wait. Wait. Well, no. The company is fine. It's just so the company is fine, yet there is no extra money to validate good work. Right? Then so let's say they are just jam packed. They are not gonna give you money, and but but they want to validate that you have done a good job, that you you've done a good job and blah blah blah. It's like, well, what other ways can we think about of rewarding good behavior? You know? Now I maybe I'm you explore coming in on terms of yours because you also there's some people, they can't make the movement. Right? Sometimes they there is no money left. Right? Well, maybe you can come in less. Maybe you can work from home more. Maybe, you know, you wanna take this big trip out, you wanna work remote. Maybe in writing, you know, you wanna get, like, hey. When is this gonna happen? Or you wanna get them started on the process. So maybe they can't give you the full $1,000 increase right then. Well, that's let's say, okay. That's fine. Let's do a $250 increase right now and then do it in steps rather than waiting a whole next year. You want to provide them with different ways out that they hadn't been considering. Right? You wanna constantly be reinventing the frame because too many people go into what I call a binary frame component, a win lose, a false dichotomy. No. We can't do what you ask. That's it. And you're like, oh, well, do do do. And critical, like, let's say they even say, well, you're not ready yet for the promotion in my estimation. I I at at at the very least, you don't wanna try to convince them because now you have a weaker frame. You don't wanna say, but I did this, this, this, when after so and so quit, I took on their job. Like, what would you do then if they kind of, like, invalidate your your what you think is your rightful promotion? Well, so number 1 is, does everybody feel this way? Right? And so, like, number 1, you're just like because then you're gonna be they're thinking, like, wait. What does he mean by that? You take your time, and you're gonna be like, go through specifically why I'm not ready. Right? Specifically. So now they're having to come up with this massive elaborate thing on, like, why you're not ready for this. And then now you're gonna be like, I'm gonna have to think about a lot what is you had to say. Right? You take it away from them. Right? You don't have to answer right there. This doesn't have to be something solved right there. It's not a closed thing. But now you have time to basically, number 1, they've given you a blueprint of what you need to do to basically be promoted in their eyes. You you can just do that within a month, and then, hey, look. I've done everything you've asked. There's no reason. You wrote this out. These are the things you said I needed to do. Now you've just been armed with ammunition to basically go in and change the narrative. A lot of times people overestimate what can be done in one conversation when you're there. You can have multiple conversations. Right? But a lot of times, a lot of people are working with a nebulous standard. Right? One of the things, Andrew Yang, love Andrew Yang, he says, I love the DNC for telling me exactly what I need to do in order to make the next debates so I know how to focus my time. So that's exactly what your bosses did for you right there. It's like, tell me exactly specifically what it is. Because the more they're like, well, your character, blah blah blah, that's not something you can work with. Make them get specific. Okay. So, let's take a spouse situation. So let's say the spouse, you know, male or female Also, one thing I wanna say just is make sure you're in neutral rapport tonality, and this is something that's, like, a lot I it's something that is in my course, but we can't communicate it over the book is the way if you're, like, hey, I really do feel that's called upward tonality. Your voice is going upward in inflection. There that's already submissive in nature. So you might even be saying the right thing, but they're not gonna take it as seriously, and some people's accents are naturally structured to be submissive. I I tend to do that. I when I'm nervous or feeling insecure or inferior, I tend to go upwards Yeah. In tonality, and, I need to avoid that. Yeah. Just just make sure it's just, like, neutral and slow, and, what I would say is if you notice you're talking fast, pause rather than, than try to slow down. Because if you're like, no. I just feel like this and then you're like, but this is the case, and then it sounds weird. But if you're just like, I just feel like I've been doing a lot of really good good work, and I really feel that that should be that's all of a sudden you get a different rhythm. Yeah. It makes sense because you you you whenever you talk to someone who's panicking, they're usually talking fast. You're talking to someone who's not panicking, they're usually talking slower. So so okay. What's another situation, a common frame control situation? Well, so a lot of times, let's say this is and we we talk about this in the intimate relationship section because there's a different rule to intimate relationships, and that's not just romantic. That's that's some somebody we're close to. There are a lot of manipulative tactics that people do, and they're not even aware of it. So, there's, like, the habitual crier. Right? Or the it's some the person who gets belligerent in certain circumstances where whenever you're trying to make them to confront a truth about themselves, all of a sudden they get really mad, and they're yelling, and they're bringing up 8 things that you did. And now you feel like you're trying to defend yourself on 8 fronts, which this is the same that you create a validation vacuum, number 1. You and a lot of times with belligerent people, I'd say, get out of the place because they're not gonna let you say your argument in a way in which that is compelling. You want to separate from them and write a letter. The reason why you wanna write a letter is they, number 1, get the totality of your argument. They're not gonna straw man it midway, and you wanna create a validation vacuum by leaving whenever they get like this so that, number 1, they become anxious just to hear from you. Right? So that all and you're not kind of subjected to their overbearing presence. Now manipulative crier does this, but in the same way where, like, maybe you're you're talking with someone and they start crying. And I'm not saying every person who starts crying does this, but there are people that anytime you try to bring up something that where they might look bad, they start crying, but whenever they're in the right, they're never crying. You want to create enough space where, number 1, you wanna watch them cry, which will seem like like you're a sociopath, but the reason why is you wanna let this emotional state go out. And they're gonna probably say things like you don't like, to get you engaged. You don't do any of that. If anything, you just repeat your one point. And whenever people try to bring up a myriad of other things that you're doing wrong in a in a argument, you say, those might be true, but we're talking about this right now. You want to keep it focused on the topic at hand. So I think I think so so so this is very important because this is really so in kind of a romantic or relationship situation or an argument, oftentimes, someone's trying to argue with you or maybe you're the one trying to argue. And someone, if they can't win in one direction, and I use win in quotes, if they can't win in one direction, they'll change the topic and say, well, but then there was this situation. And then you say, well, no. No. I wasn't even there. No. But then there was this situation. So I think there, your your what you were just saying is important, but but your labeling technique is really important where you just and this is from the book where you just SimpliSafe, you know, okay. It's okay if we change the topic, but could we like, what's what are we talking about here? Like, are we talking about the first thing you brought up, or is there something bigger? Like, labeling what's happening and pointing out that topics have changed instead of letting them sort of drift wherever they go in in a sense, controlling their frame. I think that labeling technique's really critical. Yeah. Just and also keeping the conversation focused. That's, like, the really hard part, whereas where one of the things we recommend in the book is do not try to solve the reason for a fight during a fight. That's gonna sound so counterintuitive, but the the, a fight is actually a frame battle gone wrong. And what happens is, number 1, a fight is meant to dominate the other, not to kind of come up with a solution. And so you're gonna So what are you supposed to do? They're fighting, and he's just said, hey. Are we did you just change the topic? Can we get back to the original topic? How do you how do you kind of A fight needs 2 people to participate in. So when you feel that you are getting in a place where you are fighting, then that means, hey, we're getting heated. There's nothing gonna be solved right now. Let's take some time. Come back to this. And what I would suggest doing in this part is you want to become them. What I call the and not just, oh, imagine their side, which is a superficial way of doing this. No. You want to look at the situation in a way in which where you become them, where you you imagine what it's like to grow up like them, their incentives, basically what books that they read, the ideology that they buy into, what their friends might say, all of these things, and you wanna argue against yourself. So you understand with deep empathy where they're coming from. Right? Then what you wanna do is then build your argument on top of that. And the problem that a lot of people have is they'll think about the other point of view. They won't think about their own, go back, and then be like, yeah. You're a 100% right. No. You have you have validity. You wanna think about your point of view last. They want you want that to be the last thing you think about before you go in. So part of this is part of frame control is validating their frame as much as possible. So so I kind of going back and forth, I guess, between a validation vacuum when they're too off course, you feel, and you're trying to just calm things down. Or just even know what you're actually arguing about. So sometimes so the example and you you call this the the the the right reason and the real reason. Right? Like and I use the example in the book. Let's say you have a son who's like, hey. I really need a car to drive from school to work, and you're like, oh, I can solve that easily. I can just drive you. You know, I'm free at that time, and all of a sudden it's manifesting into this huge fight, and you're like, what's the issue? Well, the thing is is that he if you're imagining being a teenage boy, he probably wants time alone with his girlfriend, the freedom that comes with the car, the cachet, the insecurities. So you can actually talk about the real issue that he wants freedom and autonomy, not necessarily that you he needs someone to drive him from school to work. So so I feel like there's there's so many interesting situations, and there's so many specific techniques that you bring up that are so powerful. And and what was great was a lot of them I recognized as, oh, I've I've used this once or twice in this situation. But actually seeing them written down and putting a name to the technique makes it easier to have it, like, literally right there in my head, in my arsenal of of frame control techniques. And, again, it's good for ascending a hierarchy. It's good for making a sale. But by the way, Steve, if they if they ring the doorbell, can we keep them out there for, like, 5 more minutes or 10 more minutes? Yeah. So what would be let's say it's a let's say it's a sale. I'm I'm making a sale. I call you up. Hey. You know, I thought you might be I I noticed you just bought a car. Maybe you want a better car insurance. Like, what do what do you think? Number 1, you gotta meet them where you're at they're at. Right? Number 1, you don't wanna go in trying to sell up top because, like, that's a they don't trust you. You wanna establish trust in a sale. Right? You wanna How do you establish trust? Yeah. Basically, by, hey, what's up? Understanding where they're coming from. Hey, what's you know, blah blah blah. You know, just, you know, you're on a list for health insure I mean, health insurance thing is not something I have personal experience with, and there's a lot of dynamics you can't control on the phone. But let's say you're you're in the middle of a sale, and you're talking to somebody, and you're trying to get them to purchase something. Number 1, you wanna find out their pain points. How does your thing actually solve their problem? So many times people get obsessed with how their product is a stand alone product, and you should get how this this works. Right? And the large part, like, you know, when I'm selling a frame control thing, I'm not like, your frame control is the this is the best course ever. It changes in your life. I'm like, you know, how great would it be to make 10% more money every year? Right? Like, you know, if they've mentioned that, like, oh, you know, I'd like a bigger house or whatever like that, like, oh, I'm kind of lonely. I'm not having the relationships I want or whatever like that. You find out where you they basically sell themselves on your product. Right? So if they're not having the relationships they want, it's like, why do you think that is the case? Right? And they're like, oh, I don't think girls like guys like me or whatever like that. It's like, you know, I think that's a you're having a weak frame about yourself and your own concept of value. If you don't think you're valuable, why should someone else think you're valuable? Right? And then you start working from that pain point and how your product solves their problem, right, where they basically get to explain to you why they need to buy your product, and you can always appeal back to that. So so, again, this book, there's so many incredible sections. I feel like we've only made a a a dent in it. And what I like is that there's so many techniques and there's so many permutations of the techniques. Like, every situation requires, like, a different set of these tools. But the the the first part is building that inner frame, then there's frame control, then there's, how to defend yourself against a frame attack, which happens a lot more often than people think. And, like, you're always under attack in every situation, I feel. And then, and then there's also discussion about being a frame addict. What do you do about that person who constantly needs to be the center of attention? It's hard to to stay in a room with them or or and you don't wanna be that person too as you as learning these techniques. But I like this one quote in the book. You say, college sorry. Courage requires fear. You must be afraid of something to experience the virtue of courage. When you take steps towards what you're afraid of, you're guaranteed the gift of courage, which provides you which provides you with euphoric feelings that give you a strong frame. Acting courageously is bold and be so acting courageously is bold, and being bold is an integral part of having a strong frame. What I like about it, it reminds me of writing because I always tell myself if my writing is gonna be unique and interesting, I can't hit publish unless I'm afraid of what people are going to think of me. And it's almost the same with that quote. Like, you kinda have to constantly stretch the comfort zone. Otherwise, people are gonna treat you if you're always in let's say that the friend zone is the same as your comfort zone in your relationship with a person. So if you don't stretch that comfort zone, people are always gonna treat you like a friend when you want something different. Most definitely. And also, a lot of times, we, shy away from things because we're afraid what we might actually find out. Right? So a lot of times people when they're a lot of times people confuse patience with cowardice, and courage allows you to actually earn the virtue of patience. Because if you're not courageous, you're just gonna be, like, oh, I'm patient, but you're actually just a coward. You're not actually going out and taking those opportunities, and you're basically writing it off as another virtue. But when you are courageous, when you actually have done things and have been reckless in certain circumstances, when you say, actually, I think here I need to be patient, that actually means something. Right. And, also, again, you could if something scares you, if it's too big of a jump, take a smaller jump. Just do something. Something. Something in that direction of fear. Because you could do look. I could just step on an ant, and that's a little bit safer for me than stepping on a wolf. But it's like, I'm still might be afraid of an ant, but it's a small, tiny, microscopic. So you could always do something microscopic. Yeah. So many times people get caught up with the perfect move, And number 1, the perfect move doesn't exist, especially close to the beginning. What you wanna just do is a better move. And sometimes, yeah, the better move requires courage, not the cost you pay, but also courage gives you self respect. Right? The more courageous you act, the more you respect yourself, the more you can ask yourself to do. And so the the thing is is that it's such a virtuous cycle where all these virtues kind of feed each other in a really symbiotic way. So okay. Bill, how this first off, I even told you when you got here, this is one of the few books that has blown me away. I felt like my IQ was rising while I was reading it. And, again, I recognized so many of the techniques, and and I saw new ones that I could think of situations to use it in or ways in which I've been failing in different interactions in my life. How do people get the Power Bible? So, the Power Bible, you can get it, at framescholar.com, where basic framescholar.com. Framescholar.com. And, basically, it's that. It comes as a part of my my, frame control masterclass, which basically goes through all these lessons and even more things that we couldn't even include in the book. And, yeah. And there's also Like what? Like, what can you include in the book? Like, for for example, my voice course, which is basically a lot of people have weak frames because they don't have a voice that tells them they should have a strong frame. That's something I can't communicate within a book. I also have exercises. I have my mentorship community, run through a diagnostic of a FAQ. And then there's a lot of what I said, where it's, like, a lot of a message of something is communicated through, like, the delivery of it, like, the power of that delivery to to the individual. So so they get the Power Bible, with course, the my discipline course on basically how to go from where you're at to implementing all these different rules, the 9 layers of discipline with also a course with a 183 lessons and the book. What's, like, an exercise that's in the course? It's not in the book. So Can you use some exercises in the book? So so the one of the things basically, on I'd go through deeply on the voice course part component of it on how to represent your voice and how to slowly get it deeper. Like, if you listen to my first podcast with James and listen to it now, there's actually a massive difference, and that didn't happen automatically. And I go through how to diagnose these things or basically, how to basically I talk about not analogizing letting people analogize your arguments. Right? It was something I didn't mention in the book because it's kind of petty and the book is kind of me like, meaningful. But if someone tries to analogize your argument, they're they're changing it. So if you're, like, don't no. That analogy doesn't fit, an an you take back the power. Because a lot of people try to, no. No. It's more like this. No. Now you're giving their analogy frame. So it's related to the zoom out, zoom in technique. Exactly. But maybe they're they're also trying to slightly change the topic at the same time, and you're you're labeling it. But you have to practice recognizing that. Exactly. And then there's just, like, a lot of just subtle nuances where I go through a detailed thing of how to get a job you don't deserve, how to get more money, how to leverage more of these things, how to get more, how to get dates, how to get out of friend zone. I I have all these FAQs that aren't included in the book that are included in the course and also just like audio commentary for longer form videos. So it's a 183 lessons, and, yeah, it's it just honestly as a whole package, it's just gonna revolutionize your life. And, I have to ask this, but well, so framescholar.com. What what can we do for listeners of this podcast right now? Because I really think this is valuable. I I love the book. You know, I'm aware of the course. I know I I love the course. I want people to get this. What what can you do for them? I'm gonna negotiate right now. I have I have Frame right now. Yeah. Yes. Frame is his podcast. We're in we're in his house. It's a great art, social proofing. Yeah, dude. Let's let's do 30% for your your your, your base. Like, I mean, you're the big reason why a lot of this has happened. So what could is there are you gonna set up a page like framescholar.com? Yeah. And and the coupon code will be there, and it'll be altitude podcast. Okay. Altager podcast. Can you set up a page like framescholarframescholar.com/james? Yes. Okay. So that'll just it'll be then you'll automatically recognize, like, these are all people from James Podcast and stuff? Most definitely. Okay. I think this is so valuable. I wanna have you on again to to talk about more. There's so many different situations. Get Brendan on. Brendan Oh, yeah. Yeah. Brendan. Brendan went went from being, just to put how powerful this guy is, went from being homeless to making over 6 figures while doing comedy. I mean, he he he is just one of the most well the smartest people we both know, and, yeah, just, I think, would be an excellent guess. Yeah. And this has always been, like, an an odd friendship for me in the sense that how old are you? I'm 29. So you're 29. I'm 51. And yet I've called you we've both called each other, but I probably called you even more for advice than you've called me. Now, admittedly, I've given you big, huge huge valuable piece of advice in one go Yeah. At different times. But, like, you've given me lots of tactical advice in, like, a 100 different situations. So it's been really like, I'm so happy to see how this book, has how you've written it and then and then the course. Like, this is gonna be a reference. The the the book and course is gonna be a reference point for me, in just my own persuasion parts of my life and frame control and moving around. Like, I'm a I'm a big believer in how do you skip the line in hierarchies. And a lot of these techniques, I'm gonna basically steal from you and try to write in my next book, although, you know, not as as well as you've done here. Just take bits and pieces that I personally use. But, it's so valuable. At the very least, if if okay. Here's another thing. If someone goes to framescholar.com/james, can they get you you said you have a 183 lessons. Can they get a couple for free just to see what it's like? Yeah. So I actually have 3 webinars on there that basically cover a lot of what covered in here, but specifically on how to make more money from frame control, how to base, how which is like a a 50 minute thing, how to have a better romantic, life from frame control, and how to get the body of your dreams, which a lot of people don't think is about frame control, but it's really about holding frame with yourself. And so those 3 videos I I have on there, and I'll have, like, a couple short, like, little, tactic videos on there as well. Excellent. Well, Bill Petit, frame control expert, lawyer, dating coach, comedian, world traveler. You're heading out of the country in a few weeks. Right? Yeah. For forever? What's gonna happen? So I'm I'm going to I'm moving to France, and one of the primary reasons is I'm writing a book on the metaphysics of identity and basically transcending culture, tribalism, and our multiplicity of identities. And a lot of French philosophers and French sociologists have written about it, and I've gotten to a point where I no longer wanna read it the read it in a language that's not the native language because I think that there's something sometimes lost in translation. And so I wanna go there, number 1, learn how to speak French and everything like that, and then get access to the culture that produced the thinkers that have been kind of thinking about a lot of this stuff that we haven't necessarily been thinking about in Anglo, Germanic, kind of the philosophical tradition. Well, good luck on that. Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah. And come back soon because, it's better when when you're here. And, framescholar.com/james. They can get all the stuff, Power Bible, all the free webinars, access to your course, your mem mentorship community, membership, whatever it is. And, thanks again for coming on. This this is so valuable, and and the the book was really, fantastic. I'm really really happy I read it. I I I truly appreciate you. Thank you so much for having me on, and thanks again, man. Yeah. Thanks, Bill.