AA Ep. 186 - Credit Card Debt

Transcript

This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the James Altucher show on the Stansbury radio network. So I've got Simon Rich with me again. Simon, how's it going? Going good. Thanks so much for having me back. Simon, I'm super excited, but I wanna know how you're feeling. Your your TV show that you wrote, Man Seeking Woman, is coming out tonight. The first show is tonight, on on fxx. What time? 10 PM? 10:30. 10:30 EST. 10:30. They they really are pushing you back there. This is they're they're they're making it challenging for you. But how do you feel? 10:30 EST is, like, 2 hours ahead of of, like, where my sketches usually were on SNL. So I feel like I've broken my record. Right. So you're you're moving further and further down the, the clock. Closer to, like, an hour when people would be awake. You you might end up writing sketches for General Hospital soon. That's the goal. That's someday. So what what are you feeling like right now? Like, are you nervous? The the pilot's tonight. Oh, yeah. No. I'm I'm super nervous. You know, it's, it's it's incredibly surreal to think it's actually gonna be on TV. I still can't believe they they let us, make this show. I keep at every at every stage of the creative process, I felt like I was being pranked by f x x. Like like, I I keep expecting them to call and be like, we're not gonna make this crazy show. You know? Well, okay. What what what was the most anxious moment in making the show? So, obviously, you spent some months writing it, then you sent and just to mention it, it stars Jay Baruchel, who I recently saw in This is the End, where he was hilarious. It also is based off your book of short, stories, The Last Girlfriend on Earth. Yeah. It's, it's a, yeah. It's a show called Man Seeking Woman, and it's, a surreal sitcom. So it's it's pretty simple and it's concede it's just a a guy, Jay Barishill, trying to meet women, but, it's full of supernatural elements. So there, you know, there's things like time travel and sex aliens and various forms of monsters and and creatures. But despite all of the complications, it's really just about a a guy looking for love. Yeah. No. I like the combination of there's this overall arc. Like you say, this guy's looking for love. And then, you know, fxx has really been kind of like the place for comedy sitcoms in the past few years. You have The League, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Louie, of course, and now your show. Like, it's you have you have a a really good, you know, cohort of other shows you're going up against there with f x x or we're teaming with. Yeah. Yeah. I've been I've been just shocked from the get go at how much creative freedom they've they've given us. I haven't had this much leeway, you know, in my entire life outside of the pages of a book or, you know, or the or the New Yorker. They just, you know, they're in the pilot, not to give too much away, but, you know, they find out that his ex girlfriend is dating Adolf Hitler. Yeah. We learned we learned his fate to his own death and is a, you know, a 130 years old or so. And so we've got, you know, Bill Hader as a 130 year old Hitler rolling around in a motorized wheelchair, and we never had, you know, any kind of resistance over that. You know, we have we have, multiple decapitations. We've got, you know, Jay is constantly getting dismembered and set on fire. FXX has never once blinked. They, they've they've they've said, you know, go for it, and at every every step of the way. So so I guess what I'm saying is if the show doesn't work, it's entirely my fault. I have f x x's fault. They haven't, gotten in our way. It's it's really it's it's been the most creatively fulfilling year of my life. I feel super lucky that I got to do this thing. Yeah. And let's let's summarize this past year. You you had, the books, Baldrats came out. I don't know, did you have any other books come out this year specifically? I don't think so. I think there was just that one. And, so you worked on this show. And also, you you you've started or or sold the rights to 2 two movies, one for Elliot Allagash and, and one for the the story in spoiled brats, which was based on you and your great grandfather. Oh, yeah. Sellout. Yeah. I'm doing that over with, with Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg. That's been super fun. We're working on that right now. Can I just say this is like this is like part 2 of James being envious of Simon Rich? Like, you get to work on this movie with Seth Rogen while meantime, you're doing a TV show on on fxx. Like, what what stresses you out? Like, what what what has caused anxiety in this past year? Oh, man. You know, it's it's like, I I'm really fortunate to work with a lot of super talented people. My writer's room on the show includes Ian Maxon Graham who's been on the Simpsons for almost 2 decades. I've got Robert Padnik from The Office. I have Sofia Alvarez who's this brilliant New York playwright, and Dan Burke, this, long time onion writer. So I'm surrounded by, like, extremely funny, hardworking, talented people, at all hours of the day. So the only thing that stresses me out is trying to keep up with everybody. You know, I just wanna make sure that, I'm doing good work because everyone really inspires me, and and I wanna I wanna just I just wanna hang with everybody. That's the only thing I'm thinking about is, man, I gotta pitch something that that's that's up to snuff with these people around. And you have you have a lot of experience doing, of course, writing for TV with the the sketches that you would do for for SNL. But, obviously, it's a different type of process doing a whole TV series and working with a a group of writers. What would you say are kind of the main things you you learned doing this process? Well, the biggest thing is just, and and and, you know, this this is something I learned a lot at at Pixar where I was for a little while. It's like, you you you gotta let the story kinda be where it wants to be, and you can't shoehorn things in there. I've I've written novels before. Novels, you kinda can shoehorn things in. Like, some of my favorite funny novels are incredibly digressive and go all over the place. Like, you know, it's it's Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and it's not, like, the most narratively, you know, coherent book. Or, you know, you read something like, you know, obviously, like, any anything by, Roald Dahl, you know, or Joseph Heller. It kinda goes all over the place. Right. But with, like, a with a sitcom or with a film, you really gotta say on story. You can't have any fat. You can't really digress. And so, you know, that's that's one of the things we have in our, you know, writer's room is, like, you know, no digression. And do do you ever feel like I mean, so so obviously, you have a lot of, funny guys working in the writing writer's room, funny guys and and women. And, but you're already you already wrote kind of, like, the skeletons of the stories or really you wrote the whole stories because it's it's based on your collection. What did you learn in terms of them helping you kind of even make these stories or the dialogue even funnier? Well, you know, it's a mix of it. A lot of the premises are are from the book. Like like all the premises in the pilot are obviously from the book. But, I would say probably at least 50% of the kind of basic ideas that you'll see on the show, are not from the book and and and and, you know, we're brainstormed by by my writers. So, they they're definitely, you know, in on the ground floor on most of the episodes. And, you know, a lot of the episodes I didn't write. I, of the 10, I wrote or co wrote, I think 6. So there's, you know, there's a full episode written by Sofia. There's a full episode written by Emax and Graham wrote the finale. And so there's a lot of episodes that, you know, are not are that I didn't even write. So it's like that's what's thrilling about it is that, you know, it it it feels almost like a miracle when you when when to to make something and then have talented writers willing to work on it. And I can't even tell you how gratifying it is. It's it's, it's writing the show is the best the best experience in my life. And did you ever, disagree with any of the decisions they made? Like, you know, when you when you were looking over, let's say, one of the episodes you didn't write, did you ever say no? The, the the Jay character, has to be like this. Or Yeah. I mean, you know, you're always kinda figuring it out together, but it's it's it's way more collaborative than, you know, it's it's not it's and they're like, hanging out at a podium lecturing people. It's it's, it's we're we're all in it together and, and, you know, we do constant table reads. You know, we're constantly reading outlines and scenes and episodes out loud to each other over and over and over again, just to get it right as that And what what what are those reads like? So so you get to work, and everybody's in this room writing or or in their offices writing. Like, what what what happens? Like, what's what's it what's a day like? It varies based on where we are in the process. So, you know, for the first couple of weeks, it's really just brainstorming ideas. And then the chunk of time spent, you know, what we call breaking the stories where we actually think, okay. What's the you know, what are the order of events going to be? And as we're doing that, we're thinking about, you know, our character arcs and, like, what are these what are these people what's wrong with these people? It's basically a simple what's wrong with these people? What do they keep doing wrong? What are they gonna have to learn? And start to maybe hopefully do a little bit right. And then you kinda, you know, where do we want these characters to start? Where do we want them to end up? And and with like like, in the in the Hitler pilot, Yeah. You know, what type of what are you thinking? Like, what what changes between that between the TV episode and the short story? Well, a ton. Right? Because the the the, the the stories are really just scenes. Right. And, and so they don't really stories don't don't really need something big needs to happen, and a big change needs to take place, but a character doesn't actually need to necessarily grow as much. A story can kind of end with a character realizing something about themselves or facing the truth, you know, that that that they they've been hiding from. It can be a pretty subtle change, but but with a a piece of, like, script television, you want the change to be a little bit bigger. You want it to be, you know, more of a more of a proper art. It's just more satisfying. So, like, in the pilot, Jay is really bad at you know, he's really as as nervous and afraid to talk to women. And in the end, he he manages to get a girl's number on the train, which is a for him, a big achievement and, you know, it's it's such a big achievement that in the world of the show that he he wins the MacArthur Genius grant for his, for his efforts and gets a congratulatory phone call from the president of the United States because that's how excited he feels now that he's actually overcome this this fear and and, sucked it up and and taken a risk. That that that's funny because it see it's it always seems like and this is true for your for your stories and it sounds like it's true true for the TV series. You take this premise, which is very stressful, like it's hard for a guy to ask a woman for her phone number, and then you you kind of come up with the most extreme outlandish, you know, outcomes that, like the president of the United States calls him and he wins a Genius Award. So Yeah. You know, was that That's it. That's my whole gimmick. Then No one can do it. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you about that. More to that. But but does so that works well, obviously, in story, and I'm sure it works well in in TV. But, was it hard kind of taking the these these absurdist kind of concepts? Like, oh, his ex girlfriend's going out with Hitler and translating that to TV? Like, is there ever a moment where you're afraid you're gonna lose the, viewer because it's too absurd? I mean, you know, that that's sort of the, that's a really good question. I mean, the, you're you're if if you're in danger of losing the viewer, it means that at some point you in my book, it means at some point you've taken a wrong turn. You know, if it if it if it isn't relatable, if it if it isn't grounded, if it isn't universal, then you kinda you've lost at some point. You know? Everything in the show, it's my hope that everyone watching it will be able to say, oh, yeah. You know, I've been there. Yeah. I like how And if they're not, you know, if if it doesn't produce that reaction in the viewer, then it's a failed premise. Well, in the in the clip I saw because I saw watched one of the clips they released was the Hitler clip. And, I like how it gets grounded very quickly with a lot of dialogue. Like, you know she's seeing somebody. So it's dialogue that would be natural with with, oh, your ex girlfriend's seeing somebody and he's here, and then it's intermixed with kind of the absurdist elements even though there's Totally. And, like, in the troll exam a clip that was released, she's a troll, which is absurdist, but then there's this brought down to reality, like, hey, you know, you're not so hot yourself. So Yeah. You know, I Yes. I like how so so I'm I'm figuring out the Simon Rich technique, as I go along with this. You know, and it's not like I invented it. I mean, that's that's been a hallmark. You've started the theater for decades. And and, you know, it's like that's sort of the thrill of it is is how do you juxtapose, naturalism and and and realistic dialogue alongside, major supernatural elements. So so along the way with all of this, you've had, like, a very, I would almost say, traditional route. Like, you you you, wrote for SNL. You have incredibly funny books. It's, like, 4 collections of of stories, 2 novels. You you, now you're gonna be working on these movies. You're working on this TV show. It's like this incredible career. If someone was just starting out, what recommendations would you have for them? Like, let's say someone's working, like, a cubicle job at Procter and Gamble, but really secretly wants to be a sitcom writer. What should they do? Gosh. You know, I I would say, How how would they get your eye? You know, like, for let's say you're you're hiring writers for the next season. How would they Yeah. Yeah. Well, the the writers I hired, you know, they came from, like, a a lot of different backgrounds. I didn't read any spec scripts. You know, I didn't read any versions of other people's scripts. I'll tell you that. I didn't read any, like, you know, here's how I would write a parts and rec. I read only original, pieces. Oh, like, like, dialogue pieces, like screenplay style? I read I read I read, plays. I read, articles. I read short stories. I read original pilots. I read original screenplays. I watched stand up comedy. I looked everywhere, you know, and and, I just picked the the writers I thought were best regardless of what genre they were working on, regardless of what medium they have written in, and just hired him. Like like the onion guy, was did you just call him cold? Like, hey. I love your stuff at the onion, and can you come work on this show? He's written a play, actually. Dan Merck, which I read, which, is unbelievably funny. I'm your laptop. I'm gonna look it up so I can tell everybody listening on the radio to to check it out. It's called, I'm sorry. I think it's called A Man With An Umbrella Stuck Through His Head. A a man with an umbrella stuck through his head. I appreciate that's what it was called. But it's a hilarious play by Dan Merck. And, it's just about a guy with a who had an accident where a a brightly colored umbrella happened through the eyeball, and he's in a hospital, you know, ER kind of slowly dying. But as he's dying, of this terrible misfortune, he sort of gradually becomes an Internet celebrity because, because it's pretty funny looking. K. And, it's about his, simultaneous ascent to the top of the media sphere, and descent into into text. And this is incredibly funny. But what I loved about it is, you know, it's everything I love. It was a juxtaposition of of, you know, an extremely high stakes, violent, absurdist premise with perfectly written natural dialogue. And how did how did he get his play into your hands? Like, how did you see the play? He was repped by CAA. I see. You know, I he's he was in the mountain of you know, when you when you when you have a new show, every every agency on earth sends you, like, you know, a 100 scripts, and you just get this pile of it. You know, you can't believe the size of it, and you just you know, it was it was a it was a long time. It was, like, a couple of months reading. I remember thinking, you know, it'd be faster for me to just write all these episodes myself than to, than to read all of this. But now looking back, I'm so happy that I did because I found these incredible all stars, and their their episodes are better than mine. So I'm really, you know, I'm really grateful that I I, that I found them and and happy that I took the time to read all that stuff. Who told you that you that you couldn't do that? That you couldn't who told you that you couldn't just write all the episodes yourself? I knew. I mean, I knew in the back of my mind, like, just from experience, you wanna be you you wanna be, surrounded by talented people. You know, they they push you to work harder and and you learn from them. And everybody has different skills. You know? If you have 5 great writers in a room, they're not all gonna be good at the same things. You just want you you want you want as more smart people around as possible. I mean, it's just common sense. I, I Ian Max and Graham, he has a quote that he told me where he he said that, if you're ever in a situation where you look around and you feel like you're the funniest, smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. That's a good quote. You you need to get to a better room. You wanna feel like you're barely holding up. And so I've always tried to, yeah, seek out rooms like that where, you know, where I feel like, man, I've been out below it here. Well and, so so were were there any writers that you pursued that rejected you, that you really wanted, that rejected going, you know, working for the show? Yeah. We and we couldn't we we couldn't get everybody we wanted, because, you know, we're a small cable show, and, we we only had so many slots that we, you know, that that we have the budget for. And that's, you know, there's a lot of great writers out there, and you can't hire all of them. And that's hard. So so okay. So for for someone wanting to, like, let's say, break into comedy, what are what are 3 and this is kind of like a a very basic question, but what are, like, 3 tips you would get for writers that you would give? Like, just the basic 3. Well, I would I wouldn't I would, just make something great and not worry about, like, whether or not it fits into any kind of economic landscape. You know, nobody told Dan Murphy to go write, you know, to go write an, an umbrella through somebody's brain play. You know? He just wrote it because he wanted to write it, and it was great. And, you know, it it was put up in some tiny theater and the script made the rounds, and then he got a TV job. You know? It's it's it didn't, like, set out to get a TV job. He made something great and then somebody found it. So I would say just make something great, whether that's, like, a great 10 minutes of stand up comedy or a short play that you're gonna write and put on with your friends at a small theater or I mean, the the fastest route is to create a great thing to stick it online. That's the that seems to be, like, the way to to get there right now. If I were young and starting out, the only thing I would do is make Internet videos all day long. That that's funny. So, like, what what would be an example that you might consider for an Internet video? Really, any of the clips that I saw, from from Man Seeking Woman would would be good as as Internet videos as well. Thanks. Yeah. I hope so. I hope they you know, you never know with those things. You always hope that they somehow, like, hit a nerve. I've never been good at predicting what what is and what isn't, though. Well, what's interesting is it reminds me of, like, how, the you know, Jimmy Fallon's tonight show is very YouTubable. Like, you could kind of take different segments and easily put them on YouTube and they and they stand alone. It seems like a lot of the segments in the show and I don't know this because I haven't because, obviously, the episodes aren't out yet, but it seems like there's stand alone clips within the show that are very YouTube able. Thanks. Yeah. That's the hope. You know, that's that's sort of my dream is, like, that it's kinda not to get too pretentious, but, you know, that it's sort of like a Russian nesting doll where it works on a scene by scene level, but then it also works, you know, the on an episode to episode level, and then it also works on a season to season level. So, you know, you have stand alone set pieces, but then every episode has a has a, you know, has a narrative, and then also the seasons have a have a larger narrative. So that's been that's been the goal. You know? I'm I'm not sure we a 100% pulled it off, but that's that's definitely what we're going for. And and how will you know, like, how will you how will you judge your success on this? Like, how many is there a certain, like, millions number of millions that have to watch it? Or when do you find out if you're, like, on the, renewed for a second season, the whole thing? I don't know when we find out about that. You know? And it's yeah. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't nervous because, you know, it is a really strange show. It's it's it's it's it's strange, but, you know, all all of those fxx shows, have some elements of absurdism, like, you know, from Louie to It's Always Sunny and and everything. But yours yours definitely takes it to a new level, it seems. Yeah. It's pretty it's pretty out there. So, you know, I I it's I just feel, really grateful that they let us do it. And, no matter what happens, like, I'm, like, overjoyed that this these 10 episodes are gonna exist in the world, you know, that we're gonna have this, 220 minutes of, of content, you know, that that we got to make. And I'm really proud of it and just grateful and thankful that we got to do it. And, so I'm trying to just focus on that. You know, the the the reason why it's nerve wracking is because it was so much fun, and I wanna make more. You know, that's and it it it was really my dream job. You know? And it also might it it was the best year of my life. And so, you know, obviously, I'm I'd love to have another year like it. But, you know, at this point, it's kinda out of my hands. So I'm just trying trying to be, grateful that I got a year like this. But now now what's next, though? Is you you're working with, Seth Seth Rogen on the the first movie, and then I think Jason Reitman you're working with on Elliot Allagash as a movie? Yeah. I'm working on a lot of different movies and, you know, a lot of different, stories, and I'm always working on a book or 2. And, yeah, just kind of we got a list of projects that I'm always working on. And, I Is Seth Rogen do a lot of different things at once, you know, to try to keep busy. Oh, are are Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg actively involved in the writing process on the movie? Or have they kinda, like, bought the writing process for the movie? Are you not involved with that? Say it again? I'm sorry. Are they Are Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg, are they actively involved in the writing process of the movie? I mean, you know, I'm the writer, so so I I write the draft, but they're they're, they're we're all executive producers. So, after each draft, we all read it. We all sit down together, and we, you know, we all try to make it better. And and, their notes have been excellent. I think that every you know, they're they're extremely smart. They're obviously incredibly funny. They really get movies and and, their their notes have been fantastic. What's an example the draft. What what's an example note where you wrote you wrote a scene, you got the note from one of them, and it was just funnier than what you had? Oh, I mean, I it's hard because I don't wanna give any give away anything about the, about about an in progress screenplay. But, you know, they're always they they're they're they're great at jokes, of course, but it's when when you're doing a movie, the jokes are almost, like, secondary or even tertiary concern. I mean, the biggest thing with the movie is is the story working? Are the characters moving in the right direction? Is the pacing right? Is it high enough to take? You know, those are the only things you're really thinking about. The actual, like, jokes and, like, one liners, those kinda come along the way. But you can't you can't really build a build a movie on jokes. The only thing you can really build on jokes is, like, a stand up comedy routine or sometimes a sketch, but even a sketch built around jokes often doesn't work. You know, like, really, it's opening monologues on talk shows is really where where straight ahead jokes are king. Everywhere else, they're kinda secondary. Well well, it's interesting because with the 3 tips for writers, you started off with the first tip saying, you know, write something great. Don't think about kind of the economic landscape. But you've mentioned also this concept of of high stakes. And so setting aside the the the aspect of, you know, high stakes combined with jokes, what are, like, you know, what for you qualifies as a high stakes premise? You know, it's it's pretty subjective. Right? I mean, that it's it's it's like saying, like, what what you know? It's all about execution to a certain extent. Right? Like, say it's, you know, is a is a, is a is a is a little boy going to, be able to save an alien from some doctors? And then, like, is that high stakes? Like, how can you tell? Like, I have you got if you got that on a piece of paper and read it, you'd be I don't know. But then when you watch ET, you're like, woah. Nothing can be higher stakes, you know, than whether or not Elliot states this creature. You know, my my my heart and soul are racing. I hope to god that that he pulled it off. You know? So so a lot of it is in is in the execution. It's never a good idea to, like, say an idea is definitely gonna work or definitely not gonna work when, you know, you never really know until you try it out to a certain extent. But I think, you know, for me, I'm always trying to, for me, it's always like the the definition of whether or not it's high stakes is, like, is it emotionally visceral? Like, you know, is it does it tap into, like, a an extreme feeling, like fear or, you know, loss or or, you know, or Yeah. Because it seems like if you can tap into that, then you allow yourself to get as absurd as possible with it. Like, as long as you're tapping into a real feeling, then you just run with it. Yeah. Exactly. So that's, you know, ET. I mean, you know, one of the one of the great new movies of all time. It's, you know, it's about friendship and about the being an outsider and loneliness. And then, you know, these these are incredibly visceral, universal emotions. And and, you know, and then, yeah, it's also about an alien. But, you know, at its core, it's obviously about something very simple and very human. And how was it, working with Jay Baruchel on the show? Oh, man. He was the best. That guy is so good. Like, the He was so good. I couldn't I couldn't believe how how I mean, I knew he was funny, and I had been a fan of his for years. But, talk about grounding, you know, a show. He he played everything so naturalistically, so relatable. He was just he was just a killer throughout. And and, also, you know, just, like, on a professional level, just a really, like, talent aside, like, really good sport. I mean, we we put this guy through hell on the show. I mean, we set him on fire. We, you know, we cut off his arms. I mean, really, like, we he had to, you know, fight an alien overlord, you know, wearing nothing but a, but, like, a a pair of, like, you know, of tight underwear. And then he's been he's been through hell and back for us, and he never complained. He was always just like, yeah. Cool. Like, bring it on. So, That's great. So on a, creative and professional level, he was awesome. And, of course, he was playing you, basically. Well, I mean, I like to think I mean, it's it's my hope that he was playing, you know, you know, specific character, but my hope is that the stories in the in in the show are universal enough that So everyone will see it everyone will see themselves in it. That's the that's the hope is that everyone watching will be like, oh, yeah. I've I've been there. So so 3 just just to just to close this off, because I know you're you're you're busy guy. Man Seeking Woman is airs tonight, 10:30 PM, fxx. It's the pilot, so I'm really excited to watch it. What are what are the final what are 3 things you would recommend reading or watching that kind of, sort of inspired you as you were writing this the collection of stories in the series? Oh, cool. Good question. I would say, The Adventures of Pete and Pete. I don't know that one. What is that? Awesome, absurdist, children's sitcom. It was, on Nickelodeon in the nineties. Extremely funny and, moving and, very, very bold. Oh, let's check that out. The Adventures of P&P. The Adventures of P&P. Great show. I would say, anything by Kurt Vonnegut. You know, just the way he he blends, high stakes realism with, you know, science fiction and horror and and all these other genres. I I think that he's about as funny and and interesting, a writer out there. I I just I just just, to mention, I just finished rereading, breakfast of champions, and I had forgotten how absurdist it was. Like and I I thought it was really great. Oh, it's great. And god bless you, mister Rosewater. And Yeah. Yeah. I just think that I think he's the best, maybe. And then I would say, you know, I gotta go with, Kids in the Hall, you know, which is is my favorite sketch show of all time. Even though we're not a sketch show and we're we're a sitcom, you know, I think we all of us in the room were incredibly inspired by the the kind of tone and boldness of that of that show. And, and we got to we got to bring in Mark McKinney, and Mark McKinney is a a series regular. He plays, Jay's stepdad. So or the man who is dating Jay's mother, Tom. So yeah. So we got to work with Mark McKinney, which is total dream come true. Well, Simon, good luck. Hopefully, you could come back for the, when when the second season starts as well. Hey, man. Yeah. Knock on wood. If if we make it, I'll be there. Excellent. Well well, good luck tonight, and I I will talk to you soon. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. Thanks. Bye. Bye. For more from James, check out the James Altucher show on the Stansbury Radio Network at stansburyradio.com, and get yourself on the free insider's list today.