Best October Books with Betsy Lerner

Transcript

This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the James Altucher Show. This is gonna be an episode of I was wrong. Now I'm very rarely wrong. Wrong? Very rarely. Don't Yeah. Almost never. Make fun of me. Almost never. Almost never. Almost never. Mhmm. Almost never. Yeah. For people listening, they're being completely sarcastic because I'm wrong all the time. But well, at least according to Robin, I'm wrong on everything. No. No. I and, Jay, I'm wrong about anything relating to podcasts. Not really. But we've only done we've only done one episode of I was wrong, and it was about homeownership. Yep. And it's not quite that I was wrong, but I'll let people listen to that episode. Jay, maybe you could if there's show notes or something, you could link to that episode. Yeah. And this this episode is about college education. So Yes. Just a little bit of history. In 2005, I wrote an article for the Financial Times. I had a regular column in the Financial Times, which is that pink newspaper from England. It's actually a good a pretty good newspaper because I feel like they get into more substantial it's not just like, here's what Apple's earnings were. They specifically encouraged me to write as insanely as possible. In fact, my first few articles were a little too sane. Like, I just sort of, hey. Here's what stocks I like. And the editor in chief, Lionel Barber, he recently retired being editor in chief. Actually, it was a few years ago pre COVID. But, he he brought me into the office, and he said, if you write more columns like this, we're gonna have to get rid of you. We specifically want you to write the most insane stuff. Like, that's what we want you to do. What is insane stuff? Well, just not the usual, like, boring things that everybody writes about. So for instance, I wrote an article. Nobody should send their kids to college. Right. And at the time, this was like sacrilege. Like, now I feel it's a conversation that parents have with their kids. But then, basically, every kid had to go to college or you felt horribly. Yeah. And, you know, I would tell my kids, well, they were very young then, but later. Because I I wrote about this not only in 2005, but for the 17 years since then. But I remember when I wrote that article, people were sending me hate mail on I I did a video on Yahoo Finance. There were 10,000 comments just just saying, oh, easy for him to say. He went to college. And and and I would try to respond. Like, that's why I know that it's not worth it because I went. If if I didn't go, I wouldn't know that it wasn't worth it. And this this one blog, tore me apart. It was it was 2 professors arguing that that how bad I was. And one time, actually, I gave a talk. I was invited to give a talk at the Cornell the Cornell Club in New York. It's where alumni go. And it was me and the head the the head of the department of computer science at Cornell, which is the department I graduated from. The the head of education in New York State was there. And everybody's give us these glowing talks about education and Cornell. And I went up there and said, my computer science degree was worthless. And you don't nobody should send their kids to college. Do you get boo? I I yeah. Everybody after that who spoke after that said something, not about anything I said, just how just said something about me. Like, it was almost probably really quiet. Well and then no there was q and a afterwards, and none of the q and a people asked me any question. Like, they completely ignored me. Everybody ignored me after even the people who invited me to give the talk, they, like, just sort of left without shaking my hand and saying thank you, and and they never asked me back there again. Even though I'm an alum I'm a prestigious alumni from from that school. But I also lost friends. And this is this is part of the problem. This is part of why I was wrong, but I'll get to that in a second. I don't necessarily think I my my opinions are largely the same, but they're a little bit more nuanced than they were before. But I think the facts have stayed the same. So by the way, I wrote a book. I think it was in 2012, 40 Alternatives to College. For a while, it was the number one book on Amazon under the category of college education. And a lot of things have happened since 2,005 that have just confirmed what I've, said. So back in 2,005, I said that tuitions have risen faster than inflation every single year since 1977. So since 2,005, tuitions have gone up faster than inflation every single year since 2,005. And actually it's not since 1977, it's since 1965. So I have questions. Why does it start on 2,005? Like, I don't know if you look into this or or or is it just No. No. It didn't start in 2,005. It started when student loans started getting backed by the US government. Right. So because because, basically, you know, kids under the age of 25, your prefrontal cortex is not fully formed. Yeah. And that's the part of your brain that helps you manage risk. And so kids, they don't know. The 18 year old, they take out this $200,000 loan to go to college, and the parents can't say it. Believe me, as a parent, you can't say anything. If a kid wants to go to college, they're going to college. Like, they it's hard to say no. I mean, I guess I coulda said no. But I mean, they will hate you for life. You know? They woulda hated me for life. And, you know, also, fewer people need a college degree now to get a job. So it used to be the big, like, the big reason my kids would give you know, there's always a good reason and a real reason with kids. So So they give they would give me a good reason, like, oh, you can get a job if you have a college degree. Or even if I wanna be, like, an artist or a writer, I'll have something to fall back on. There's only they always use it afraid. I'll have something to fall back on if I have a college degree. And let's not forget, there's nothing to fall back on. 55,000,000 people were laid off in the 1st few months of COVID. 55 half the workforce of the United States was laid off. So there's no there's no safety in a in a job. Like, that's the biggest myth of of jobs. The other thing is there's all these reports. Like, Georgetown did this study where they actually mentioned me. They they they mentioned me as a fool, basically. And they did the study that showed that over a 30 year period, people with college degrees make more than people without college degrees. Their statistics were somewhat correct, but their articles were in around 2010 or 2006. I forget something somewhere in there. 30 year period that starts in 1976. So whatever happened in 1976 doesn't apply now. There was no gig economy. There was no Internet. Mhmm. There was no multiple streams of income. There's no crypto? Peep there was no crypto. Peep people got did go to college and get a job based on their college degree. Now let me see. I have all sorts of statistics. We'll get to them in a second. Let's go. So first off, I just wanna mention, though, there are alternatives to college. Like, Google, you know, offers these career certificates. Like, you could get a Google data analytics professional certificate. And Google has connections with a 140 different companies that will companies that will acknowledge these Google certificates and give people jobs. 82% of the people who have gone through Google's professional certificate program have gotten jobs. Just just as good as, like and and by the way, the average starting salary, 69,000. Wow. So and and 57% of people who go through Google certificate program do not have college degrees. 59%. Sorry. Now guess what the average starting salary is for a college graduate? 50? 55,000. Yes. So so less than someone who goes through now guess how much Google's certificate program costs? $150? It's close. Close. $30.39 a month after a free trial. And and let me see how long. Well, it would be one thing if it was 6000 months, then you're in trouble. But I mean, $150 sounds sounds like I don't know. It's like a year or 2. Yeah. A year. So, like, 30 times 12 is, like, 260. And and and people will say, like, well, what I don't what if I don't wanna do what if I don't wanna do a Google cert like, you know, their certificate programs are in things like data analytics Right. UX design, IT support, IT automation. And people could say, well, what if I don't wanna do those things? Well, then you're probably not gonna get a job even if you go to college. So, like, if you major in, like, you know, I don't know, anything with the word studies in it, you're probably not gonna get a job afterwards. Yeah. And, like, Jay Jay, what did you major in? I majored in recording arts. Right. I knew what I wanted to do when I was 15, so I only focus on 3 subjects. Yeah. So you you specifically studied something that you wanted to get a job in. And now Yeah. You by the way, you you do do recording, but you're also a podcast producer. You do you're you're speaking at podcast conferences about not only the rec how do you do a recording, but you book the guests. You find the guests in many cases. So all the guests approach you because they know I don't return emails. And Yes. So you're you you've you've you've done more than what you studied for. So something like something like 80% of people don't do for a job what they studied for in college. And, also, like, they never asked for my my cert certificates. I'm pretty sure the last time I interview for a studio, they just look at my resume, and then they I don't think they even look at my resume. They just ask me what what do I do, what have I done, what console do I use, for how long, and that's it. I was a intern. Well and I don't have any data on this, but after the first job, no one cares what your degree was. They just wanna know what you did. So and but but let's also look at some other facts. These are these were the big I'll tell the problems, but then I'll say I was wrong about something. So I will I I I will acknowledge that. But, here's the problem. 44,000,000 Americans now have student debt. And and the the total amount of student debt is 1.5 trillion dollars. There's no way. Like, there's been all these rumors. Oh, you know, congress is gonna forgive student loan debt. Biden's gonna forgive student loan debt. They're not gonna forgive $1,500,000,000,000 Right. When there's all these worries about inflation right now. And it's sad because these you know, the average salary for a plumber is $74,000. Okay? Many plumbers don't have college degrees. Right. So they don't have student loan debt. I just said what the average starting salary is for a college graduate. It's $55,000. But if they have a $100,000 in debt, then they're never gonna pay that down. It's really crippling. So a lot of people, because of their their student loan debt, they have to delay things like marriage and owning a home and and having kids. They live with their parents. You know, student loan so I'm reading this right now. Student loan debt, it delays retirement savings. So student loan borrowers, they were asked, what what don't you spend on? 41% say they can't do any saving because of it all goes to the debt. They can't 40% say they can't buy a car. 29% say they can't buy a home. 15% say they can't marry. I guess, you know, they're willing to be broke and married, but, you know, they don't wanna be broke and buy a car. Jay, by the way, congratulations on buying your first car. What what kind of car are you getting? I haven't buy a car. I would literally just go there and see it. And then, it's just way too expensive. So I'm like, because do you have student loan debt? That's that why you're not doing it? No. It's just that, like, I it doesn't justify me paying, like, $76 for a car that was supposed to cost $52. So they broke up $10,000. Really? This is this is Wow. Yep. This is an interesting statistic. So since student loan debt became a thing, since the government started backing student loan debt, like, right now today, less than 50% of women and less than 30% of men have passed what's called the transition to adulthood milestones by age 30. So the transition to adulthood milestones, are finishing school, moving out of their parents' home, being financially independent, marrying, and having children. In 1960, 77% of women and 65% of men had completed those milestones by age 30. Now some of that's not because of college. Some of that is just culturally. People don't have kids as as early and so on. But a lot of that is due to people postponing things because of student loan debt. And now and, again, many college graduates don't do jobs related to their college degree. For instance, 16,000 parking lot attendants have college degrees. 115,000 janitors have college degrees. 15% of taxi drivers have college degrees. 85% of college freshmen say they attended college to be able to get a better job. That's just BS. So, you know, and, again, I think that's a good reason that people say, but the reality is people go to college because they don't wanna enter the real world yet. And you have go to lots of parties and you have a good time. And Yeah. And it's also a cultural thing, I believe. I mean, now Americans are a little bit different. Like, in Malaysia in Asia, like, once you graduated from secondary school, what is equivalent of high school, we we have to go to college. Like, every time my mom asked like, when I was when I graduated, my my mom always asked me, are you gonna be a doctor, lawyer, or an engineer? Like, these three things that which, you know, I have to go to college for. Yeah. So, you know, in a lot of countries, I think it like, Japan and so on, it's expected. You go to school or else you're considered like a loser. And in the United States, it was like that. But I think the conversation, it's still largely like that now, but I think the conversation is at least applicable because people saw how many people were laid off during the great recession in 2008, 2009, how little loyalty companies had. And then again in 2020, companies had zero loyalty. Everyone was fired. And then, you know, back in I think it was 2015 or 2014, I did a little bit of consulting for LinkedIn. And I remember asking them, how many of your you know, LinkedIn, everybody searches for jobs. And I asked them, how many job searches are related to the gig economy? And, you know, the gig economy are things like web design or being an Uber driver or, you know, some kind of software data thing. And I don't know. There's lots of gig economy stuff. We've done a ton of podcasts about that. And they said it's so small. It's inconsequential. But they said it is growing, and and it's still growing. So so right now, the gig economy a few years ago, pre COVID, it was $200,000,000,000. Now it's $450,000,000,000. That's how big the gig, economy is. And that's just in a few years. It's growing 17% a year. I mean, if you think about it, if the economy were to grow 17% a year, everyone would freak out because that would mean there's too much inflation. The the US economy grows about 2% a year, but the gig part of the US economy is growing 17% a year. And with good reason. Because the IRS says in or you know, most multimillionaires have, on average, 5 different sources of income. And if you have a job, you only have one source of income. So the gig economy gives you multiple sources of income. And, you know, you could choose your lifestyle, which is very important to people. Like, younger people wanna work remote or they wanna work at locations that they love. And, Atlanta. Exactly. Well, the the average plumber in Atlanta, that's where the statistic I was using, makes $74,000. Wow. Wow. So Well, with the Internet, I think that changed a lot of things because before, you know, you'd have to learn things in school, but now you're able to do it at home and online. So, I mean, I think that plays a huge role in in the change right now. Yeah. That YouTube. People learn. I mean, just compare. Like, a plumber owns makes 74,000. And by the way, plumber has a a hard job, so I'm not dissing plumbers at all. They have a hard job. They should get paid a lot. So the average bachelor's degree, person makes $64,896. So and and the plumber most likely doesn't have student loan debt. And so, okay, why is student loan debt so bad? Well, again, I mentioned how kids, they don't really know how to assess risks. They like, I I once went on the NYU campus, and I interviewed every kid I could find. And, basically, every I said, how are you gonna pay your student loan? I asked everybody what their student loan debt was and how they're gonna pay it back. And, like, one kid I talked to said he's working in an eyeglass store part time, and he'd probably work there full time because it's the only job where he could consistently, you know, pay pay back the debt. Another, woman I spoke to said she was gonna hopefully get a job at MTV. And I said, well, why and and then she would pay back her debt. And her debt was about $200,000. And I said, well, what kind what kind of salary could you make at MTV? And she said, well, I'm hoping to make, like, $55,000 and or $50,000. There's no way to pay it back because 30% or so goes to taxes, particularly in New York City. And, you know, a a an apartment is like, a studio apartment is 1500 a month. How is she gonna pay back her her debt? In in New York City? Yeah. It's not anymore. Not anymore. Yeah. You were paying 27100. I was pay paying 27100 for For the worst apartment in the city. No. Worse. But, like, in a loft. And then, I just left, and, I asked the listing agent how much he's gonna up the price for at least the price for. She said, like, we'll try $35100 and see, you know, what happened. $500. And how how many square feet was it? It's 750. It's a 1 bedroom. Right? 1 bedroom. It's like a loft. So the average person with a bachelor's degree makes $1200 a week before taxes. So let's say $800 a week after taxes. So they have to they would have to spend their whole salary to live in New York City, and then and then they have to borrow money from their parents. That's that's no way you can live by yourself unless you have, you have a roommate. Or you have Or or 4 roommates. Well well, when I 4. Yeah. First off, when I first moved to New York City, I had student loan debt. And I in order to live in New York City, I had to basically live in a one room apartment that was probably much smaller than, like, 750 square feet was probably a palace. And I had a roommate. So I was on a futon, and he was on the sofa. And the shower constantly ran. It couldn't turn off. Oh, no. My god. The kitchen was gross. And, anyway and then I I don't know what the deal was. I think he found a key to an apartment, and we were living there because no one else was. And then one day at 3 in the morning, he's like he walks in and say, come on. Come on. You gotta pack right now. We gotta get out of here. Oh, no. And I know what? And that's when we were out. And I had the flu then as well. Yeah. We were we were I don't know what was going on, but squatter. Oh my god. So the other problem though with the government guaranteeing you know, student loan debt is the one kind of debt you can't get rid of in a bankruptcy. And, you used to be able to, but now you can't. And so that means even if you go bankrupt, you still owe your student loan debt. Everything else goes away. Now, college presidents is that true? Student loans and IRS. That's probably true. So what happens with the government is the government pays your tuition, and then you owe the government money. So college presidents know they're gonna get paid. So the college president says, yeah. We'll raise we'll raise the tuition because I know I'm gonna get paid. As long as people go to college, I'm gonna get paid. So because the government pays, not the not the students. The government pays for everybody who they lend money to. The 1,500,000,000,000 in student loan debt all went into the college campuses. And so that's why they just keep raising the tuition because the students don't care. The college presidents don't care. The government doesn't care because they're stupid. Anyway, this is problem number 1 with college. Problem number 2 is you spend 4 years not really studying what you wanna do with your life. You you're spending 4 years learning things, but you're not necessarily studying what you're gonna what you're interested in, what you're passionate about, what you're gonna do for a living. It's not adding to your skills. You know, guess what major make earns the less? I just looked it up. Okay. Is it business? No. Anything in the humanities, which is, like, the bulk of liberal arts. Yeah. Which is the bulk of of college graduates. Does does it does it also include gender study? Anything with the word studies in it is a guaranteed you're you probably won't even get a job if you have the word studies in your degree. This is this is what I confuse about the most. Like, you're 18. Right? When you graduate at 18 or whatever, high school, whatever, how do you know what field you want to go into? Do you just like do you just like, I wanna be a That's a very good point. You know? So that's why I like this Google certificate program. Bay here's what I would do. If I was if I was a 18 year old right now But, like, the Google certificate is only for, like, one particular position. Right? Right. So so okay. So here's what I would do. Okay. Here's what I would do. I would go to Coursera, which is a great, online learning site, and I would take courses in a bunch of different subjects. Maybe I would take even a 100 courses, same number of course I would take in college. But it's faster. It's more immersive, and there's actually more diversity of what your choices are. You could take a course on anything. So there there's so many course of Coursera. In fact, Google certificates are act are hosted by Coursera. But there's other there's other online sites too, like, you know, Skillshare and Teachable and Highbrow and Codecademy. And Yeah. And they're not all technical. Like, I'm I'm gonna look at Coursera right now. But I think a lot of the good part about universities, I think, is, you know, the socializing and, you know, meeting people, meeting kids that, you know, maybe But but I agree, and that's the other reason everybody gives. But do you really think an 8 like like, Robin, take your daughter for instance who's in college right now. Do you really think at the age of 19, she would have a problem socializing? Like, she would just if if she wasn't forced to go to college, she she would just not stay in her room all day and not socialize with anybody? Well, no. But, I mean, I feel like it's a place where, you know, they can, you know, try new things, try different studies, you know, meet kids that are there, that maybe have the same, you know, likes. I don't know. I I just feel like they aren't that old yet. You know? They're 18, 19. They don't really know what they wanna do. And, yeah, I guess a lot of kids, they they do party, and they do all that stuff, but there are a lot of kids that don't, and they really get a lot out of it. So I think it's very nuanced. It depends on the the kid. You know? You know, some kids just don't like that environment, and some really do like the environment. So So is it worth, like, anywhere between 50 and $200,000 to make friends? Like, is that the cost of making friends when you're 19? Be just for friends, but it's it's also, you know, living away, living on your own, dealing with roommates, in a more controlled setting. It's being just more responsible in certain things, so it's it's sort of a gateway to, you know, adulthood. Yeah. It's a I agree. The shame is is that a so so, basically so this is where I was wrong. Is that I just assumed because there was any problems with the college degree that all college degrees were bad, that it was just bad to get one. So the and the two main problems that I've mentioned are the costs and the the fact that, you don't really learn. It takes 4 years, and so that's 4 years where you could have been learning something you're you're really passionate about and even exploring at at different cheap for with cheaper alternatives what you're passionate about. So it's almost like takes you out of action for 4 years when you could have been putting that to productive use and not getting into debt and maybe even starting to make money. Correct me if I'm wrong. Like, I think colleges and university, they made it pretty hard for you to change, your major. Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. Okay. But, like, yeah, you're right. Like, if I go to Coursera, one day, I could take a course exploring Beethoven's piano sonatas. The next day, I could take a course on artificial intelligence. The next day, I could take a course on create an Instagram post on Adobe Photoshop. So, like, there's a thousands of courses here that are very specific and could be or or much more likely to be I could pick and choose what I'm interested in as opposed to just being forced to take 3 years of Spanish or whatever. I mean, here's a course. It's just it's foundations of positive psychology and work smarter, not harder, time management for personal development. You know what that like mhmm. Go ahead. What is kind of crazy, though, that I I do agree, about is the you know, you you find, like, let's say, you know, a top university that's 70,000 a year, but then there's this 3rd tier university that's the same price. You know what I mean? Like, one of our kids Why are you like, I could understand if you're going to a, you know, one of the top universities maybe, but if you're going to one that's not that great but still paying the same amount that you would going to Yeah. And, look, there's a difference in price between public schools run by the state or It's still high. It's crazy. But, like like, for instance, one of our kids went to a school for a while that was the exact same tuition as Harvard. And this school, if I name the school, you will have never heard of it. It's not a good school, basically. It was the most depressing campus. What my kid wanted to major in, they didn't even have courses in it, and it was horrible. And so Why did she even go? Because she thought all her friends were going, so she had to go. Wow. And, you know, she kids don't think. And then if you say no and so okay. So here's where I was wrong. First off, Robin, like you said earlier, some people really enjoy college, really benefit from it. And for better or for worse, they're willing to go into the debt. They're aware of it, or maybe their parents are paying for it. And it's unfortunate that it's you know, the wealthier kids remain wealthier because they go to college and marry people who went to college. And they're you know, you the the the the most wealthy ones don't have the issues of student loan debt, so their kids probably won't have those issues. And and that kind of increases the gap between the haves and the have nots. But the reality is I do know people who loved college so much. They loved studying philosophy and literature, and and they're writers now. I mean, I basically there's one friend of mine. She wrote a great book called Being Wrong, actually, and she's a writer now for The New Yorker. And I remember when she got her job at The New Yorker, she she wrote me and said if I didn't go to a university, I never would have gotten this job. And that's the last time she spoke to me. So, a very smart person. I highly recommend her book. It's called Being Wrong, and probably it was about me. But, no. I open doors. I mean, especially, again, talking about the top universities. I mean, it really does open doors for you, and they do have a great network, you know, community within those universities. I think that's right. It is what you make of it. Right? So it didn't open doors for me, but I'm not I wasn't really a good networker. And, but but, like, if Your network what did what did they say then? Your network is your net worth. But I built my network later. Like, what happens is after you have a couple of jobs, you do things for people that create value in their lives, and that becomes your real network. Mhmm. So it's not just the kids you partied with when you're 18 years old. It's the people you made money for when you were 30 years old, when you were 40 years old. It was the people who you helped, you know, get their jobs done and and make money and get rich or whatever. And that becomes your real network because those people will will kill for you, hopefully. Sometimes those people are not that way. I I don't know if they I want them to kill for me, but, you know. I mean, I think it's it's each person needs to make this own choice. I mean and there's some things, jobs that you need, you know, a college degree. You know? Well well, like, legally, like, a lawyer or a doctor. Doctor or yeah. Yeah. I mean, quite part of the system. Again, like, I've actually done consulting for law firms on the law. Like, you could learn things on the job, but the system is set up. So, legally, you're required to go to law school in almost every state. And, if or a doctor in particular, someone once asked me, would you rather, you get brain surgery from someone who graduated from Harvard Medical School, or you get brain surgery from someone who didn't have a medical degree? And I thought this was, like, not an interesting question. And this was a very smart person. Like, she was working for Bloomberg, the mayor at the time. And she's asking this, and I said, I would rather get brain surgery from someone who's done a lot of brain surgeries. So that's really it. Like, I don't care where they went to school. I just wanna know that people lived when they gave brain surgery. So they whether they got it as an apprentice or, you know, learn in some way, that's my only criteria. Your reputation is what's most important. Yeah. And I guess college degree is a shortcut for that. Oh, this person went to Harvard, so they probably have a good reputation. Hard. They got it. Yeah. You know who would who I would take the medical advice from? Me. Someone from Twitter. Yeah. I always take my medical advice from people on Twitter, particularly when I'm, like like, having a big painful problem. Let's go on Twitter. Right? Like, WebMD a little bit. Like, hey. If I feel this, this, this, this, this. If I have a rash in unusual places, I'll go to Twitter. Yes. Because that's where I'm gonna meet my people. Yes. It's social media. It's social. I know. Twitter. So that would be funny though if you did tweet something like that. You know what would be even funnier if they actually have, what if, like, Twitter. After Elon Musk bought Twitter, and then they put out this, like, a Google certificate. It's like Twitter certified Yeah. Doctor and stuff like that. You know? Yeah. Oh, that's a great idea. Yeah. They they tweet you all out. Times you you know, the only doctor. Yeah. It's like it's like like Robin said, you know, they will look at everyone's tweet. You know, like, oh, how much time how much have you tweeted about? Ago, we did do a podcast about, people who crowdsource their medical problems. There was a there's a website that does it. Oh, yeah. I remember that. And I signed up for it too. Oh, yeah. You did. Nobody Yeah. Yeah. You did. Nobody Nobody asked you to use my advice. Yeah. Nobody asked me. Let me see if I can find it. I don't even remember the name. I don't yeah. There was there was have a bunch of patients waiting for you. That was at the height of the pandemic, I remember. Yeah. And I was into it. I was, like, commenting on every and then and then as people like your advice, you get promoted to the highest level you could be without having a medical degree. Unfortunately, I never got promoted, but my life dream then was to be, like, almost a doctor on this site. And it's been a big malpractice suit. But but I will say Sonia. No. Your no malpractice was a lot of it bred to that. So I will say, though, I was wrong because I do think if you're aware of all the issues and you really wanna go, here's a little what happened to me. I majored in computer science and is an undergrad. But then when I went to grad school for computer science, I lost interest in it, and I became obsessed with writing. I wanted to write a novel. And so I was writing all the time, which is the reason why I was ultimately thrown out of graduate school. I was writing all the time, and I was reading all the time. So all the books that maybe I could have read in college, I I was reading, like, a book a day just to catch up to what I thought a good writer should read. And so I was reading 100 or even, like, a 1000 thousands of books during this period. And, you know, I could have started that process in college if I had majored in creative writing for instance. But the flip side of that is you look at all the people who graduate from masters of fine arts programs in creative writing, I could tell you the plot of every single book. It's the plot is a failed writer who's now a professor at a small liberal arts college has an affair with one of their students, and their life goes crazy. That's the plot of every single person who got a master's degree in creative writing. That's the plot of their first novel and their second and third novel. Oh my god. And so, so I swear to god. Like, anybody who goes to get it will agree with me who who anybody who goes to a creative writing program will agree with me. That's the plot every novel from from people who graduate those. Because you don't have any experience. You don't get new experience. To write, you have to you have to live life. You can't just live, like, college campuses are great. Like, when we go visit, like, Lily, for instance, at her campus, it's like fantasy land. I wanna live on a college campus. It's like Hogwarts. Professor there. Yeah. It's like Hogwarts. It's amazing. And so that's the other thing too. I have to say I was wrong because I wrote in one of these articles I would never ever send my kids to college. I swear I will never send them. And at least 1, 2, 3 of my kids out of 5 have either have gone 2 of them are in college now, and one of them graduated college, but I didn't know him when he started college. Maybe he would have done differently then. One of my kids, the one who was most forceful about wanting to go, she left college after 2 years, and I'm very proud of her. And she makes good money now. She would have been, like, a senior last year, I guess. She makes good money, and life is good for her. And nobody ever asks her if she has a college degree. By the way Yeah. Does she have a great job? Is she the CEO of a company? No. She's 24 years old. She has the same crappy jobs everyone else has, but no one asks her if she has a college degree. Yeah. And she's super happy. And and you know what? That I I just found this out. Like, do you know you can sign up to be a board member of any company? I think LinkedIn has this, services. It's called Cloud's board or whatever. Like, you can sign up for it, and then they will pair you with, like, any company, and then you can be their board member. Well, let me that that's almost gonna be worthy of another podcast. What? Why? Because pretty cool. Because I used to wanna be a board member of companies because you get stuck and you get Yeah. Sometimes you get paid. It is the worst thing in the world. It took me years to get out of all my board commitments. Like, in 2013, I swore I was never gonna be a board member of any company again. It and it took me, like, 4 years to get out of all my commitments. What? That was I mean, it I felt like it's so cool, though. It's like, I'm the board member. You have to listen to me. Yeah. But okay. Let's say the company let's say the CEO was stealing money from the company, and then the company goes bankrupt because of that. And now the CEO disappears, and all the investors and shareholders have to sue someone, so they sue the board. Holy s**t. And so and then you go to these law possibility. And then you go to these law firms where, like, there's a lawyer who's getting who's charging $600 an hour, and he brings along, like, as an associate. Like, I remember I'm sitting in there in the law firm. It's it's like the the lawyer's name was was Brian, and he kept saying, you know, Matt, what do you think of this? And Matt would keep saying, my name is Bill. And Bill was charging 450 an hour. And what happens is I didn't pay the money. You boards take out 1,000,000 of dollars worth of board insurance, so insurance companies pay it. So and the law firms know that, so they just they don't care. They keep the case going. I just got a message. This was a company I was on the board of in 2011. I just got a message a few weeks ago. The case is finally over. Wow. Yeah. And I I'm I I wrote back to them. I haven't heard from you guys in 8 years. I didn't even know the case was going on. And they said, yeah. It was just it was stuck in the courts, quote, unquote. Oh, dear. Is that the one that is that the one that you just talk about in Wall Street Insane episode 2? No. No. That's I should probably talk about it in in our Wall Street Insane series because that was insane, that company. So a 1,000,000,000 in revenues, and it went bankrupt overnight. It's crazy. And I was so proud of it too. And the stock was doing well, and I had a lot of stock. And, ugh, it was awful. I went broke. So, anyway, here where I was wrong was I do agree that, a, for me, it's hard to say no to my kids. And when they all really wanted to go to college, they were all willing to borrow money, but, of course, I paid for it. I I was stupid, and I should've made them more responsible for it, but whatever. And I couldn't say no. I figured, look. At some point in their twenties, they're gonna have real serious issues, much more serious than college, and I wanna be there for the I want them to come to me then with their problems. And I was worried they wouldn't if I if they hated me for not sending them to college. So, a, I didn't follow my own advice, which you should never do if you give advice. And, b, I do think of the two problems, Robin, you're right. Maybe some kids do better in a college environment. And despite the costs, their lives are better for going to college because they meet people who are interested in the same things as them, come from you know, it's the last time they get to Mhmm. Really directly meet lots of people who are like them, and maybe they wanna do that one last time. And and, you know, I don't believe in the networking thing because I again, I do think you get your network from the value bring to your first few jobs. But it's, I mean, you have to have something behind it. You know, when you like with Lily, she's able to get into these fellowships in the summer, and she's meeting great people, and it's amazing, but it is through her school, but she does you know, she has the opportunity to do it, but she has to show her ability to do these well. I mean, like, they're not gonna have her back, or they're not gonna it's not gonna do her any good if she doesn't work hard and performs, and she's one that is. You know? That's all she's doing is is focusing on that. I've seen her really blossom in in college. My, you know, we have another daughter who, she's she's a great writer. I have to say this one daughter is is much better writer than I was at that age, and I'm very critical. I I don't hold back on on this stuff, I would tell her. And she's majoring in creative writing. And I'm like, why do you have to go to college for this? You're you you already know more than the other kids. Like, you're you're a good writer, and and she never spends any time at all on the campus. She loves her job. She's she's a wait she's a vegetarian, and she's a waitress at a a vegan like, one of the most well known vegan restaurants in New York City. And and she loves the people she works with. She loves her job. She has so much money saved, and she's only 19. I when I was 19 They're 20. They they turned 20. Oh, yeah. They turned 20. I forget. When I was 20, I had no money saved. When I was 27, I had no money saved. I think the first time I saved any money, I was 30. And these kids now have savings. And by the way, I worked. I I worked 5 different jobs when I went to campus. Like, I paid for everything in my college education. I paid for my living. I paid for my tuition. I did That's every year you got loans. Saved? Why? I I didn't I never really paid my I only started paying my debt back when I had money. Yeah. So I was I owed interest. Mhmm. They were going after me as they do. And, so I'm I'm a little more forgiving now of people who argue for college, but I do think it's a real scam what the government did with backing student loans. It it created more income inequality among people. It made college presidents rich. I mean, college presidents make 1,000,000 a year because of the tuitions paid. Mhmm. And and it just inflated the importance of college. Like, there should be more electricians. There should be more plumbers. There should be more car mechanics. I think that's happening now. I think it is too. Well and, also, there's more acceptance of not getting a college degree. These Google certificate programs, Google, one of the smartest companies out there, really led the way with having on, you know, creating an alternative to college. And there's so many great online learning programs. So that's that's my whole college thing. Robin, what what you know? Can I say, like, you didn't work hard? Nope. And and you've been but you had a very successful business in your twenties. You had a a a huge, huge business, which which you did well with, and you've been success you lived all over the world. You've traveled everywhere. You're so smart and knowledgeable about so many things, and you didn't go to college. So and Jay went to college and knows nothing. I I was even I I had I mean, I people had this story before. Like, I was, apparently, I was very Victorian, and I have no idea what does that mean. Like, when they were announcing I don't even know what you just said. Like exactly. Like like, I like, I was graduating in the ceremony or whatever, and then they're like, very Victorian, Jay Yao. Oh, valedictorian. Wow. You were the valedictorian. I have no idea what that means. I'm like, wait. What? Is that like did that did I did something wrong? So I went upstage, looked confused as hell. I take the shirt. I pose for the picture, and then I start walking down the the, you know, the the aisle or wherever. And then I have, like, 5 hours later, when I get back home, I have to Google what is valedictorian. You were number 1 in your class? I didn't know that. Yeah. Apparently, I was, and I have no idea what that means. See, I hired you. I didn't even know that you went to college, and I certainly didn't know that you were valedictorian. Yeah. And now you run the whole podcast. Yeah. So Yeah. By the way, your classmates probably were really grateful that you didn't know a valedictorian was because the worst speeches ever in mankind are valedictorian speeches. So So apparently, they have to honor student to give speeches and not me. Maybe they knew, oh, this Asian guy probably better English anyway. You know? Yeah. Maybe. It was But now you give now you give speed little do they know. Now you give the most widely attended speeches at all the podcast conferences. I know. Like, 30 people show up. More conferences ask you to give talks now than ask me to give talks. No no problem. I don't think they give talks very well. Because I respond. I go to Twitter. I have a speaking agency, and they can't even get me speaking. Well, they can't find you. Yes. They call me. That's true. Do you know where James is? I've got I use Gary Vaynerchuk speaking agency. But yeah. Yeah. I think Maybe I should use them too. You probably should. You're funny. So, anyway, that's this episode of I was wrong. I apologize to all the people who stop being my friends because I was against college. You know, it's a big cognitive bias. It's a big financial decision you make in your life. You know? But it should be the kids' it should also be the kids' decision because, like, whatever you do in your life, if it it's gonna make you feel better about yourself or, I think you should do it. It's it's a journey, and so, you know, it's important how people feel about themselves on the inside. So if it takes going to college or if it takes not going to college or making money instead of college, do it because that's the most important thing, I think. Maybe need to to evaluate what things make you feel good about yourself. Right. So it takes time. Yeah. It takes time. It does take time. And and, you know, again, we have sent kids to college, so I can't I can't be so against it because I have kids in college. So people would say people would say to me, oh, you went to college, so your opinion doesn't count. But that is how I learned that it was worthless to me. But You have to skin in the game. Yeah. I had skin in the game. And and despite the cognitive bias that I had to support college, I was still against it. But because I saw The question is, would they still go if if we didn't pay? I don't know. Well well, they would have a hard time. I you know, I don't know. I have no idea. I felt like if it's if if it's a lot cheaper, then, you know, you you'll be like, yeah. Just go ahead. You know? If it's, like, 10 times cheaper or something. They probably would go if they could take out debt because, again, kids don't care about debt. They think they're just gonna make $1,000,000 a year afterwards, and that solves their debt issues. I don't think our kids think that. Yeah. I mean, like, I'm try like, I am trying to buy a car, and then I'm like, I had to take out a loan for $60. I'm like, I don't know if I wanna do that. Yeah. Do that. That's a lot of money for a car. Just take you know, compare what you spend on Uber per month to what your car rent payments would be per month and see if, it's more because wouldn't you rather have someone else drive you around and it's the same cost? Well, I mean, it's also, like, it's good to have, you know, like, a car so I can drive anywhere I want to. But you don't need a $60,000 car. Definitely not a $60,000 car. Get a nice, good old Ford truck. Well, that that's the thing. Like, they they they're mock up $10,000. Like, it wasn't 60,000, but, like, now it is because they're mock up $10,000 apparently because there's no car anywhere, apparently. Yeah. Used car prices have gone up a lot lately too. Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway That's a whole another story. So I I still think thing on cars. We could do I was wrong about lots of things, but college and housing were things I wrote about quite a bit back then. So and a lot of people were very upset. And now here I am. I own a home, and 3 of my kids go to college. I'm I'm kinda a loser. And 2 don't, so that's 1 dropped out. 1 dropped out. But the thing is is like I'm really proud of her. But the thing is is that they're doing what they wanna do, and and we're supporting that. So I feel like we're doing a good job. You know, we're guiding. You know? If they're they choose to do certain things, I mean, it's like, okay. We'll do do it well. And Yeah. Then As long as they are not breaking the law. Right. And and and they're enjoying it. So you have a really low standard, Jay, for your kids. Kids, as long as you don't break the law They can do well. You're doing well. Keep watching, girl. Yeah. You can do whatever you want. Just do whatever you want. Never let him do that. As long as your mom and dad never let you murder people? No. No. They are like, whatever whatever you do, just don't touch other people neck. Just like a Did they say it in English? Did everybody did did everyone in your house speak English? It it's gonna be it's in Mandarin, but they do speak English. But, you know, like, I'm just translating in, you know Just with, with the with the accent in there just in case. You know? So I kinda wanna make my own college, and I wanna be a professor also because that seems like really fun. I've given lots of any if any professors out there want me to give a guest lecture in their class, I'm available for free. I've done that quite a bit. Yeah. Just as long as you don't say that it you know, going to college is not good. Yeah. Oh, I have said that in classes at NYU and Columbia. So now you wonder why you're not being called back. Yeah. Maybe you have a point. And also you have to respond to emails. So Yeah. I have, let me see. My un my unread emails, unread, is 3 under in in my inbox, not spam, is 374,714. Jesus. Oh, no. I know. I'm right behind you. Jesus Christ like that. Oh, oh, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. 2022. We can't we can't we can't say anything that's, you know, No. You had to wait until Elon Musk buys Twitter, and then you can say whatever you want. Can say whatever you want. Yeah. Alright. Well This was great. It. Go to college. You. Or not. Or not. It's up to you. Up to you. Yeah. I just don't break it off. May maybe, like, I'm older now. I'm a little bit more like, I care less about opinions. I feel like 17 years is a long time, and I was really felt strongly about it. And now I just don't feel as strongly about things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Podcast's over. Okay. Bye. Yeah. Yeah. It was Bye, everyone. Alright. Thank you. Bye.