380 - Henry Winkler: "The Fonz" On Finding Your Identity Again

Transcript

This message comes from BetterHelp. Can you think of a time when you didn't feel like you could be yourself? Like you were hiding behind a mask? BetterHelp online therapy is convenient, flexible, and can help you learn to be your authentic self so you can stop hiding because masks should be for Halloween fun, not for your emotions. Take off the mask with BetterHelp. Visit better help.com/ new direction today to get 10% off your 1st month. That's better help, h e l p.com/newdirection. This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the James Altucher show on the Stansbury radio network. Great. So, Loretta, I'm so excited to have you on my podcast. Your your books have been I it's fair to say they've had a huge impact on me, and I've probably plagiarized you quite a bit. So I hope that's okay with you. Do you give my name when you plagiarize me? Never. But but I am gonna totally tell people that they should read your books because the 2 books are that I that have the biggest impact on me were Meet Your Happy Chemicals and IMAML. And I've I've probably read both of them cover to cover at least 2 or 3 times. They're they're great books. And Oh, great. In in I'm gonna try to describe them, but then you can correct me and we'll just we'll just go off. So so Meet Your Happy Chemicals talks about, the neurochemicals in our bodies, like serotonin, dopamine, endorphins, and oxytocin that actually give us feelings of happiness. So often people write to me and say, are you happy? And I don't I think they're they're conflating happiness with not understanding these the the neurochemicals that actually cause happiness that as you put it, get metabolized fairly quickly in the body, and so you can't be always happy all the time. So so so that's Yeah. One book. And I wanna dive into that because I I sometimes get confused between the neurochemicals. And the other book is imamel, which basically discusses that it's not we always think our brain is sort of the verbal decision making prefrontal cortex of our brain, but that's only a small part. We have this whole mammalian brain that's existed for 3000000 years and has evolved and is really the cause of much of our feelings of happiness or unhappiness or security or insecurity and so on. And you you dive into that. So okay. Did I how did I do? Fabulous. The only thing you said a little different from what I would say when you said 3000000 years, and, of course, this stuff can't really be quantified, but I usually say 200000000 years. Okay. Fair enough. The significance of that is that that's the time that reptiles evolved into mammals, and mammals seek out other mammals for safety, whereas reptiles avoid other reptiles. And it's the belief that you're in danger if you're not in the herd. It's the the neurochemical feeling that when you're away from your herd, you're in mortal danger. So that's So so this, that one sentence leads to so many things. So for instance, you you have a blog post. So you I should say also you have inner mammal institute.org. You have a blog, and, your most recent post is why it's always high school in your brain. And I remember this happens in high school, it happens on in jobs, it happens in any kind of community that you associate yourself with. If you feel like you're being pushed off to the side, it's almost like the feeling of a mammal being left off the herd and the danger of that is that then a predator chasing the herd can eat me. Exactly. Exactly. And by the way, do you mind if I mention that, my blog is on psychologytoday.com. It's called your neurochemical self, and that's mentioned on my website, the link. So all that's on my website is my favorite post. So why it's always high school in your brain was first because that's my favorite post. So thank you so much. Oh, I see. So so so okay. Let's let's first, let's go over the neurochemicals because I think people, mistakenly have as a goal, they want happiness all the time. So there's 2 mistakes there right away, which is goal and happiness. But let's what what is what is dopamine, and how does it make us happy? Okay. So dopamine is the feeling that you're about to meet a need. So if you were dying of thirst and there was a glass of water that was, like, 2 miles away, and you knew that in 2 miles, you were gonna get your you were gonna get your glass of water, then dopamine would give you a good feeling immediately even before you got the water, and that good feeling would release your energy that gives you the power to make that final burst to meet your needs. So you could think of a a lots of real life applications, but the bottom line is that once you've had the water, then you know, once you've had enough water, then a glass of water doesn't make the slightest bit happy. So dopamine is there to make you feel good, and the feel good is not just psychological, but physiological, releasing your energy to take the next step toward your needs however your brain has defined your needs. So so it's interesting. There's a couple of, things there. So let's say let's say entrepreneurship. So most startup businesses fail and yet many people attempt to be entrepreneurs. It maybe it's the case that the beginnings of entrepreneurship trigger a lot of dopamine, so that kind of drives you forward even though the statistical odds might be against you. Yes. Exactly. And it's all because of expectations. So, like sort of Pavlov's dog that expected to get a steak when it heard the sound of the bell. So an entrepreneur expects to meet a need if he engages in this business activity. And again, I'm not criticizing that it's right or wrong. It's we all wire ourselves with all kinds of expectations, and it and once we understand that that expectation is just a circuit that got connected for some random reason. And a big part of this is mirror neurons. So mirror neurons trigger you when you observe someone else getting a reward or avoiding pain. So if I saw people in the past getting rewarded for x y z behavior, then that wired me to say, oh, so that's the way to get rewards or that's the way to avoid pain. You know, it's interesting about the mirror neurons, and I've I've described this a lot in my own blog. But, like, before I do public speaking, I watch on YouTube, I watch stand up comics because I always feel stand up comics are the best public speakers. And even though I'm not a stand up comic, I feel like if I watch it right before I'm supposed to speak, then my mirror neurons will trigger what they are doing in me. So I'll I'll give a better talk, and I I find that that works. Fabulous idea. Much better than the the new thing about raising your hands up so that you're bigger than a bear. Yeah. I and so so I've heard about that that, you know, you have to kind of if you practice certain body stances, but I forget if it was you now or or someone else who wrote that that that act body stances won't work unless you actually have the inner feelings that those body stances are supposed to create. I absolutely agree. I I was not the one that wrote that because I I I have tried not to focus on attacking other people's work, but I absolutely agree with you. Now now let's say I want to always feel dopamine because it is always a good feeling. Is there is there a you know, this is me this is me not being really stupid, but, like, is there a food I can eat or a drug I could take to to have, like, constant I wanna have a higher level of dopamine than other people. Because if you constantly have a low level of dopamine, then my guess is you don't really try new things that often. Very good question. Okay. 1st, just to be really frank since you asked the question that way. You would be a cocaine addict if you wanted to be soaring on dopamine all the time. Is that what cocaine does? Like, cocaine, like, releases dopamine in your body? Yes. You know what I've heard you've heard of serotonin reuptake inhibitor. Cocaine is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor. So that means whatever dopamine you have, instead of uptaking it like, instead of your body only releasing it for a short time, it releases it for a longer time. So you have the illusion that you're, going toward a goal, reaching a goal, finishing a marathon while you're sitting on the couch, eating Coke pizza. I see. That's fascinating. So okay. So serotonin reuptake inhibitors are antidepressants. Right? Like, what's an example? And cocaine is yeah. But so let's move on because I don't wanna absolutely I am absolutely absolutely not suggesting that. Okay. Are there any are there any foods that, help with a a higher level of I'm not saying a surge of dopamine. I'm just saying how to have a general higher level of dopamine or how to be more receptive to, dopamine. Yes. This is a fascinating subject because, I am often surrounded by people who, expect the nutritional approach to work, and people write to me. So I was just researching this recently, and a precursor chemical in your body to make dopamine is called Tyrosine, and Tyrosine comes from protein, and the first thing is red meat. So I was looking on Wikipedia, and it lists this long list of protein, chicken, fish, turkey, eggs, blah blah blah, and it didn't say red meat. And I actually wrote them a letter, like, oh, I you're trying to edit reality for I don't know. But, anyway, protein is important to make dopamine. And, again, it's not I'm sure there's, like, the the surge, but if you eat, like, let's say, a little bit of red meat consistently, will that keep a higher general level of receptivity to dopamine? Or does it wear off? Make sure if you make sure you get your regular amount of protein and, you've heard the idea that it's important to eat protein in the morning. If you if you heard that one, like, most people don't, but that would be good, I think. Yeah. Tim Tim Ferris, for instance, in his, slow carb diet or whatever he calls it, he recommends you wake up and have 30 grams of protein first thing. Yeah. Yeah. I I mean, I'm I'm not familiar with the quantity, but, yes. I think that's that's that's the idea. But so just to be sure that that won't necessarily make you high on dopamine, but it will make sure that you have the raw material so that when your brain wants this but, again, how much how much do I really want this? Because if I'm always, let's say, if I'm always running a marathon, I can always make the dopamine to sustain the marathon lifestyle. And then what? Then I don't have the other things in my life. So that's what I write in one chapter that I'm already good at dopamine, so maybe I'd be better off focusing on an oxytocin project. But that's gonna be harder for me, but then I will enjoy it more because even a tiny bit more oxytocin, I'll feel it more. We're dopamine you know, people say, oh, I feel like I'm on the rat race, but I can't get off. They wanna blame society for having them in it, but really they can't get off because they don't know any other ways to be happy. So it's interesting. So I was gonna hit oxytocin next because it seems like that's the one most closely that people associate with happiness, I would say. I I it seems that way to me. Like, if you're if you're constantly finding ways to trigger oxytocin, you're gonna feel pretty good throughout the day, and you don't have to, like, take cocaine to do it. Like, there's there's lots of healthy ways to get to trigger oxytocin. I I I don't excuse me. I don't totally agree with that because well, first, when you say it's what works, that is the current fad. So the current fad is that the key to happiness is to hang out with your friends. And in college classes on happiness, they're telling people, yeah, the way to happiness is hang out with your friends. I don't that's what that's that's popular to tell that to students, but I think that's really, like, all of these. It's just one element. The reason is every one of these has a downside. So the downside of oxytocin is that I want a sense of belonging, but the minute I feel a sense of belonging, then I feel constrained by the group. You always have the risk of distancing from the group if you pursue your own goal to stimulate your dopamine and serotonin. But when you distance from the group, you worry about your group bonds. But then when you're with the group, you feel like they're missing out. They're causing you to miss out. So it's always a trade off. Oh, and by the way, just, Deborah Cannon, I'm I'm quoting her. She said it's really long. She had a chart, and the name of her book is so funny. It's called, I always say this because I love you. So I think that sort of evokes that manipulated feeling you have when too much of your happiness is invested in your group bonds. And so so you kinda mentioned this. You you I I love this blog post you have about movies that are great examples of neurochemicals in action. And you talk about Mean Girls and how where your status is in the herd, which which in Mean Girls is it's Lindsay Lohan in a high school. That's the herd. This triggers your neurochemicals in various ways. And and, like, Lindsay Lohan becomes essentially the beta male of her group. Like, she's number 2 behind the alpha male. And so that triggers, I guess, a lot of, serotonin and oxytocin, but it's also like a high stakes position to be in because you could lose that second that number 2 status, and you're also not the alpha male in the herd. Yes. I have a blog post called, is it worth being beta guy based on the movie, about the relationship between Carl Jung and Sigmund Freud. So Carl Jung was the beta guy for quite a while, and then he's like, I don't need this. I'm gonna be the alpha. So it's very controversial. Some readers have written to me with the opposite point of view about beta, so I won't debate that, but the bottom line is your brain cares about your status. And everybody hates to admit this, but everybody sees it in others. Now the idea that you you your serotonin goes up when you feel that your status goes up. It's really mind blowing. That's what got me into all this, and I don't read it anywhere. So where I found this was in research from the eighties, and it's disappeared, and the researchers disappeared. And no one wants to talk about it, and so I'm talking about it. And by the way, I just did a new I'm doing a talk tomorrow called the nature of hierarchy and the curse of social comparison. So I put this on my website, slideshow with that talk, and it's on slideshow. It's on my website, intermentalinstitute.org.org/socialcomparison. I I love I love the idea of that because I find even even with myself, like, you there's always metrics that people use to judge themselves, and you mentioned this a little bit like, did you get a lot of pages on your blog or did did you, you know, are are you moving forward in some kind of artificial social hierarchy or are you moving backwards? Like, people kind of define their metrics. How much money do you have versus how much money you don't have or what's your ranking in some sport versus is it going up or is it going down? And these could be How much money is your cousin making? Yeah. Yeah. So so some that your mother always talks about. There there there's that saying I I forget the exact joke, but there's a saying that, happiness is when you're when you make more than your brother-in-law and unhappiness is when you make less than your brother-in-law. Yeah. And someone really means that it's not enough to win, other tough to lose. Yeah. So so That's how the mammal brain works. It's and we have to moderate it. What I always say is I can't eat every pizza I see. I can't have sex with everyone that I like, and therefore, I can't have all the status that I want. It's just another one of those mammalian impulses that we have to control. So I it sounds like part of this is we wanna live, you know, given that these neurochemicals have both upsides and downsides. The upsides being simply, happiness in various ways and the downsides being, you know, feelings of being left out or not achieving enough or being depressed. Being aware of this that that that it's a function of neurochemicals that are 200,000,000 years in in in a process of evolution, being aware of this seems like the first step towards, at least reaching kind of a state of calm that you could ride the ups and downs. Absolutely. And one more part of that is not just what the neurochemicals do but what turns them on in your individual brain is built from your past. Anything that turn these chemicals on in my past, paved neural pathways, even if it could have been the stupidest random experiences. And anything that turned them on before I was 20, built superhighways in my brain because of, myelin which turns neural pathways into superhighways, and you only have it when you're young. Right. So for instance, I'm just gonna take a big example. If your mother always called you ugly when you were a kid, then that's gonna build some myelin pathway where you constantly feel you're ugly, and then you're gonna need, various neurochemicals to overcome that feeling. Well, another way to overcome it would be this is the whole focus of my work is there's no solution to anything except to build another circuit. So what other circuit so how can I feel what are you trying to feel with the ugly? You're trying to feel accepted, but you're also trying to feel respected, the for the serotonin and the oxytocin. So what's another way other than my appearance to feel accepted? What's another way other than my appearance to feel respected? And just focus on those and don't even think about my attractiveness. So that's my idea. I see. So you you would you would say, okay. What what neurochemicals is this triggering this feeling of, let's say, ugliness? Is it am I gonna lose status because I think the the good looking kids in high school have status and I won't have status? And then you look for other ways to, maybe boost your serotonin, which is related to the status. So maybe, being a better leader or, being more of a a a a giving person. I don't know. Other ways to kind of replace, this feeling of lack of status. Absolutely. And I and that was what I said was half of it. The other part of it is belongingness, which you it would seem to be obstructed if your mother said you're ugly. And you could say, well, no. But people want to include me not for my looks, but because of whatever. However, what what therapists the one thing I think, you know, they're good for, is that if you're driven if you're so driven to prove something because of an early injury, then let's say I'm getting it respect in this other way and belonging that other way that I have said over those other ways because I'm running from that early pain, then there's tremendous value in understanding the early pain. And, again, the other the early pain is only a circuit. And every time I'm tempted to go into that, you know, do the beautiful people hate me to say, okay. That's just a circuit. It's a cortisol circuit. So I don't want my book about cortisol circuits. And so what's what's the the best way in general to because, obviously, we don't really we can't really identify what they're so deeply ingrained in us, these myelin pathways, these neural circuits that what's the best way to go about noticing, oh, this must be just a negative circuit I have. Now I'm gonna try to overcome it. Like, what's what's kind what's a method to to, you know, deal with these things? Well, thank you for asking. So, I'm The hardest possible question. It's the hardest possible question. So that's why I asked. Oh, really? Oh, well no. Well, that's the whole point of my book is the method. So I have the 45 day method and the 3 minute method. So, so I guess in the short run, they obviously the 3 minute method is is the 3 minute method is more popular, but it takes 45 days to build a new circuit. So I have lots of resources, in my book and my slide shows about this. So what does it take to build a new circuit after you're 20? It takes lots of repetition. And even with the repetition, it works better if you have neurochemicals to take the new pathway. So first, I'm gonna choose the alternative behavior that I'd rather have, and then I'm gonna think of a way that I can stimulate that alternative behavior. And then I'm gonna repeat it every day. But I know that I'm gonna feel crappy during those 45 days because I really wanna stimulate happiness in my old way even though that old way had bad consequences. So for those 45 days, I'm gonna give myself a little space to feel crappy and not to judge it every minute, not to say, oh, I gotta do something right away to feel better, to have the confidence that on day 46, I'm gonna feel good without whatever old crush I had. But now I'm gonna feel good in the new way that I designed. So so and you give as an example in various places. Like, if I'm feeling lonely, I might reach for a doughnut. And and that might be I might not realize what initially caused that connection of of loneliness to donuts, but donuts make me feel better. So I might as well use them to replace, the unhappy feelings I have about loneliness. And you suggest that for the fur if you wanna avoid that habit, don't eat that donut for the 1st 45 days whenever you feel that urge, but for 44 days, you're gonna be feeling pain. You're gonna wanna reach for that donut. Yes. Absolutely. And to accept the pain, allow the pain, and, just to go into a little bit more why does the doughnut work. So there's a few steps. The first thing is the sugar and the fat in the doughnut. In the state of nature, people were hungry and desperate, and sugar and fat is like, wow. This really meets your needs. And that freed you from a whole day of foraging and negotiating for food. So that's why it triggers the dopamine. In the modern world, when you're not starved, then then, you know, you have the go you have the donut. You get a little dopamine, but it doesn't meet a real need. So what does your brain say? Oh, I don't know what else to do. Maybe another donut because that's the only thing that gave me even a little bit. So it's your fear of facing that moment where you're not having that solution to the pain. So then, well, what is the pain? It's not just what what is the loneliness? Well, there's also I'm angry because I wasn't included in x, y, and z. And so by having the doughnut, I'm taking the power to say those jerks don't have the power to stop me from having this doughnut. So, like, you're muddling a lot of different primal motivation from the past, and it's just a circuit, a myelinated circuit. What what if there's no doughnut involved here? Like, for instance, let's say you're an entrepreneur and you lose a client. Or let's say you're a blogger and you're worried your page views are gonna go down, which means less people like you or less people are, loving your message. In in in some sense, less people are loving you. And there's no donut, but there's just negative self talk. Like, oh god. I I'm I'm I'm feeling like a loser now. Like, nobody likes me. Like, what's what's a way kind of taking advantage of the knowledge of neurochemicals? What's a way to kind of get through that? Great question. So the first one is to separate well, first, let's call it cortisol. Okay? Cortisol is the universal cause of bad feelings, let's say. I'm not I'm just gonna find for now. So cortisol is what a gazelle would feel when it sees a lion 2 feet away. So cortisol is I'm gonna die right now. Or or or just just just to as a gazelle, if if I feel like I'm being cut off from the herd, I'm gonna feel cortisol. Exactly. And if I'm feeling the pain of the lion's claws, I'm gonna feel cortisol. If I'm starving and have any internal relief, I'm gonna feel cortisol. So it's sort of the universal. And what what I would say is it feels bad for a reason because in the state of nature, that works. The bad feeling is you just stop whatever else you're doing and focus on whatever this thing is. So your job is to say, okay. Is that that feeling serving a good purpose? Like, I really should be paying attention to this other thing, or is that bad feeling just an old circuit from the past? So for example, let's say that my business has had a setback for some reason. Is that giving me a really valuable survival message? Like, woah. I really need to have a more balanced income stream, or is that an old, you know, what table am I sitting at at high school feeling? And one thing and, of course, life is complicated. It's a it's a it's a combination maybe of both, but what is what is my next best step? And that's the great thing about our brain. If I decide, well, what's really my problem? Is it that I want respect or I want belonging or I really need money and really have a survival issue? And then I say, okay. What's my next now that I've decided what the problem is, what's my next step? The minute you figure out your next step, you feel okay because your brain starts releasing dopamine. It's like, oh, I know what I need to do. Okay. I'm doing it. And so okay. So in this case, you know, you have a a setback in the business. If you start brainstorming on the next steps that might increase dopamine, it might increase in some cases serotonin. If you work it out with your team, it might create increase oxytocin. So there's a bunch of things that you can do in that case to sort of, downplay the cortisol. Yes. But when I say brainstorming, when you say brainstorming, it has to be in a way that your brain believes in order to stimulate the dopamine. In other words, you have to generate a next step that you believe that you can do and it will work. You know in some cases it's it's really hard. Like I just remember so so my dad, lost his business when I was young and it was always there was it's weird thinking about it now. There was always this dopamine thing I'm gonna say that was going on, which he always said next month, the big deal is coming through and then it would never happen. It would always be the next month. And so now as an adult, when I whenever over the past 15 years, when I've had setbacks in my business, my brain instantly goes to this place where I'm just gonna totally go broke and I get scared to death. And so I know that that on the one hand, part of this is coming from these feelings of childhood. But on the other hand, I'm sure there's just this you you know, I do need to, figure out how to avoid the financial setbacks, but also these these neurochemicals are being, going crazy. Yep. Yep. You know what? I have an exact equivalent of that, but mine is about my mother and it's not about money, but it's some other issue that my mother probably has. Like like what? I don't know if we have Well, what's the issue? You can tell me. No. No one's listening. But, just to before I forget, and I will, what was the answer to I'm trying to remember I had an answer to the question. Oh, so the neurochemicals are still going crazy, And, oh, here's here's what I do for that. So, you why are you having these feelings is because maybe your father took really big risks, and maybe you're taking really big risks, or maybe you're not really taking the really big risk. So how much danger am I in to try to make a decision in the present? So all that matters is the present. And then to say, part of part of it is to say, you know what? I'm never gonna solve that problem. I'm always gonna have to solve I'm always gonna have that problem because I've chosen to live that life. I've chosen to take big risks or whatever. You know what I mean? So now I'll tell you my mother's thing. So my mother, like, she didn't really fit in anywhere for lots of really reasons that were, like, really not her fault. But she really indoctrinated me to not What were what was an example reason? Oh, well, I have in my book. I mean, she was really severely abused and neglected and just had a horrible, horrible life. So, and and on top of all of that, her family moved her 12 times 11 times. And by the time she was 14, and she was deeply shamed, because of really bad things going on in her family that anyone would feel shame about. And then she was, obese, and she had to be like the parent for her younger siblings, but she didn't really get to connect to socialize. So everything. You know? So she raised me whining I said whining. You know? She would cry on my shoulder all the time about how she how she was being rejected by this one and that one. And, the other reason, you know, she she really did well. She sort of worked her way out of the ghetto. So there we were, you know, in a in a nice middle class school district where she didn't belong, she felt. But, you know, like, I I mean so then I brought my kids to a nice middle class school district, and I wasn't really interested in when people were talking about this and that, but I don't wanna hate them either. But then, you know, when I was a college professor, people would talk about blah blah blah. I wasn't that interested either. So then I would try I would be interested in people dealing with, you know, addictions and things like that. And then when I hear what they're talking about, I don't I don't really know. You know? So any group I'm in, so then I I love to travel. I'm around people talking about travel, but but I'm not really. So whatever group I'm in, I I don't like, I'm not really into their thing. And so I think, oh my god. I'm doing what my mother raised me to do. Which is not to which is to avoid feeling like you have to join the herd. Yes. But then my inner mouth was feeling like I'm gonna be I'm not getting the benefits of the herd. And then I say to myself, you know what? It's it's I'm not just inventing this. It's really true. We have a trade off. If you're in the herd, then they expect you to agree with them. But if you're not in the herd, then you don't get the benefits. So on some level, everybody has to choose. I'm choosing, and the best I could do is not torture myself about the choices I'm making. Yeah. So but it it does seem though there are positive ways to live life so that in general, you have a higher state of, kind of positive happy chemicals coursing through your your body and your brain and so on to to in general deal with these situations. So for instance, take take you and me both. We both have blogs. If on one day I have less blog views than the day before, I I I don't wanna say I get totally anxious, but I feel like, oh, did I do something that people didn't like? And I feel a little bad, and maybe maybe you feel the same way. I don't know. But some people so funny. I'm so glad you raised it. So so here's it's a catch 22. So I have not looked at my numbers in, like, 2 weeks because of this. And then I I can't decide what's what's better, to look or to not look. If I look, then I feel great when I when my numbers go up. And then what happens? It's that's it's physically the same as addiction because when I feel great, that wires in a new pathway. But now I need that number in order to feel great, and anything below that number feels bad. Do I want that? Right. So the question so so so some people write and have confidence in their in their writing and don't care as much about the numbers. I I care about my numbers for instance. And, you know, again, is there kind of a a healthy way to live or health healthy exercises to do with your brain so that, yes, you can give it your all, but not attach the outcome to any specific metrics? Well, there's still that word out. You know? So, I I on some level, we're always gonna be evaluating the outcome. And when I say, you know, my inner mammal is constantly focused on meeting my needs. And if my needs are already met, then it's gonna circle out and try to meet the needs of the next generation. Because if you've studied about natural selection, your brain is always trying to spread your genes. So it it never says, oh, I've got enough. I can just sit back. But when you read about animal behavior, they're constantly what's the next thing I can do to spread my genes? And sometimes to the point where they sacrifice their lives just to make so they can spread their genes. So I have to consciously build a circuit that says, I have I've done enough. I have enough. It's enough. I'm gonna take a rest, and I'm gonna feel good about taking a rest. I don't need anything. You know, I I don't need anything. What if you're wrong? Like, what if you do need? What if I'm wrong? Like, what if like like, seriously, like, what if you did need more blog views in fact because you wanna get your message out? Why do you need to get your message out? Because that's leaving a legacy also just like just like having children. Okay. So then that's good. I agree with, like, legacy is a is a honest goal or to be honest when that's really what people care about To say, okay. How will I leave more legacy if I stress myself over this instance or develop a level of calm that will allow me to invest myself in more efforts over time? So part of the choice. What's this I say and that's a choice that nobody nobody can make that decision but me, and all I can say is, wow. I'm so lucky that I get to make that decision rather than have the decision forced on me. So that's sort of like the the 3 minute technique. Like, okay, some cortisol is shooting in my body because of, I have less blog views which is something that for 3 for 200,000,000 years nobody ever worried about but now for the past 5 years, people worry about. So cortisol is going in my body. I'm gonna notice it and I'm gonna actively attempt to achieve some calm whether it's meditation or exercise or some other kind of happiness distraction or whatever. Is is that the 3 minute I get? I really love the self acceptance piece. So when you said, you know, I I do want acceptance and belonging, and I feel like nobody cares about me. So, I wrote a blog post called the urge to be heard at your core. So we are born with this desperate feeling of, like, I'm gonna die if I'm ignored, And we all have that feeling. So doesn't mean something went wrong with your childhood. It doesn't mean you're messing up today. It doesn't mean the system is bad. We're all born with that sense of, like, if if people ignore me, I'm gonna die. And it's like the gift of life is to say, I'm gonna have that feeling as long as I'm alive, but I'm damn lucky to be alive to be managing that feeling. So you have to manage that feeling all the time. Yeah. What are the best ways to manage that that feeling? So I would start with, self acceptance, and then my next thing is variety. So if I say, I only feel good if I when I do x. But if I do x all the time, it's not gonna feel good. So I sort of rotate. So I say, I'm never gonna have coffee more than twice a week. I'm gonna have a drink twice a week. I just you know what? I just watched the Mindy project before you talk. You know? So I only have a few of them. You know? That's gonna on now. But, yeah, I have, like, things then I have this that makes me feel good. I have that that makes me feel good, and I have enough variety because if I rely too much on anyone, it's not gonna feel good forever. In my book, I give an example. If you have a certain song that makes you feel good, but if you listen to it all the time, not gonna make you feel good. But then then nothing else works. So take a new song, it doesn't feel good yet. But if you start listening to it, it will get into the sweet spot where it makes you feel good. Because in a book called flow, he talks about if something is totally unfamiliar, it doesn't stimulate your dopamine. But if it's too familiar, it doesn't stimulate your dopamine. It has to be in that in between spot. And how can something be in that between spot if you're continually putting new irons in the fire? So so it's interesting. So I'm gonna I'm gonna, try to make it actionable and and you tell me if I'm correct or not. So one thing some a listener can do or I could do is make a list of all the sorts of things that make me happy. So for instance, having higher blog views or listening to music or spending quality time with my wife or kids or whatever. So make a list of all these things and then even within those things, make a list of how those things could have variety. So, so with music, yes, these 5 songs I can listen to over and over again, but maybe I should try listening to another 5 songs. Or, here's things that, you know, here's the routine my wife and I have every day. Maybe here are 10 things outside of that routine that also I could start doing or I don't know. So I'm just trying to think of how to have Absolutely. So that's that's interesting. Except oh, can I just say one thing? The the 5 new statements may not make you feel good on the way on the date that you feel awful. So I might save them for, like, a special time, like, on a day that I feel good, I'm gonna break in my new shoes rather than breaking in my new shoes on a day that I'm my feet already hurt. Right. So so Another thing. So so for instance, if my business just had a bad month, that probably shouldn't be the day I go start tango lessons with my wife. It's depending on whether you're sure that's gonna make you feel good or whether you're not sure. No. It's it's gonna make me feel bad. But, also, what if a person says, oh, I never have a good day. I always feel no. No. No. No. You know, that that's you know? I don't know. But, one other thing that I wanna mention is control. If this list you're talking about, if it's things you have control over. So when I go and check my numbers, I don't know if they're gonna be up or down, so I don't really have control over whether that's gonna make me feel good. So I save that for a day. I'm very careful. I sorta have, like, I forgot what the word, buffer is the word I'm looking for. I like a buffer. Like, okay. Today's the day where I don't have anything else that's scary on my agenda. So today's the day when I can do another scary thing. So I always try to have, like, you know, buffer time. Okay. I'm gonna do only one scary thing a day, and I'm gonna do it in the morning at a time when I have something sort of fun after that. You know what I mean? So, like, what's an example scary thing for you? What's a scary thing for me? Yeah. Checking my number is 1. So there are certain websites that I I anticipate being criticized, and I would anticipate, posting on them that I might be criticized. And I'll I'll tell you what that is. It's, people who are credentialed in psychology and psychology heavily dislike people doing what I'm doing. One reason is because it doesn't help me, okeydokey, of today's psychology, and I it's the the victim thing that, people who think, well, we're all victims of a bad system, then they really dislike my message. So I feel like I should make some efforts to communicate with them because they're just they're just victims of the system. I could say use their language. And then when I post, I've learned now that I don't get hate mail, which is nice, but I get ignored. So I still okay. Okay. So I'm gonna do that. I may be ignored. Then I say, okay. What else can I think of? Take a next step that I haven't tried, and I may be totally ignored. So that would be an example of something scary. So so, you you know, it's interesting. I do my own technique, which is I try to, imagine that, an alien, from another galaxy just landed in my body and is only gonna be in this body for 24 hours. And he's inherited all of my memories, but he doesn't have any of my real past. He's an alien. And now he just has to make my life better for these 24 hours. And so the idea is I'm trying to almost, get rid of any kind of past feelings because they don't matter because I'm an alien from outer space, and then I do my daily activities. That's good. That's good. That that's my hypnosis technique. But I'll tell you, if I feel like my my book numbers are going down or my page view numbers are going down, it's, or if I get too much hate mail in a day, that, I can't help but, feel a little bad about that. So so so what I'm asking is, is it better to kind of keep a high state of oxytocin, for instance. So so be around people I love and trust more than taking the risk of being around people I don't love and trust as much. Well but if you're only gonna be around them and then you never gonna take the risk of doing the things that you really would wanna do to get your page numbers up, and then, like, 5 years from now, you're not gonna have you know, what if I do this and it works? Then in the future, I'm gonna have more dopamine. So you know what? We're always making decisions. How much should I invest in short run well-being? How much should I invest in long run well-being? How much should I invest in medium term? So if we're constantly varying how much we invest in the short run good feeling versus what will make me feel good in the long run and have some medium goals too. I I think the important lesson here is that, happiness, most people don't realize is really just based on the different, you know, 200,000,000 year development of these neurochemicals and that kind of more and I'm I'm gonna use the word goal, even though I know it's it's not such so good. But better to think of things in terms of how calm can I be? How can I navigate the the the the constant rise and fall of these different neurochemicals? Yeah. But we don't have as much control over them as we'd like. And the only thing we have control over, that's what I should explain because your alien is a great example of this is why the alien thing works. So I have billions of neurons, but I have limited number of connections between them. Now when I was born, you know, we start learning we start losing neurons by the time we're 2 years old. So, you know, don't worry about aging because you're already aging when you were 2 years old. And that's good. I I was aging the second I born. I was born. Yeah. Yeah. So a baby pays equal attention to everything, but you and I are making careful decisions about what we pay attention to. And what we pay attention to is partly a function of the neural pathways we already have because electricity can flow effortlessly through those pathways. And in fact, that's what feels normal because your electricity is just flowing without you having to make an effort. But if I did that, I would be running on automatic pilot all the time. So we have a very limited bandwidth to do something different, and that is making neurons trigger that are not already bridged to each other. And how can I do that? It's not that easy. So when you visualize yourself being an alien, you were getting your electricity away from the well trodden pathways to make it easier for your electricity to move to the new pathways that we can't activate, but it takes so much focus that you gotta let go of other things in order to do it. So so what would you recommend? Like, what you're really talking about is a little bit each day, it we should do something that kind of gets us uncomfortably out of our comfort zone just so we could almost widen that comfort zone where, you know, different neurochemicals could operate and we and and we rebuild different pathways that might have built up, over decades. So so what what are some things that you do to kind of get yourself out of your comfort zone? Oh, good. And, actually, I I lost my turn. But when you were saying about the comfort zone, okay. Let's see. What what are some of the things I do? When I notice myself anticipating, oh, so and so is gonna hate my work. Oh, that's what I remember I say, that the pathway will build so it will get easier and easier. Yes. And and also that you wanna connect that pathway to a specific happy chemical. So I'm I'm sort of aware when something I do to get out of my comfort zone, is it to get out of my oxytocin comfort zone or my dopamine, you know, whatever. So I think So so you identify the the specific neurochemical that that is that zone that you're getting out of. Yeah. So I anticipate somebody so and so is gonna hate my work, but I would really like their attention. So so this is gonna affect your serotonin because serotonin is sort of the the alpha male to omega male, neurochemical. So this is gonna affect your serotonin comfort zone. Right. Exactly. But, also, what if that if you have, like, a newborn gazelle that's separated from its mother and the gazelle thinks, I need that attachment or I'm gonna be eaten by a wolf. So that's, you know, the part of me that says if they ignore me, I'm threatened. So but yet, you know, my therapist has taught me. If I say, whoop, this is s**t. I don't need their attention. Then, you know, they will always be in the same loop. So to say, I'm gonna take the risk of wanting their attention knowing that they might sneer at me. And I have to say my husband's a scientist, and, you know, when I see scientists, like, sneering at each other, it's like, oh, that's not me. That's what they do. You know? So I was like, oh, so it's not gonna kill me if they sneer at me. It's not gonna kill me if they ignore me. So what it is is the self acceptance thing of I'm pressuring myself to make to make the best use of my time. And if I try to reach out to this person, the pro they may ignore me, and they may waste my time. And then I'm gonna say, oh my god. Why haven't I get anything done? I'm wasting my time. And then to say, oh, that's my legacy, my my mammalian fear of mortality. And then to say, you know what? I'm making hard choices. I'm taking risks. I can't guarantee the outcome. And that's a success because I decided that that's what I was gonna do is to try to do hard things, and I've done it. So now I could check that off the list. So so I wonder if you can combine that way of thinking with your it takes 45 days to develop a habit. So I'm gonna for the next 45 days, I'm gonna make sure I do things that make me feel incredibly uncomfortable. Not necessarily things that are bad for me, but things that are making me uncomfortable. I'm gonna try to do for 45 days. Yeah. But just to be sure, not all day every day. You know? But just in a time period when you have a buffer, not ignite when you're exhausted, not just before you're going to check your numbers, but in a time period just before you have something good going on so that you could let go of the bad feeling afterwards. Yeah. Interesting. So, And then not to constantly check for the result. So I have I have one friend who told me recently that he feels he has a high level a a naturally high level of endorphins constantly being released. He was telling me, for instance, he doesn't really ever take painkillers, like, after a dental surgery or things like that. So endorphins isn't a happy chemical we haven't spoken about, but it's the one that gets triggered, like, when you're feeling pain, like, runner's high or or and things like that. And he and he was telling me he he thinks he has a naturally high level of endorphins, so he doesn't feel as much pain physical pain as maybe other people do. Do you think that having naturally high levels of any of these neurochemicals is possible or something we could strive for? I think it's absolutely possible because we talked about the myelinated pathways when you were young. So, yeah, it's possible that a person got well wired for one particular thing, but there's a thing we haven't talked about yet called habituation. So all of these things, by the way, on my home page, intermammalinstitute.org, if you scroll all the way to the bottom, I have all of this summarized in 3 minutes. So habituation is the idea that your brain constantly gets used to whatever you're experiencing. So if I'm in a certain level of pain and then I have endorphin, but then my brain's gonna get used to that, and it will only release the endorphin if I have even more pain, which is why runners who have runners high, they can't get the high from running the same amount. They have to constantly run more and more and more. And even I hate to say this, but an anorexic gets endorphin when they starve, but then they have to starve more and more. And heroin addict endorphin is heroin. A heroin addict has to take more and more. That's how the brain works. I see. And then so, like, let's take the case of an anorexic. Clearly, everybody including the anorexic might identify anorexia as a bad thing because it might lead to death. But but it'll take it will take and and there might be a lot of reasons why someone's an anorexic. Maybe they feel they'll belong more, so that's, kind of oxytocin and and perhaps serotonin or or or, you know, any any of these neurochemicals. But but you're saying they have to essentially be strapped down and fed food for, like, 45 days even if they don't enjoy it in order for them to get over it. Yeah. But, obviously, it's all it took was eating food for them to get over it. You know? I I mean, it a a lot of anorexics, first, let let me just explain. I'm just writing that down so I don't forget it. A lot of people use the word endorphin as a synonym for all the happy chemicals. So we really should explain clearly what endorphin is. The picture I have on my website, if you watch, I love nature documentaries. So they're the best source of information. So when a lion rips into a zebra and the zebra's flesh is hanging open and the zebra can still run to save its life, that's endorphin. It did not evolve for you to sit around and be happy on the couch. It evolved to mask pain for 15 minutes while you run to save your life. After 15 minutes, pain is good because you need to know that you're injured so that you protect your injuries. So don't use endorphin as a synonym for, like, happy chemicals in general. It's pain. So when you're very hungry, your brain releases endorphin because it's pain. And in the state of nature, that's how, like, an animal is afraid of getting eaten by a tiger, but it's in so much pain from hunger that it takes a risk of, you know, going or I'm paying for thirst. So I go toward the waterhole where the crocodile bit me yesterday. So I have the pain circuit from the cortisol, but I have the pain circuit from the hunger. And so which one is triggering more cortisol that I go to release first? So the anorexic is saying that if people don't like me because they think I'm fat, that's more painful than hunger, which is obviously not rational, but that circuit got so big that that they're stuck until they build new circuits. Interesting. And the way they build new circuits is over this 45 day habit breaking process. Right. And how did you come up with the number 45 days? Because I've heard different numbers on changing habits. Yes. Everyone says that. So the way I came up with it is I went to this Kundalini yoga class, and I I you know, I went to a bunch of them. And they tell you to sit there with your hands folded, and then you notice which thumb is on top. And that's just the accident of your wiring. And then they tell you to put the other thumb on top, and it feels strange. My yoga teacher uses this great expression. She says, it feels like you're holding somebody else's hand. And so even though there's no emotional baggage attached to putting a different thumb on top of the other thumb that it feels totally weird. And so that's how deep our wiring is, and they said that it takes 45 days to wire yourself to feel normal with the other thumb on top. And I like that metaphor because it says nothing's wrong with me. It's just wiring your old wiring is natural and new wiring is hard to create. Gosh. You know, it's really hard to be a mammal. Yes. I do. That's my slogan on all my website. It's not easy being mammal. Like, reptiles, they just get, like, dropped out of the mother, and they're off on their own. Their brains are are about as done as they can get, and they just figure it out from there. Yes. Thank you for quoting me. Oh, is that a quote from you? Most of them get eaten. Look. I just I just plagiarized you again. I didn't even I wasn't even aware of it. Yeah. Thank you. And that's from I have a slideshow called it's not easy being a mammal. And most reptiles get eaten in front of their mother, and if they when they're born, if they don't run away from home fast enough, their mother eats them. And they don't stress. But they stress about, getting enough food and getting enough sun. So don't think animals are happy all the time. They're stressing too. Now do we take anything from reptilian mammals? Like, so we, we want food and we like to be in the sun as well. So part of our brains must still have a reptilian brain. Yes. Exactly. And that's what doctor call metabolism. Anything related to your metabolism is run by your reptile brain because evolution always, con continues with with what's there and adapts onto it. So, your metabolism is partly, you know, textbook medicine, but partly learned. A big part of it is learned. So how my my particular issue, like, how deep I breathe or don't breathe deep is learned. So when I breathe, like, every muscle in my body is part of that learned pattern. And the example I use is if you see a baby crying, you put it on your shoulder, and you pat it back, that your hand is on the place where not only where the cortisol is produced, but where all the breathing muscles and the diaphragm are learning how to create a feeling of calm. And I my body didn't learn that very well, and I'm trying to relearn it. Well, it's funny because, again, most people think the brain and even on the cover of Meet Your Happy Chemicals, you have a picture of the brain, which is kind of that organ on top of our head, but but the the brain really is this system that goes from your stomach to your to your head. And and I I forget, maybe you mentioned, we have more serotonin, like, in our gut or or we have a significant amount of serotonin, these neurochemicals in our gut as our brain. And I guess because in the reptilian system, the serotonin which is related to metabolism is is hanging out there in the gut, and we inherit that from them. Yes. And even before reptiles, serotonin is in mollusks and amoeba. Isn't that amazing? And that's why It's so funny that that it's so funny that this drug that that basically anti a lot of antidepressants, a whole family of antidepressants is related to, I guess, boosting your serotonin levels, and it's funny how this is the one neurochemical that goes all the way back to amoebas. Well, that's funny that you think it's the one neurochemical that goes all the way back. It's not the one, and I think they all go all the way back, but it's the one that I researched more because I I felt towards that I was taking it and out on the limb position of that serotonin. So now I'm starting to research dopamine. I guess what I learned, Plants have dopamine. It helps them decide to grow toward the light. Isn't that amazing? Is that why It's mind blowing. Is that why when there's studies that show when we talk to plants, they tend to to grow better and survive more? You know, I don't know. That's so funny that you asked that because one of my big, you know, alternative activities is I judge science fairs. And and, frankly, we do tend to groan a little when we see that study, about talking to plants. And so I have to confess. I I don't I've always been around scientists who've grown at that, but I don't know. So I will I will try. I mean, a scientist would say that talking to the plant rewards you, and therefore, you remember better to take care of it. But That's But here's the important part. Because people don't like when I talk about that animals have conflict because everybody wants to think conflict is caused by society. But, animals have conflict, and even plants have conflict. So that's how I started studying plants. Now even plants make decisions. So a plant has metabolism where at some point, they have to decide how much energy am I gonna invest in growth versus, I don't even know the terminology with plants, you know, like storing energy versus spending energy. That's really the core decision. Interesting. So what what I'm what I'm getting out of all of this is that essentially variety helps us deal with the different inevitable ups and downs of our neurochemicals. And so forget all about not forget about, but people focusing on the question, am I happy or not? That's always gonna be an up or down. But kind of living a more fulfilled life, accepts the fact that each neurochemical is gonna go up and down and understanding that and noticing that and maybe even thinking about which neurochemical so you you know how to balance it. This is this is a helpful activity. Right. And you know what the other thing is when you have the self trust to say, when I feel down, there are things I can do to feel better. I have confidence that they'll work, and I've developed things I could do to feel better, better sustainable in the long run rather than something that if I keep doing it, it's gonna kill me. And you know, I think this is something and this could be the final question for you, but I think this is related to the fact that, you know, so humans evolved, homo sapiens as opposed to let's say prior mammals evolved this prefrontal cortex that allows us to adapt to different ecospheres, which is how we were able to kind of roam around from, the hot savannah to cold Europe to other different environments. And this also allows us to kind of adapt to different social hierarchies. So I might be in a social hierarchy at my workplace where I my serotonin goes up or down whether I'm promoted or not or whether or my dopamine goes up or down if I think I'm gonna get promoted, and I can switch from that to the social hierarchy of my friends or my family or another job or an entrepreneurial activity. So where are are we the one mammal that can really adapt to a lot of different types of social hierarchies? Oh, good question. Mhmm. So so so then the idea is the idea is that when I'm down in one social hierarchy, I can switch to another one. Yes. That's that's what I I that's what I absolutely that's absolutely the conclusion of my book, IMAML. That, other animals are, like, sort of stuck in that social hierarchy, and they spend their whole lives fighting. They fight. But we can we're we're expected to not fight, and the way to do that, we expect to feel on top of the world all the time. Animals don't expect that. It I can invent a hierarchy in my brain that puts me on top, and that's what most people do. But they do it with anger. A lot of people think, oh, those idiots, I'm better than them. And if you need to get your serotonin through anger, then that's also gonna hurt you in the long run. So, I try to find non angry ways to do it. And what I always mention, the way I do it is I compare myself to, well, I compare myself to my ancestors, and I think, wow. I have so much better than them. And then I compare myself to my daily things to do list and just compare myself without anger. Interesting. Alright. Well well, Loretta Bruning, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. I, again, highly recommend both first off, I had originally read Meet Your Happy Chemicals. I think I probably read it right when it came out. It came out in in 2012. And then, you know, who recommended, imamil to me, and I didn't even know it was the same author until I started reading it, was, Tucker Max. I I don't know if you know who he is. He's written a bunch of, yeah, he's written a funny books, kind of this genre called Frat Tire, and he works with Jeff Miller who's also an evolutionary psychologist. And he recommended to me that I read imamil, which I did, and it was great. Oh, great. Thank you so much. Well, just to mention that there's one more in the series called Beyond Synagogue. I I just noticed that. I didn't know that till today, and I'm gonna have to read that. What what's that about? The subtitle is transcend your mammalian negativity. So you may not live in the world that I live in where everyone is constantly focusing on, ugh, the world is so awful. It's almost like instead of, hello, how are you? It's like, oh god. Things are so awful. And if you choose not to think that way and feel that way, how to create an alternative, even when you live in a world where everybody else lives that way. Well, okay. So here's here's then one more question. Let's say like, I'm not a very cynical person and but but I deal with cynical people. So let's say someone calls me up and they're always complaining how awful things are. What do I do with them? You know, it's uh-huh. You've you've gotten someone. That's what my sore spot. So my first my first thing is to protect myself. Like, I I am I I don't like being around it, and it really is unpleasant for me. So to first say, I'm in control of how much of my life I spend around this. Then I can make a conscious decision. Do I wanna help this person? Yes. How much time do I wanna spend on this per on this? Then the next thing is my my experience is that people often rage at you if you don't go along. They expect you to go along with that view. And if you don't go along, they're furious at you. So I don't try to challenge them unless I I have a a real conscious reason. I see. But let's say someone calls you up and they're spending an hour complaining on the phone. What do you do? Are you saying social call or a person that you're coaching? Social call. Your mother. I told you this is this is not my I have cut those people out, and anybody left in my life doesn't do that because you know why? They do it because you're rewarding them. If you don't reward it, then they go away. Because they're doing it for you to say, yeah. You're right. Everybody's a jerk. You're good. Everybody else is bad. And if you don't say that, they go away. You know what's funny? I also cut them out, and I've written that, and I've gotten criticism. Oh, that's selfish. You always should be you should be there for them. And I just I don't respond to those people either, but that is the criticism. Yes. I wrote a few blog posts on that, and I call it the unreasonable empathy request. Yeah. I like that. I'm gonna start using that. That was an unreasonable empathy request. Yeah. I hate it. I hate it. But I'm not like, if if everybody did what I'm doing, I'm afraid that you would be ostracized from the modern world because you it really is the the culture today. Well, two two points to that. One is I like the fact that it's almost like you're a a people whisperer. Like, you're training them to I'll take your call as long as you're not gonna complain the whole time. So so you're training them a little bit. It's sort of like the dog whisperer. And, the other thing is when you say if everybody acted like this, whenever someone gives me that argument, I always say if everybody wanted world peace, then there would be world peace. Like, it's just never gonna be the case that everybody's gonna think the same way. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. So that's my those are my my mental tricks for that. But, again, meet your happy chemicals, imammo, and beyond cynical. I'm gonna read that one. I'm gonna download it today. And I really appreciate this. Loretta Bruning, b r e u n I n g. And we can also find all of your stuff at innermammalinstitute.org, or you also have a blog on Psychology Today, but you link to it on your website. And I really appreciate the time you spent, on this podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you. I enjoyed talking to you, James. I enjoyed it also, Loretta. Thanks. Bye. Bye. 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